Episode 229: Senior Dogs, Dementia, and Brain Games with Kay Attwood

UK dog trainer Kay Attwood joins Victoria to share behind-the-scenes stories from her new UK TV series, Wagging Rights, which features comedians and their dogs, and why she never hesitated to speak up for the dogs on set. She then explains what canine cognition really means and how brain games can transform the way dogs and their people work together.

The conversation turns to dementia in senior dogs: the early signs that are often mistaken for "naughty" behavior, whether enrichment still helps, and simple ways guardians can make life easier for a dog whose world is changing. Drawing on their own experiences caring for aging dogs, Victoria and Kay offer insight and compassion for anyone sharing their home with a senior dog.

TRANSCRIPT:

Victoria (00:13)

I have asked Kay Atwood to come back because she did such an amazing talk about senior dogs and cognition in senior dogs that I've asked her to come back on the podcast because there were so many questions that Kay had, and she basically managed to answer all of them. However, I thought some of these questions are so good, and I want listeners who didn't attend the DBC.

To hear the answers. So, Kay, I'm so glad you are back. She is a dog trainer, K9 Services, from the UK. And it's very exciting. You will be able to see her on UK TV. But I will let her explain. So Kay, welcome back to the podcast.

Kay Attwood (01:00)

Thank you, pleasure to be back.

Victoria (01:03)

Tell us about first of all your TV show.

Kay Attwood (01:09)

right. Well, it's called Wagging Rights. And it's all about, it's not a behavior program. It's an entertainment program. And there's going to be, you're going to see some tears and you're going to see lots of laughter because this series, because they do plan to have other series, this series was comedians and their dogs.

Victoria (01:30)

so

Kay Attwood (01:32)

So we had, I know. we had K. Curd with his Rock Byler riot.

who is an absolute dream of a girl. What an ambassador for the breed she is. We've got Rod Gilbert with his miniature Labradoodle, Pixon, who he hasn't done any training with whatsoever, which he acknowledged from the very word go. We've got Sarah Pascoe with her little Jack Russell cross called Mouse. Cute little.

Victoria (02:00)

Well that's an im that's a brilliant name for a dog.

Kay Attwood (02:04)

I

know, Mouse, absolutely great. And she had clothing with his picture on and everything. It was just so sweet. And we've got Harriet Kemsley with her dog, Sunny, a very, very nervous, very sensitive little thing, but as cute as a button. And we've also then we've got Vicki Patterson and her dog, Milo. Now Vicki Patterson is as mad as a box of frogs. Chaos.

everywhere. Anyone who knows who I'm talking about goes, yeah, absolutely, that's Vicky, but she's so fun. They're all hilarious. We have laughed so much filming, but we finished filming now. We've done the grand finale, which I can't reveal anything from that course, but it's going to be so interesting and so exciting because it's about, there's going to be some educational things in there, things for people to take away of value, of course.

but it's mostly entertainment. at the end of the day, it's a competition. So they're in competition with each other and they've started. And the very, very thing that was absolutely obvious to me was how much they absolutely adore their dogs. But at the end of the series, the other thing that was absolutely obvious to me is how much now they learn training their dogs. How wonderful is that?

I mean, we all have busy lives, not just celebrities. And sometimes there isn't time to do as much training as you would like if you do any. But I think they found the value of this and they now fully understand they're gonna go away and continue training their dogs. Because now they see the value of it and how much it's changed their lives with their dogs. I mean, that to me is absolute gold.

Victoria (03:55)

And if you do it right, dogs love learning.

Kay Attwood (03:59)

absolutely, these dogs have had a ball. We've all had a ball. It's been such fun, it really has.

Victoria (04:05)

When are people gonna be able to see it? 'Cause I know television's strange, like the the but when sort of, kind of.

Kay Attwood (04:13)

Well, they're saying in the autumn, possibly September is when they're aiming for. That's when UK TV would like it shown. Right. So it's going to be on Dave and you, you, Dave, et cetera. So they're frantically editing it now to quickly get it out on time. So September, autumny time.

Victoria (04:34)

Okay, amazing. Well, congratulations. before we talk about cognition, what were some of the things that stood out to you about filming a show? What was something that maybe surprised you?

Kay Attwood (04:48)

that nothing is filmed in a chronological order at all. You would expect to start at the beginning and film it as it goes and then end, but it didn't happen like that at all. How much small detail matters for continuity. That was, you know, interesting. And I think the word Kamal told me about this. And he said about, you know,

The word that springs to mind whenever you do TV is pivot. Because they pivot and they change their mind and that's exactly what happened continually. So you just have to just sit back and relax and go with the flow and think, okay, well, I've been told to do that. No, okay, we've changed your mind. Right, okay, I won't do that. I'll do this and July. Okay.

Victoria (05:38)

Yeah, you do have to be

you do have to be flexible. and on the Dog Academy when it was usually because they were so because it's lots fixed camera stuff and all of this, and it was so like to the to the minute almost about when we did this and this and this and this, we were the ones that pivoted. The trainers were the ones that were like, nope, not working, done need to go in a new place and do this and that and that and because we would discover

even after like meticulous planning and also you know, we get to know cases pretty well even before we see them, but when we see them is the first time that we actually do see them, you you you suddenly see that something else is going on or the dog needs something else or the environment's too much. Then you have to pivot. Yeah. So flix flexibility is important.

Kay Attwood (06:32)

Yeah, and don't take anything to heart. We know when someone says, can you do this 100 times? Can you move to the left? Can you move to the right? Two paces to the left, please. Can you move back to the right? You know, just just don't take it to heart, you know, but you're absolutely right. You know, not just in TV. When you start working with the dog and you go there with the thought because it's been planted in your head, for example, I'm going for resource guarding issues and you get there and you think, actually, this isn't resource guarding.

It's something completely different. And I kind of saw that with the celebrities dogs too. Because a couple of them was talking about issues that they were having at home, which I'm not sure if some will make the cut or whatever. I didn't do any because the people that I saw, did I see anyone with mentioned issues? Possibly, I can't remember. mean, that's the other thing. Everything goes so quick. It's like, gosh, what day of the week is it?

Victoria (07:31)

no.

Kay Attwood (07:32)

and spent two weeks at a time on the road going from one place to another in different hotels every night. Sounds absolutely amazing and it was, but gosh, it's so tiring.

Victoria (07:43)

it's tiring. Whenever we do, it's me or the dog. It's a five week filming block where we are again going from location to location to location. We have one and a half days with each family and five weeks to film. the last the last one I literally had one and a half days off in that five weeks. But didn't you find Kay though, that you kind of got into a rhythm and you were like, This is what I'm doing?

And I'm just doing it. And you just go. You go. It's like you find energy from somewhere and you just you just go.

Kay Attwood (08:19)

Yeah, I mean, I'm quite an organized person anyway. So I had all my outfits for various episodes and I labeled them. So I knew exactly what I had to wear and I made sure that I'd photographs of what I was wearing for continuity and that type of thing. although I'd never done TB before, because I'm fairly organized, just thought I just did get into that quite easily and it didn't.

And here's the other thing that absolutely worked in my favor is that because I'm used to presenting and used to talking to people, know, large audiences and used to talking to people in classes, maybe on a much smaller scale, but I'm talking about something that I know and I'm very comfortable about talking about it. Therefore, I wasn't fazed about it at all. The cameras were just people. They were people behind these machines.

So the cameras didn't bother me one bit at all. I never went on set feeling nervous ever.

Victoria (09:23)

Isn't that, you know, when you are so comfortable with what you do and you are so passionate about what

Kay Attwood (09:30)

Yep.

Victoria (09:31)

you just do it. And the cameras will I mean obviously there's you go you've gotta you've gotta be cognizant of your space and the timing and the dog and the person and the camera and that so you have to be an absolute meticulous multitasker when you're filming this stuff.

You have to have awareness everywhere. But when it's something that you love doing, it's almost like, okay, turn that camera on me. Are you ready? Right, let's just go.

Kay Attwood (10:03)

Yeah, yeah. But you know, there was quite a few times where they actually said, my gosh, you've turned into a director. And they weren't saying that being funny. They were being, it was a compliment because I would say, actually, can I just move that over there? Can I move that dog around there? Or do you mind if I don't have the dog coming in that way because of that? He's not really comfortable there. Because, you know, it wasn't just the dog welfare expert on scene that had the power.

if you want to call it that, to say stop, the dog isn't comfortable, we need to have a break. But we also had that power too. And we used it. Absolutely

Victoria (10:43)

Yeah.

Kay Attwood (10:44)

we did. And I didn't have any qualms about saying, no, I'm sorry, you need to stop, this dog is not comfortable right now. I think there was a time we were filming and one of the dogs, there was a big bang, a car, that's right, a car backfired.

And one of the dogs obviously was put out by that and couldn't perform of what we were trying to achieve filming. So I said, look, we're to have to cut here. And because the dog isn't comfortable with, he's not going to do it. And I don't really want him to do it under duress. I want him to do it because he wants to do it. And they were absolutely fine with that. But they have to be, you know, when you're working with animals, as you know, you know, you have to, they have to take your word as the dog expert.

on the show, which is how they cast me. I didn't say that.

Victoria (11:32)

No, but you are a joke, you are an expert.

Kay Attwood (11:34)

But when your knowledge is far greater than anyone else on set, they have to take, I mean, I couldn't say how to put their cameras together and how to turn them on. So I wouldn't dream of telling them how to do that. So nobody there said, no, no, no, no, we just need to get this shot. Because if they had, I would have said, no, no, no, no, you don't.

Victoria (11:55)

It I learned that very early on on it's Me or the Dog. And then also, you know, that that we just know dog comes first, dog person comes first, and and so when we had crew coming or or when it was like a new series and they were trying to find the crew for it, I'd be like everybody has to we we're A w we don't want egos here.

We want people that love dogs, but we also want people that are just gonna listen and understand what these dogs need and what they don't. And they don't need like seven crew members loving on them. They don't. They just, you know. And and that's why we had the same crews series after series after series, because these guys and girls knew and and were brilliant. And so and each production company I've worked with, for the most part

Have been great advocates for the dogs as well. And we'll listen. So, you know, we're so and I I think especially I don't know, maybe being English, I don't know. It's we we've we're it's harder to speak up for yourself, right? And but you ha

Kay Attwood (13:06)

It takes guts in that environment when you're not used to that. totally. For sure. But I knew I had to.

Victoria (13:12)

Yeah, you had to because you're it's your job, you're advocating for the dogs and

Kay Attwood (13:15)

Yeah.

Victoria (13:16)

exactly it. Well, very exciting, and it's called Wagging Rights, which I think is yeah a brilliant, brilliant title. I'm very excited to to hopefully see that. Hopefully for us here in the States it goes it streamed somewhere so that we can see it.

Kay Attwood (13:35)

I'm sure it will be.

Victoria (13:36)

I hope so. I hope so.

Okay, let's let's pivot, as we trainers are very good at doing. and let's talk about cognition. You have focused on the senior dog. So first of all, for people that are coming on here that aren't trainers that don't really understand what that word cognition is, can you describe it? What is cognition?

Kay Attwood (14:02)

It's an amazing word that has just, you know, it came on onto the dog training scene, you know, about five or six years ago, because nobody was ever using that word. I wasn't using it, but we were all actually using what it is. Some of us not as effectively as we could. But now everybody's learning about it, which for me is amazing. I love that fact, because if you're learning about cognition,

and you're using your dog's cognitive skills, you are getting the most out of your dog. And you're probably learning how to understand those dogs far better than ever before. Because if you can learn, let's equate it to a man. If you know how he thinks, you know what to expect of him and how, this is sounding terrible, isn't it?

Victoria (14:55)

Well

let's carry on it's no I don't think at all.

Kay Attwood (14:58)

But you're learning what to expect of him and how not to push him too far and that type of thing. So when you know how your dog thinks, and you say you've got several dogs in your home and they're all different personalities, they've all got a different range of cognitive skills. Some are going to be better at this and some will be better at that. And once you get to know all of that and you know your dog's inside out,

Gosh, you're opening up a whole new world of interaction with that dog and that dog interacting with you. Because the whole thing for me, when I first started, when I recognized it, what cognitive skills was, and that was purely because in my classes, I had people that kept coming back and I thought, well, what on earth am I going to do with them now? So I just thought, well, we've already got certain skill sets.

I wonder if they can do it like this, or I wonder if they could do it like that. So they forced me to think outside of the box. And for me, that was a whole new game for me, absolute game changer. But it was a whole new set of games, skills, that we were now playing in class time. And I'm being paid to do this. And that's when I thought, I can see these dogs working that out. And then I thought,

think this is going to be great and that's going to demonstrate and prove to me what I think I'm seeing. I'm going to give them a 50-50 choice, a yes or a no or is it this or that? And it was when I did that, that was absolutely clear to me that they were making a choice all on their own. And that's when I thought, we've been influencing choice all this time, but maybe we've been giving them too much choice.

So now that we limit the choice down, the dogs are now learning to be motivated and try harder because it's okay to make a choice. I don't need to sit back and wait to be lured. I'm going to come forward and say, I'm going to choose that. I want that one. And if I don't choose the right one, nothing happens. So then clearly you're left with, well, if that's wrong, that's got to be right. So now we had dogs that were far more successful.

in the tasks that we were doing with them. And to me, I mean, there were days, I'm going to admit this, that the tears ran when I was watching these people with their dogs going, my God, he's telling me what

Victoria (17:38)

He's telling me.

Kay Attwood (17:39)

he wants. they were then under, I'm all goosey now remembering.

Victoria (17:44)

Yeah.

Kay Attwood (17:45)

But to see these people working with the dogs and see their dogs working with these people in unison.

and now having a far better understanding. So that's your original question. know, what is cognition? It's a range of skills that the dog already has, but you may not have tapped into them. And it's about problem solving and memory and short-term memory and long-term memory and all sorts of things like teaching them that you can do this if you try, but to use that brain.

rather than just wait for you to tell me. And I'm sure you remember as I do in my early days of dog training, it was mostly all about luring.

Victoria (18:33)

yeah, a lot it it was. It was mostly, you know, I I say you do and then you get. It was very one sided. Wasn't it? It was making it was making dogs do things that were important for day to day stuff, like sit and down and everything. Or a and we put so much focus on that

And yet now those still are skills, but now I mean at VSA for example, those are still skills, but right right when when VSA started ten years ago, our first lesson after what's positive training our first lesson's about cognition.

And cognition games. That's that's

Kay Attwood (19:27)

Fantastic.

Victoria (19:27)

what it is. And with Dr. Brian Hare here at Duke Cognition Centre, again more than ten years ago, we we were on the advisory board for dognition, which was what they were doing about citizen science. So play these games with these dogs, with your own dogs.

And let's and put the data in what you see. So thousands and thousands of people playing these games with their dogs all over the world, in putting the data in to this to dognition, and now scientists have such incredible data to support how important these cognitive games are.

Kay Attwood (20:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Victoria (20:19)

I can't think that sort of backs up everything that you're doing. and and how important it is. Now you have a book, Canine Cognition Skills. Yeah. canine cognitive cognitive skills. And that book's really good because and I recommend it to all of our students, clients, everything. Because it it it takes people through the games.

Kay Attwood (20:47)

Yeah, yeah.

Victoria (20:51)

I don't want people that go, it's just well I don't really No, no, this stuff is it's not It's beautifully done. It like it you can do it. Don't feel like you're overwhelmed by it.

Kay Attwood (21:07)

Yeah, well, it starts off easy. And then you go through, as you go through the book, they get slightly harder and more detail. But for me, about all my classes too, is that I don't want people to have to go out and buy really, really expensive things just to have fun and to teach their dogs things and to learn from their dogs. So throughout the book, the things that you'll need are usually everyday items that you'll have around in your home.

you know, like empty plastic bottles and empty plastic cups and that type of thing. So, piece and paper. You can do all sorts of things with paper and a printer at home. So I want, I like to keep things, maybe it's my Scottish heritage, but I like to keep things, you know, so that you don't have to spend an absolute fortune because otherwise it, you know, that alone would put people off. And I don't want to put people off. I want to encourage them to do more with their dog.

and so that they can therefore encourage their dogs to do more with them. And then their dogs choose to do, can we do more of that please? You know, all the time.

Victoria (22:18)

And I love that. And that's why I think that everybody needs to go get the book because and everybody needs to play these games with their dogs because again it's just fun. Alright, I'm gonna take a quick break and I'll be back with Kay Atwood after this message. I'm back with Kay Atwood, we're talking all things cognition. Now, during the DBC, your presentation was very well received. You had a lot of people asking questions.

Some of the questions I have here, and I would like to ask them on this platform so that because your answers were great as well. and only if you're a part of the dog behavior conference and you registered can you get all of the QA's after the presentations as well. but I'm just picking some of these, a kind of mean of some of these questions. and here here kind of

What a lot of people had asked was do using puzzle toys enrichment games help dogs that have canine cognitive dysfunction or dementia?

Kay Attwood (23:36)

Yes, in a word. And let me tell you why. The whole thing about dementia is unfortunately the grey matter in the brain dying with age. Now, for some dogs, this can happen earlier on. But that basically is what's happening. The brain is dying. Areas of the brain. And it depends which areas of the brain as to which functions you may lose.

You sometimes it might be speech, as the more the brain, the gray matter dies. If you've ever had an elderly human in your life who has dementia, you will notice very subtle signs thinking, that's odd, why did she do that? But then years later, because you can have dementia for a long time. And then years later, she may lose the inability to speak. So it's that kind of thing.

So it's really important that the healthier and live parts of the brain, you need to exercise them. It's like a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. Now, my mother had dementia, but in the early years, we didn't know she had dementia until she started saying really weird things. Like I remember one day she kept talking about my dad, know, mums like to mow it about dad sometimes.

And she kept saying that my father had Axminster's disease. Now, Axminster, as you know, is a carpet, a make of a carpet. And I'm thinking, what does she mean? She meant Alzheimer's, but she couldn't get that out of her head. She just kept thinking that he, no, he's got Axminster's, you know, no, no, no, no,

you will lose the function of that part of the brain. So with dogs, that happens also. So the more you can exercise the parts that are left alive that aren't affected, the better. So yes, of course it is. Plus, it also comes down to the whole reason why we give dog enrichment games, because a dog with dementia also needs and deserves enrichment.

Just because you've got dementia, you're not, actually, I say this a lot to people about dementia in humans. They're not dead, they've got dementia.

Victoria (26:13)

No right.

Kay Attwood (26:16)

And the same with your dog. They deserve enrichment. They deserve all the love and attention that you would want to lavish on them if they didn't have dementia. forget they've got dementia. Just deal with the symptoms that they're presenting.

and work with, again, work with the dog that's in front of you. And if it changes on a daily basis or a weekly basis, then you need to change on a daily or a weekly basis. But your job as that dog owner is to give that dog what he needs. And if his needs are changing because of dementia, then you need to change of how you're responding to his needs. And that basically is all that you're doing. If you're giving them enrichment toys, carry on doing it.

Do they look like they're enjoying it? Carry on giving it to them.

Victoria (27:08)

Right. My my Sadie chocolate Labrador, she died when she was sixteen, but she definitely had C C D, canine cognitive dysfunction, dementia. Yeah. And some of the signs were well definitely one of the signs was that she'd navigated the kitchen for years. Yeah. But there was a corner that she got stuck in. Literally a corner. She could easily get herself out, but she just got stuck. So that when you see sort of behavior that's a little bit

Out of the ordinary. Yeah. That's when you begin to think, huh, what's going on? Can you tell me some other symptoms of dementia that people might see?

Kay Attwood (27:47)

Well, as you mentioned, they're getting lost in familiar places. that also doesn't also mean indoors. That also means outdoors. know, walks that they're used to going on. And maybe you get to the path where it goes left and right and you always go left because that's the way home. Suddenly the dog is at that junction thinking, I'm not sure which way to go. That happened with one of my dogs, Gibson. So that's one of the typical signs.

Toileting indoors is another. Going to the wrong door to go outside, whether it's to go out to the toilet or to go out just on a walk, when you get the lead and they go, good, we're going for a walk, they go totally to the wrong door and you think, why are you going there? That type of thing. They can become less social. You might find that they will take themselves off and just sit in another room.

particularly at night because by then they get tired. So rather than when they're tired, wanting to cuddle up to you on the sofa as your dog has done his entire life previously, he'll take himself off into a quiet place to go to sleep and rest. But pacing, pacing through the night is another big

Victoria (29:06)

That that was what I was gonna say. Definitely the nighttime seems to be and that and that can also be for for people as well. Yeah. the sun goes down or as you know, with sundowners and but but also sleep irregularities happen.

Kay Attwood (29:23)

Changes in sleep patterns.

Victoria (29:25)

Absolutely. that can happen. Okay, so you think your dog has this, you maybe always take your dog to the vet.

yeah. And the vet has said, Yes, there's potential for this. So what what is the next thing you do?

Kay Attwood (29:40)

Well, you have to meet, as I say, you have to meet their needs and if their needs are changing, then your level of care has to change. So I would say if your dog is pacing around and getting lost in the house, try not to move your furniture around for a start because that just gives them another element of trying to remember. And the more you try to make them remember, the more frustrating it can be for them.

and then frustration kicks in. then even us humans, when we're frustrated, we don't function as well. So if you move your furniture around and your dog's getting frustrated because I can't remember how to get around this big sofa thing, this thing, that can be frustrating. And that will also influence behavior going forward. So leave things as if you can in place.

If you've got plants that sit in the corner, don't have them so tight in the corner so that if they do get stuck behind it, there is ample room for them to get back out. So even, you know, little tiny things like that as well. I used to leave little tea lights or lights that detected movement on around the house. But what I would usually do is I wouldn't allow them the

free roaming around the whole downstairs at night. I would keep them in a smaller area and preferably an area where there isn't carpeted so that if they do go to the toilet, it's on a floor, et cetera. But I would have little lights with motion so that when they are pacing around, they're not in the dark. And now I know obviously dogs can see better than we can, but until we can be sure that they can still see as well when they've got dementia,

your eyesight deteriorates as you get older. We have to wear glasses as a result.

Victoria (31:39)

Yeah, you got

Kay Attwood (31:41)

So, you know, make sure that there is light, you know, just in case they are pacing around. And just remember, they're not doing any of these behaviors through choice. They're not peeing on the floor because they want to. They're not, you know, trying to get stuck for attention. They're not suddenly howling in the middle of the night because they want, you know, to annoy you.

They're doing it because they are suffering in a word, which is...

I just remember my own annoyance at myself when I get upset when I think about that, because when my first dog that I had that had dementia, Gibson, I didn't recognize the signs. I didn't know about it. And I left it too late. it's a case of it. None of it is through choice. So it's our job to care for them as you would your mother, your grandmother. It's our job to care for them. And they just

Just think if they got more specialized needs and they're not special needs, but they needed more specialized range of care. So take it as an opportunity, which I did, to educate yourself. How can I meet your needs now? How can I meet your needs next week, next month, next year? How can my needs evolve as yours change? And that for me was a

Victoria (33:11)

Huge, huge

Kay Attwood (33:12)

lesson

that I learned.

Victoria (33:14)

Now you're writing a book, as I understand it, and which is going to be focusing on this. Tell

Kay Attwood (33:20)

Yes, very.

Victoria (33:22)

us Can you tell us more about that?

Kay Attwood (33:25)

Well, obviously, I'm going to take you through a journey and I'm going to use my two dogs that I've had with dementia as examples because they both had dementia, but they were both very different in the things that they did. but obviously, the second dog that I had that had it, I was on it like that because I thought, isn't right. So the book is going to take you through that journey.

So that even if you think, even if you haven't got a dog with dementia, I want it to be a good read because I think, I think I can, through this book, I think I can educate people about it so that you're ready for it should it happen. Or even if it doesn't happen, I've had dogs that have died of old age.

didn't have dementia, but even it's just educating. Even if you can say to a friend, I think your dog might have a little bit of dementia starting. said, if you know, the more we educate ourselves, the better we become and the better prepared we are, should something like this happen to us or someone we love or that we're close to. So I want the book to take you through that journey.

and educate. That's my biggest thing. want to educate because so many people, my own clients, when I say to them, well, I think your dog may have a little bit of dementia, know. Dementia? Dogs? Don't be daft. People don't realize that dogs actually have that.

Victoria (34:58)

The

brains are so similar, but I'm gonna say they've got a similar right. And and so I I think it is. I think you're absolutely right. It's shocking for people to go, what my dog, my elderly dog has dementia. That that's that's not, that's just a human thing. That's no, it's really it's really not.

Kay Attwood (35:18)

And the sad thing is, that the behaviour changes that happen because of dementia in the early years particularly, we unfortunately, we take that as being the dog's being naughty.

Victoria (35:32)

Yeah, which is so sad.

Kay Attwood (35:34)

Yeah, yeah it is very sad. So if I could change that then I would be absolutely elated.

Victoria (35:43)

And and what you say about like just creating, especially when you're out or at night, an area that's much smaller means that they are li they are less likely to get lost. If they do have an accident, it's okay. And I know and they're safer. And I know for Sadie, I mean, if I could call her a proud dog, she was, because if she if she just needed to get out and sometimes it would come so fast.

And she would head for that door, but I'd be ready because I knew that she needed to go out and she needed to go out really quickly. And so, and it was almost in the towards the end, she just couldn't make it. She would and I never told her off for it, but she herself would panic because she didn't she herself didn't want to poop. But and sometimes it started happening in her sleep as well.

And these are the things, so it's so important that you're with your ceiling seeing toileting change toileting changes at any age, but especially in your adult dog, there's a whole reason for them. and one of those could be dementia, but the fact is that you just need to support. You need to be understanding. And and that is so important. do you

So one of the questions here is like do you recommend journaling?

Kay Attwood (37:13)

Yes, journaling is a great idea because sometimes you won't remember all the different changes that you're seeing. And then for one example, when you go back to the vet to say, you know, and the vet's going to say, how are things, any changes in behavior? It's so much easier if you can go, actually, yep, hang on. Well, actually, this has happened and this has happened because you might mention one thing.

And then the vet will go, well, actually that's a little bit of a red flag to me for this, this, this, and this. It gives them more to explore and look at. It gives them a better understanding of what's going on with your dog. And therefore, if they've got a better understanding what's going on with your dog, they can help you more with your dog. So journaling is a great idea for anything like that, not just dementia, any behavior changes. I would write them down because you might not.

You you might decide that, I'll give it another week and see how he goes. And then you think, I'll give it another week. Months have gone down the road and then you're at the stage where you think, I really need to see a vet now. And you might not remember what happened four weeks ago. So journaling is always a great idea, a great idea.

Victoria (38:33)

Yeah, we always encourage people to definitely for any kind of it's data. Data is good. Data is good and it's good if you're going to see a a a professional trainer or a veterinarian. It's good for us to have that kind of knowledge as well, something that you've written down and that can be, you know, that can be very, very important for us to know as well. Kay, I'm very excited for your show. And

I'm also very excited for your book as well.

Kay Attwood (39:03)

I'm going to try and get them out together.

Victoria (39:06)

Are you? That's what I was gonna say. That was my next question is when is the book coming out?

Kay Attwood (39:12)

I'd like to get out as quickly as possible, really. I'm still in the stages for some parts for research. So I'm looking into a lot of things. And one of them is psyched. You know, I want to know a little bit more about that. I'm a bit of a geek in that if I'm going to write it, I need to know it forwards, backwards, inside and out. lots of things I'm still at the research stage, but I have started writing. So.

Victoria (39:40)

Yeah.

Kay Attwood (39:41)

Fingers crossed they're gonna come out virtually together.

Victoria (39:44)

So you've got a very busy summer, basically, that's what it is.

Kay Attwood (39:48)

Yeah, I mean look at me, I haven't got a stitch of makeup on, I don't even have time to put makeup on in the mornings at the moment. How crazy is that?

Victoria (39:56)

Well, you look great for it, I have to say. But look co congratulations on the show and with your book. And also thank you for speaking at the Dog Behaviour Conference and for sharing your knowledge with

Kay Attwood (40:11)

My pleasure.

Victoria (40:11)

all of our attendees. As I said, it was really well received. This is important. This is something we've got to focus on. You know, everybody who knows me knows that I love the old dogs. I did

You know, my my Labrador, she lasted till she was sixteen, then I adopted an eleven year old Shih Tzu and she she lasted till she was sixteen too, and then had Chihuahua and she was fifteen. So I had these at any one time I had basically elderly dogs for years in my house. Yeah. And yeah, there was a lot of physical challenges, there were a lot of mental challenges as well. But being having that knowledge

I could ensure that not only were they pain free, but they were also supported with their journey as they got into seniorhood, they were supported in that journey. So thank you so much for what you're doing. And I can't wait to see all of the fabulous stuff on TV and to read.

Kay Attwood (41:14)

Well, I can't wait to see it myself.

Victoria (41:18)

Yay. All right. Well thank you so much, Kay.

Kay Attwood (41:21)

Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure as always.

Victoria (41:25)

And thanks everyone for listening to this fabulous podcast. And I hope that if you have a senior dog at home that you've learnt a lot and just everybody have your eyes on Dave and all of those different channels to see the new show Waggon Rights. Alright, take care everybody and see you on another podcast.