Episode 220: Misadventures of the Okayest Dog Trainer and Misogyny in the Dog Training Industry with Melissa McCue-McGrath
Melissa McCue-McGrath joins Victoria to discuss her new book 'Misadventures of the World's Okayest Dog Trainer,' her experiences with unconventional cases, and the challenges faced by women in the dog training industry. This episode offers insights into real-world dog training, industry dynamics, and empowering women professionals.
Transcript
Victoria Stilwell (00:01.43)
I wish you could see if you are just listening on the podcast, my next guest, because she always has the most amazing glasses on. And I, I don't know. mean, like I just wear these terrible readers and each time they just look amazing. it's Melissa McCue-McGrath. She is back because she's going to be talking about the misadventures of the world's okayest dog trainer. And I know that you guys, certainly those of you who listen to the podcast have heard Melissa speak before because yes, she is the one that has spoken at my dog behavior conference and has spoken about her experience with the most, I guess,
These dogs, could call them heroes, but they were the most unlikely heroes sniffing out invasion, which she will tell us a little bit about and how these six dogs were sort of taken from all of these, like really quite major behavior problems that they had or issues that they had and became sniffy heroes. mean, truly incredible. So we are going to talk about that.
But we are also going to talk about this book. She is a dog trainer, an author, a VSA faculty advisor. She is a VSA favorite. Welcome to this podcast.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:38.214)
I'm so glad to be back.
Victoria Stilwell (01:41.238)
I'm so glad you're back now. This, I love the cover and because the, know the book is going to be available or is already available actually. But I am, I'm excited for my copy Misadventures of the World's Okayest Dog Trainer. It is literally the, the graphic of a dog lifting its leg, peeing into a cup of coffee. And I'm like, really? There you go. For people who couldn't see this, there it is.
Yeah, I mean, and only Melissa could you have that. But I'm, if I saw that book on the shelf and I didn't know who you were, I would be, I would buy it in a heartbeat.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (02:23.314)
yes, that means a lot because I knew I was taking a gamble with this cover. And Lily Chin, I don't know if you've had the pleasure of meeting with her. She's such a doll. She agreed to do this cover for me. And so when she did the art and everything and I gave her some ideas as to what I would like to see, when she sent that back, I still laughed because what she did was she took my dog.
Victoria Stilwell (02:33.236)
she's great. Yes, yes, yes. I've seen lots of her books and yep.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (02:51.224)
and put him on the cover peeing into the cup. That's Captain. And so like, so it's just got this extra layer of, of just like, hee hee. And that is something he would do.
Victoria Stilwell (02:53.56)
That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
Victoria Stilwell (03:00.974)
I love it. my gosh. I just, think it's lovely because it's so cheeky. It's so cheeky. And all of us who love dogs can look at that and go, yeah, I got that. I know a dog like that or, okay. So tell us about this book. Tell us why you wrote it. And then I kind of want to get more into the weeds of it and to talk about some of the things that you discovered while you were writing it.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (03:07.065)
It is.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (03:25.254)
Sure, absolutely. So this book actually came, it was inspired entirely by my very first VSA student, Zoe. So I actually just got my first two copies and I signed the first one and I have to put it in the mail to her because this book wouldn't have existed without her. And she had asked me, she was like, so what is it that I need to know? I think it was like the day before her last...
test. And this was before like everything was online. So she was in person with me and had been with me for six months. And there's something to that relationship of being with someone like face to face in person. We literally had to push a FedEx truck that had gotten stuck like in an ice storm, like on our way to a behavior case. Like we got it. We're from New England. We're just like trying to push. And then he's like, thanks.
Victoria Stilwell (04:14.68)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (04:18.022)
Um, so like when you kind of go through something like that, um, with a person, um, it, it just forges this cool relationship. And she had asked me the night before her final exam, like, what do I need to know? And I was like, well, definitely brush up on learning theory. Um, and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, not that. What didn't they tell me? And, and I kind of sat there for a second, like, well, what does she mean by that? And then I realized she meant like.
all the things that she had been seeing in my private cases, maybe walking into a hoarding case, behavioral euthanasia, like what that feels like when you're face to face with someone like that or having to discuss rehoming, but also just like the out of left field hilarity that comes when you're in people's most intimate spaces. Yeah, there are just so many things. like,
Victoria Stilwell (05:11.725)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (05:15.074)
Each chapter, I wanted people who are coming into this industry to get a behind the scenes look at what I do, what you do, what people listening to this do, because it really isn't just the textbook stuff. It's the people. what, anytime you add a new people, that is a new wild card to the equation for better or for worse. And so each chapter is like your worst case.
your humpiest cases, your brush with sexism, your this, your that. So I want people like you, if you get a chance to read it, to think back to those cases that you have that are under that umbrella. Because these ones are mine, but I think if a bunch of dog trainers are sitting at a table, we're all going back and forth with these cases.
the ones that are at the forefront of our mind and the things that happen to us with these people and these dogs who we love dearly. And so that's what this is. And I hope it can help people who are curious about working with animals find their way, if not in this industry, maybe in a parallel industry, and be a little better prepared.
Victoria Stilwell (06:31.118)
And be, yes. so, you know, any kind of education, the best, the best, yeah, you can get all the theory. can, you know, you can get a lot of experience, especially folks in America can go to a rescue shelter. You know, a lot of our students will go to rescue shelters and they will do a lot of pro bono work and they will learn a lot. In England, it's slightly different because the rules around rescue shelters are a little bit different about people and students coming in. So.
But it's important to get as much real world experience as you can. Harder in an online course, but we encourage you to go out there and do it, which is the reason why mentors are important, which is the reason why faculty advisors are important. But however much you learn, the real learning happens once somebody is paying you the check. Once somebody is writing you the check and paying the money and you're going in.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (07:24.132)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (07:29.376)
And yet now you're having to perform in a way because there's massive expectations on you. They want you to come and fix their dog and they want you to do it as quickly as possible. And they have their busy lives and their children are running around and their significant other is shouting at them and it's crazy.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (07:34.47)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (07:51.013)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (07:55.694)
or scrolling on Reddit and ignoring the entire conversation.
Victoria Stilwell (07:58.562)
Right. There you go. The scroller. I've had many of those before, you know, the smartphone where people are just like on their phone texting. And I'm like, yeah, can you put that down, please? And it's me or the dog. You'll, you'll see me do that a couple of times. Right. Right. yeah. Would you mind please just like putting that away? That's, that's not. So, and you're having to be diplomatic, but then those things that come out of left field.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (08:11.455)
and it's like a toaster size and it's got like chunk.
Victoria Stilwell (08:29.134)
I remember as a young trainer, one of my first consults in Manhattan was this huge male pit bull. he was all male and he was all pit. He was beautiful. And you know, I come into this house because, and I know that this dog has bitten the husband.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (08:55.857)
one of those cases, okay.
Victoria Stilwell (08:57.598)
one of those cases. I know that. But I'm told, you know, dogs got no problem with women. A little weird with men, but no problem with women. So I go to this house and yes, this massive pit bull greets me at the door and he is beautiful. A little wary of me at first, but we quickly bonded. And I'm sitting there with a couple and I'm asking questions and I'm getting my s-
Bidey senses are starting. I'm starting to feel it. And then the guy leaves for work. He has to go. We're like 30 minutes through into our consultation and I'm trying to find out more information about why this is happening. Because by the way, this is before websites where you can have your nice forms to fill out on websites. This is all done over the phone. The behavioral consult is done and all the information is taken over the phone before all of that.
Right? Because that doesn't even exist yet. This is how far, for, you know, how long ago it was. Okay. So this woman, she waits and then she, and then, and then I ask her the question.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (09:55.675)
rights.
Okay.
Victoria Stilwell (10:11.114)
Are you able to speak freely now? She says, yes, I am. And I was like, you do not have to answer this, but what happens before the dog, what happened before the dog bit him?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (10:29.062)
Thanks
Victoria Stilwell (10:32.49)
And it was very clear what happened. And it was clear as to the reason why the dog bit the husband.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (10:36.261)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (10:40.741)
Wow.
Victoria Stilwell (10:42.026)
That was my, one of my first cases in Manhattan. Talk about left field. Yes. and so I felt like I came out of there literally shaking like a leaf, but I, it was, I had, because I started to suspect it as I was listening to them. And, and I said to her.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (10:47.066)
Dang girl, trial by fire. Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (10:58.758)
Yeah!
Victoria Stilwell (11:11.892)
I am only a dog trainer and it is not, I will basically keep what you said close to me. I will not betray your trust. But I do advise you go seek help. And that is all I could do. I could help other things with the dog, but I couldn't. Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (11:33.88)
And it is so hard when that's all you could do.
Victoria Stilwell (11:41.97)
and obviously what, what did have, what was good is that it did have an outcome, a good outcome. And she became more of a client of mine and it did have a much better outcome. And the dog was amazing, but it was, that was, that was one of the first ones.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (11:55.488)
Yay!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (12:00.251)
Man, those first ones are hard too. Like this one isn't nearly as serious. In fact, it's just one of those left field things that just takes kind of more of a comedy of errors turn. go in and it's this family has this portrait of their golden retriever in the living room. And I'm there to meet their puppy, Gussie.
And little Gussie's a little golden retriever. And I sit down and this couple tells me like, well, we got Gussie because Gertie, and they point to this big portrait, died a month ago. And I'm like, so I've got Gussie and Gertie. So like, these are two very similar names. so, and then they needed to get the puppy because their kids were coming home from college and they couldn't not have a dog.
in the home when their kids came back for Christmas. And so like, you've got like all these layers, right? And so I'm sitting there and they're calling the dog by the name of the dead because they're so close. So then I start doing it and I'm like, no. It was just like, I'm like, no. And every time I misspoke, I'm like, I'm sorry. And now I'm confused and I don't know who's sitting in front of me. It's a cute puppy. They call me in because of all of the things that this puppy is doing. The one little thing is that
Victoria Stilwell (12:58.19)
Okay.
Victoria Stilwell (13:05.742)
30. No.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (13:25.782)
she won't go in her crate. And so I'm like, have you tried putting food in it? They're like, yes, we've tried this, we've tried that. They're giving me all the things. And I'm like, huh, and think you might, I'm curious where you think this is going. like, so I'm like, okay, well, can I see where she sleeps? Cause we're now like 35 minutes in and I still haven't even seen the crate. I'm like, can I see this? And so I think they're gonna take me into the bedroom. Luckily they don't. There are some other stories in the book where I do go into the bedroom and
Victoria Stilwell (13:35.351)
Ha!
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (13:54.651)
there's weird stuff everywhere and it's awkward. yeah, we have seen some things. We have seen some things. And so luckily they did not take me to the back room. They took me into a dining room that's kind of become like a storage area and kind of like there was a side table that had girdies, ashes on the table. Yep, this is where you thought it was going.
the tennis ball, like there was like a little newspaper clipping like framed there. And like everyone just walks into this dining room and they're so sad. This puppy is like, I don't want to go in there. She's basically in a basement bedroom under a funerary, like under a funeral parlor. And so I'm like, I think I have an idea. So I just like kind of move the crate into the kitchen and the dog's like, I love my crate and goes for running right in.
Victoria Stilwell (14:45.431)
I went and.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (14:47.172)
did not want to be like everybody was so sad. She didn't want to go in. That took no training. That took no behavior consulting. It was just being a second set of eyes in that room while people are dealing with like this grief and excitement and like all of these complicated interwoven emotions and feelings. And all the puppy just needed, they don't have that complicated feeling. The puppy's just like, I want to be in my crate, but.
Victoria Stilwell (14:51.116)
Hmm
Melissa McCue-McGrath (15:13.446)
This is weird, even for me.
Victoria Stilwell (15:16.29)
Yeah. Very, very, I mean, and, and you know, was that the crate that was used by the other dog? Was it? It was just smaller one. Okay. Right. So it wasn't even that, that, that the pup was smelling the other dog in that crate or the, or the illness or the, it was just that.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (15:23.255)
I don't think so. This was a much smaller crate, cause it was a little golden poppy. So like she still had room to grow, but yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (15:33.254)
It was just everybody went in and they were just sad. And so the puppy's like, why do I want to go in there? Everyone is so upset.
Victoria Stilwell (15:40.53)
yeah. Yeah. I don't want to do that. that's brilliant. That's brilliant. When you say that, you know, you've been in homes and you've definitely seen some weird stuff. I mean, we've even seen weird stuff on It's Me or the Dog. And, and, and, and, and people are very open about their weird stuff too. and I'm going to tap that. Okay. So here's the, which I've never. Okay.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (15:47.526)
You
Melissa McCue-McGrath (15:56.335)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (16:01.348)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (16:05.489)
This is what the book is supposed to do, getting people to talk about the figs. This is great.
Victoria Stilwell (16:09.824)
This is what I'm doing. I am sharing a story with you and I'm not going to say when it happened. but we definitely found ourselves in a house of disrepute. Let me tell you. And, it was, yes, it was. And okay. I am so focused when I go into homes, right? So focused on, I'm so focused on the dog and focused on the issue and focused on what I'm going to do.
It's almost like I didn't see anything else. So I just want, we did a whole day of filming in this house, a whole day. It's with an amazing dog and amazing purse. And I'm like doing my thing and we're doing this and, it's a beautiful big house. And I don't see anything that's untoward because I'm not even, my head's not even there. The next morning, my producer calls me up and goes, okay.
We just found something out. They came in the morning and all the red lights were on.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (17:17.063)
Victoria Stilwell (17:18.126)
And that was like a trigger for the producer to say, because I'm an owns to me, the crew and the producer are seeing all of the artwork and the statues and the this and the that. I like, they're putting two and two together, but everyone's a bit like, But okay. And then there's my meet and greet with the person.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (17:38.951)
You
Victoria Stilwell (17:44.49)
I come into the room and I meet them, this beautiful dog and I sit down and above my head is a massive photograph of a woman's behind and I don't even see it. Which they cut off. I don't even see it because I'm so focused. And then once my eyes were open, we carried on filming.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (18:07.431)
No.
Victoria Stilwell (18:12.308)
We were given permission to actually carry out because they had to call the lawyers, they had to do all that. But we were given permission to carry on filming because, you know, this wasn't about that. It was just where this person lived. And I guess it's the business that they had, right? There's nothing, there's nothing like on to war with the dog or anything. No, this is just... And once my eyes were open, I began to see it everywhere.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (18:24.615)
Sure.
Victoria Stilwell (18:42.008)
got it from the, I didn't even go downstairs to the dungeon, but we knew what it Anyway, so we were giggling like stupid school girls and schoolboys and going, about this house, it was amazing. So yeah, that was, that was, I think that was probably, and we all carried on like everything was totally normal and nobody said a word.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (18:48.391)
Hahaha!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (18:58.919)
Melissa McCue-McGrath (19:12.488)
It's just like, I mean, you can't really, can you? Until you like go out for like a beverage or dinner after, then you're saying all the words. But like when you were describing that you're just so tunnel focused, tunnel vision, it just made me think of like, you know, like on Zoom, you can blur your background. Like you were kind of doing that, like just focusing on what needed to be focused. And so of course you weren't going to notice.
Victoria Stilwell (19:13.024)
Nobody said a word.
Victoria Stilwell (19:32.278)
Yeah, that's exactly-
Melissa McCue-McGrath (19:39.473)
But my God, when you said statues, I'm like, I need to see this house.
Victoria Stilwell (19:45.864)
not see the statue to the right? I just didn't. How could I not see the picture behind me? No. And that was like, okay, girl, now I know you are really focused. Now I know that when you're doing your show, it's like nothing else exists except that dog and that person and what's right in front of me. Right. But also I also proud my pride myself and tell all the students that like, you have to be there. You've got to get
Melissa McCue-McGrath (19:56.956)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (20:05.35)
Yes!
Victoria Stilwell (20:11.726)
clues from the house and clues from the people and clues from the interaction, clues from the... I guess that day I didn't look at the house. I just saw a big house, but I didn't see all the paraphernalia in it. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. It's crazy. yes, there's definitely... I think that writing a book like this and telling people, yeah, hopefully you're not going to go into those situations. But...
Melissa McCue-McGrath (20:18.051)
Okay, I forgot that.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (20:24.103)
That's amazing.
Victoria Stilwell (20:40.192)
You never know what you're gonna go into because it's life, isn't it?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (20:43.975)
Right. It's life and what sometimes is reported, like here's what you're coming in for. And I know this happens to every professional I talk with. You're called in for jumping and then you open the door and the dog's trying to bite you. right, like, so there's what's being reported because either the owner is afraid that if they admit that the dog is biting that they won't get help.
Or they've been kind of gaslit by everybody else saying, no, this is normal. But like that tickle in them is still saying something's wrong. But I can't tell this to the trainer because what if she also thinks I'm wrong and then I'm not going to get help. Or they just think, yeah, the jumping's the problem, the biting's fine. It's so hard to take the information they give you is going to be incomplete.
Victoria Stilwell (21:36.237)
Right.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (21:42.951)
And so you can just go in as safely as you can and as prepared as possible. But if something is going on inside of you, when you're getting that intake form or when you're, which we can now do online, thank you, internet, for existing, that you can either do online or like if you're still doing it on the phone or however you're doing it, just take that information and be like, okay.
what holes might exist here? And even if I'm overthinking it, at least I'm gonna be safe. And so just making sure that we are keeping ourselves safe and that animal in front of us as safe as possible, no matter what the universe throws at us as soon as that door gets opened. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (22:24.534)
Right. And I think it's always to expect the unexpected. mean, that's it. It's human nature and also the dog. That's why like so many people love training online because then they, you know, that is much safer. Not a hundred percent safe, but...
Melissa McCue-McGrath (22:39.717)
Yes, you only get this, you get like the tiny Zoom room and that's all anybody has to see. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (22:43.168)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that definitely helps. All right. We're to take a quick break. And when we come back, I do want to talk about some other fascinating things that you have in the book when it comes to female dog trainers, but we'll be back with Melissa in a second.
Victoria Stilwell (23:08.714)
Okay. I'm back with Melissa McCue McGrath. We're talking about her incredible book, Misadventures to the World's Okayest Dog Trainer and what it is like that those things to anticipate things that potentially are going to come out of left field, regardless of, know, where you learn, your learning is going to continue big time when you're actually doing the job. So truly be prepared for anything.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (23:32.348)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (23:35.264)
But you have some really interesting research when it comes to female dog trainers versus male dog trainers who identify as female, we should say.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (23:41.82)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (23:46.043)
Yeah, I was trying to be very considerate with the language. I was actually like on the break, I was trying to see if I could actually find the page, but I'll just go off the cuff. When I was doing this, I think I had been given one VSA student at that point who was a dude. And I'm like, wait, I have all these VSA students. He's my first guy coming through this program.
And then I'm like looking at my assistants and my interns and my dog training colleagues. And we used to joke at a New England dog training club where I used to be one of the training directors. Every Thursday we would have to like unroll these like roofing mats that were hundreds of pounds each onto the floor of this gymnasium in a school to protect the floor so that way we could train dogs in this school. And the years that we had...
male interns or trainers, we were thrilled because we're like, okay, these things are really heavy and we understand our physique. We are doing our best. That's not to say we're not strong, but it was much easier when we had a 250 pound firefighter who wanted to try to help to help us with these mats And so I got to thinking, I'm like, well, wait, how many...
Victoria Stilwell (24:53.176)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (25:09.169)
how many men are in positive reinforcement dog training? Because like you go to these, actually the chapter in here opens with a story from one of these dog conferences. I was actually pregnant at the time. So I think it was 2012. And the executive director of this organization gets up there and she goes, all right, well, the floor, all the bathrooms in this floor for housekeeping, all the bathrooms for this floor have been converted to women's bathrooms.
Men, you guys can go downstairs and use the facilities down there just because there's a couple thousand of us. We're all women for the most part. And this guy gets really huffy, you know, like in an audience where you just hear like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like some commotion, but you can't really identify what's happening. And everybody gets super quiet. So that's happening. And then I'm just looking at the executive director who's got like her hands on the hips and she's just staring like, kind of like, okay. And so then she just like,
She scans the audience in silence and then she goes, well, if you want to get more than eight men here, then maybe we'll consider opening the bathroom for you guys next year. Like it was just basically this, he was so mad that he would have to go down one flight when there's like, I was pregnant. I was in the bathroom like a lot. And just having like these lines of women and just for the ease of the conference, it made logistical sense.
Victoria Stilwell (26:20.813)
Wow.
Victoria Stilwell (26:37.454)
So he was annoyed about having to go down one flight of stairs to use the bathrooms.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (26:38.718)
and, like.
One flame. Yes. Yes. And he was that angry in front of 2000 women, like with a female executive director who just had this look of, okay, go on, tell me how sad you are, sir. And so it really got me to thinking about like how this industry looks. Cause like when I know like there's lots of conversations about camps of dog trainers and all this other stuff.
Victoria Stilwell (26:51.106)
Wow. Okay.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (27:11.291)
But the fact of the matter is when we pulled data, when I had asked my husband to pull data from some of the big dog training organizations like the VSA, actually, your husband was able to help me get that data, which was super helpful. And through VSA in 2019, 90 % of the students identified as female. In Karen Pryor's academy, I don't believe I was able to pull the data from that one. Pet Professional Guild, I was able to get the data from them.
And I believe it was like 94 % were women or something like that. All told across the five biggest dog training schools, academies, and certifications at the time, 89 % of that population were women or female identifying or non-binary. And I thought that was very, very telling. Cause when we talk about this industry being so female driven,
you have misogyny still playing on big stages and in cases like that guy, like, well, I'm this one guy, but let me tell you women how this is gonna go down. And like even online, like that we are attacked in ways that the men across the board do not have to deal with the viciousness. That's not to say that they're not attacked. That's not to say that they are not.
dealing with hurling slurs or horrible things being said to them. But the targeted way in which this culture comes after women in a very specific and cutting, gutting way, almost as if it's like a shark looking for blood in the water, that if any of us were to say half of the stuff that any of those guys say, we are ripped apart.
And then we are the, in the dog world, we are the, what do you call it? Like the celebrity of the internet for that day for the bad reasons. And things get misconstrued and it gets really dangerous for women, people of color, non-binary, trans, gay, indigenous, anyone.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (29:35.111)
people with disabilities or different abilities or physical challenges, if you don't fit the mold, even in this industry that is driven by women and is, to my understanding, generally supportive of the LGBT community and like these other communities, if it's still hard and we've built this, I don't know what the answer is to like, to...
to, quote, fix it. This is a bigger societal problem, and it plays out even here in a female-dominated industry.
Victoria Stilwell (30:11.118)
And one of the reasons why I am one of the only female trainers that have a television show. There are other female trainers that have been involved in TV stuff, but a consistent, like successful large show that finished in 2012 came back again in 21 to 23.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (30:22.631)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Stilwell (30:40.396)
And I've done obviously other TV shows in between those times. But since then, there has never been another training show with a woman.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (30:48.155)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (30:52.284)
Right.
Victoria Stilwell (30:53.346)
There have been, I did the dog Academy where there was women and men, but I'm talking about something that is consistent and something that is large enough to go worldwide, but also to attract a lot of attention.
Men though, dominate that. And so even in the small pool of the dog trainers with TV shows, men dominate. Men dominate. So if you're talking about a training show with a single trainer in it, men dominate. There isn't another one with a female except mine.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (31:28.412)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (31:39.331)
Exactly.
Victoria Stilwell (31:40.958)
Online. Thank God there are some fabulous female trainers online, but the ones have that have millions and millions of followers are the male trainers that train in a certain way. Some of them brutally. And that is celebrated a lot by mostly other men. And I have to say by some women. So the patriarchy.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (32:00.848)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (32:08.561)
Yes, misogyny is also female driven too, yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (32:11.736)
my god. Of course it's… yes it is. I mean let's explore that. Misogyny being female driven. What do you mean when you say that?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (32:23.303)
So when you see, so there are cases where, and this has happened in my now new area here in Maine, positive reinforcement was not a thing when I was growing up. And so when I came back and saw that there was positive reinforcement in the area that I chose to live, I was over the moon, but you just cross over the town line at it's Shock, Jox, and Yank and Crank and all of the things.
But there are, there are women dog trainers in my area who will throw a shock collar on somebody and take somebody's money, take a lot of money for that quick fix. And they're benefiting from that. So they want to keep this kind of dominance idea alive despite it being
disproven, unsupported, deeply flawed, and in cases, abusive. But if you're benefiting from a system in some way, you kind of don't want to see that get taken down or change direction. And especially, and I find it interesting, especially with women in certain positions close to power, where they are the ones that have the hardest time letting go.
Victoria Stilwell (33:25.388)
Lord. Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (33:52.677)
because they're one step from power. And we see that even in politics, right? Without getting political, like in the current United States administration, we had a bunch of women who have since been fired and stuff, but like they're the face of this administration. And when they get in trouble, they are fired, but they are holding onto that job as long as they can.
probably knowing some of what they're saying is very wrong and very hurtful to other women even. And yet, you know, they're benefiting from that power and from that closeness to this structure that exists. And it's hard to let go.
Victoria Stilwell (34:38.419)
And then they
they also display behavior that their male counterparts are displaying, not just in the way and their techniques, the way that they train dogs, but what they say online to other trainers. And so, and some quite repulsive things. And you know, I always tell people, and it's not just about TV because even if you don't have a television show,
And even if you don't have a big platform like I do, right? Even if you have like a medium platform or a small platform, but yet you put your, uh, a message out on Facebook or, know, you comment on something, you will be attacked in the most, as you say, vicious way. Um, and I, I know what that's like, I've had it all my professional
Melissa McCue-McGrath (35:31.687)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Stilwell (35:39.306)
life ever since It's Me or the Dog started, right? Even before social media. But it is because people are threatened when you come out with a different message, those trainers are threatened whether they're male or female. And so the only thing they can do is just try and cut you, cut you and gut you because that's what they can do.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (35:42.94)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (35:51.238)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (36:06.553)
yeah, it's like an injured animal has nothing to lose. And so when faced with facts or alternatives, it's like, this is a direct threat to me and my livelihood, and I'm coming out teeth-bared, I'm coming at this, I'm coming at that. And we know in this industry, the four quadrants, punishment, it can work.
Victoria Stilwell (36:13.036)
Right.
Victoria Stilwell (36:36.323)
yeah!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (36:37.091)
It can be very effective. And if somebody wants you to stop, calling you a bitch is going to be way more effective to maybe make something stop than trying to meet you halfway and figure out what's going on. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (36:39.298)
Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (36:51.246)
There is no meeting half way. And this brings me to this next kind of argument. There's a lot of people out there who kind of like are playing the balance game, not like a balance train, blah, blah, but they're balancing in between. like let everybody just do what they do and just stop it. Stop, you know, the positive camp is as bad as the balance camp and balance camp is as bad as the positive camp when it comes to criticism and everything.
And I say, wait a second, I'm calling BS to that. Yes, there are some positive trainers that will are giving it large and all being completely inappropriate, but my God, the weight is coming from the other side and it's mostly coming from men. when you say that this stuff is dangerous, this is the crazy, excuse my French, shit that I get.
This I am like, stories are made up about me. And the latest story that's just been made up about me is that I actually do in secret use stupidly crazy stuff, shock collars. I mean, are you kidding me? because I heard from a producer or this and that and that's just idiotic and insane. But when they put it out there, it becomes truth.
And even when you say, know, you know that the team, the lawyers have to reply and say, this is defamation. You need to take this down or you need to stop saying this because this is defamation. This is lies. they will continue to say, no, but it's true. And so then this shit becomes true. It's insanely, it's, it's like that, you know, Hey, don't believe what you see. Don't believe what, what you see people do.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (38:20.059)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (38:29.115)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (38:49.282)
but just believe what I tell you. that's what this, and then the other, which I know was put out by a male trainer in the UK was a crazy thing that I had been sued for not being a real dog trainer. I was sued by, I don't know, some stories say I was sued by my production company. Other stories say I was sued by the channel four. And I'm like,
Melissa McCue-McGrath (38:52.208)
Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (39:17.486)
And we were just, laughed at it at the time because we were like, this is so stupid. But then it's kind of like gone overblown. And it's like, wait a second, people actually believe this. So, and then we just go, even though the reality out there is, if I was sued by my production company all those years ago, why do they still employ me? And as late as 2023, that doesn't. And why did...
Melissa McCue-McGrath (39:25.508)
Aha!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (39:39.719)
there's that. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (39:46.988)
the network, employ me again, channel four, like it's crazy. It doesn't track, but people don't want to hear it because once they have something they can hold onto, if what you have said in the past, because you don't agree with their techniques, threatens them, or they're going to take it and run and blow it up. And that's when stuff gets dangerous. It's not so much when people come on and say, you know, the
Melissa McCue-McGrath (39:55.206)
No.
Victoria Stilwell (40:16.312)
the crazy stuff that I, and bitch for me, that's actually very mild for what these male, mostly male, but some female trainers are calling me from the balanced community. Bitch is mild. That's almost like, we don't even, that's, this is crazy stuff that comes down to me. And you know, that's when it becomes,
If I didn't have a great team around me and if I believed this stuff and read it all the time, which I don't, my team does though.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (40:51.335)
Good. Ugh.
Victoria Stilwell (40:54.222)
Like, it's gonna gut you, but what about that trainer that has put their opinion out there? It's a good opinion. It's a well thought out opinion. And yet they are jumped on and literally slaughtered. What are they gonna do?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (41:09.135)
Yeah, right? Like when you don't have support and this industry can be hard. Like I don't want people to walk away from this conversation and think we hate men or that we hate. Like it's just, but I think that it absolutely has to be something that is discussed because like we deal with this daily as it is being just women in the world. And then when you are a woman professional, even with
Victoria Stilwell (41:20.768)
No!
Victoria Stilwell (41:27.693)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (41:36.519)
Um, like going back to like, there was a conversation I just recently saw about, we have to have, um, if shelters are going to be successful, executives have to believe their behavior and trainers who have ethical backgrounds. If we're going to have these dogs be successful. So if we are 89 to 90 % female or non-binary industry, lead industry.
And those are the people who have certifications and have experience. And they're already doing the hard thing, working in a shelter. And then they're saying, okay, look, this is a dangerous dog. This one is not actually going to be safe to put out into the community. I recommend behavioral and humane euthanasia for this suffering animal. So that way we can use our resources to help these other dogs that have quirks, but we can address.
whatever the case might be. And when that female professional gives that very hard assessment and an executive is like, that's great, we're gonna save them all and like check it and then sends that dangerous dog out into the community. The executive doesn't have to wear that, it's the behavioral person who made the initial call and then was run over. So.
Victoria Stilwell (42:57.037)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (43:02.411)
every piece of our industry because we are predominantly women or non-binary people in this industry. The culture of toxic masculinity ruins the party again is a saying I've heard from another podcast, but it's true. And it impacts every single facet. And that's why I definitely wanted to at least bring it up in
Victoria Stilwell (43:22.178)
Yes, it is true.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (43:29.047)
in the book, but also in conversations like this, because here we are two women having this conversation and some men are going to hear it and be like, my God, this has got to be really hard for you. And others are going to hear it and be like, they just like, they just hate men. Like instead of listening to what we're saying, stop whining, they're on the rag.
Victoria Stilwell (43:44.45)
Yeah. Stop whining. Stop whining. God, you're so like, you're so like, yeah. mean, yeah, they're going to come up with some sort of, you know, put down or whatever it is. I mean, when we have our politicians doing it, I'm like, okay, free for all, for everybody to do it. It doesn't matter. You can say what you like, right? And there's not going to be consequences, but here's, here's
Melissa McCue-McGrath (43:55.516)
right?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (44:00.326)
Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (44:12.014)
in sort of the, the, the going towards the more positive side of this is that we have noticed at VSA a massive uptick in male trainers coming to learn with us. And that is the beauty of it. and we embrace those male trainers and some of them are crossover trainers and they have the courage to say, Hey, I want to learn a different way.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (44:23.781)
Yes. Yay!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (44:36.113)
Good. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (44:41.582)
And these guys have, you know, they do the dog sports. They have the German shepherds. have the, you know, these guys, they've been walking that relative punitive line in the, like the tough dog sports scene for a while. And they choose to be different. They choose, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to come and learn.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (45:01.528)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (45:06.182)
I love it.
Victoria Stilwell (45:09.644)
And we embrace those people. We embrace guys that come in and are like, we want to start off in the right way because this is what we believe or I did this to my own dog and I really wish I hadn't, but I didn't know better. That is where I, I'm hoping the industry continues to go. Plus we have some amazing males and out there.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (45:26.951)
Yeah!
Victoria Stilwell (45:39.82)
that are doing incredible things that do have large platforms. And also, you know, they get crushed too. It's just a little less, it's interesting because the comments that are made to them are a little less gutting and putting down and annihilating than the comments to women are.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (45:48.209)
They do.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (45:59.481)
It's more, yeah, the comments I see to men tend to be like, you just don't know what you're talking about. Or that they'll just like give them a problem and the guy's like, well, I would just do this. And then like the conversation kind of fizzles out. With women, it is relentless. It is constant. It is emotional. It is digging up your worst traumas and finding a way in. It is intentional and it is, and I go back to saying dangerous because for some of these
Victoria Stilwell (46:05.482)
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (46:28.898)
this.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (46:29.457)
people who might not have all these resources. It's hard enough when you have to like run of the mill, compassion fatigue, which is awful and is dangerous in its own way because like suicide is real in this industry. And I'm very open about that in my daily life, in this book, whatever, just trying to prepare what this is like. But then you take somebody's trauma and to...
Victoria Stilwell (46:38.829)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (46:44.141)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (46:57.819)
to use that as a flashpoint or to use it and weaponize it against fantastic trainers and voices in our positive and fear-free community who are doing good work, there is nothing more deplorable that I could conceive because it's already hard to be a woman. It is harder to be a woman who runs her own business. It is harder to be a woman who runs her own business
Victoria Stilwell (47:23.436)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (47:26.001)
who has a voice that people can listen to and is lifted up. And then from there to be attacked when you're finally on a high, just to like put us down in our place, absolutely not. Absolutely not. So when we say women supporting women, it's stuff like this, you know, nobody knew who I really was. And then I got to like speak at Victoria Stilwell's conference. That's women supporting women. That is...
Victoria Stilwell (47:39.126)
No. Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (47:55.067)
boosting somebody and giving them a platform to say, hey, I have this thing. I'm sharing this with you and I'm putting you out in front of people. And I know that happened to so many. You walk the walk and you talk the talk and I love that and I love you for it. Patricia McConnell is another one. She is so giving and constantly just finding people who most people would never have heard of and just like,
Victoria Stilwell (48:17.164)
She is.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (48:24.239)
You should know this person too and share that to her millions of followers. Like we need more of that.
Victoria Stilwell (48:26.509)
Yes.
Yeah. And we do need more of that. And actually she has experienced before she became a applied animal behaviorist, think is the correct term. I'm not entirely sure, but she experienced misogyny in her last, mean, to the point where she writes about it in her book. And yeah, in education, well, she writes about it and it is...
Melissa McCue-McGrath (48:48.103)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (48:52.985)
In education of will, yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (48:59.018)
It is just, I mean, right. Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (49:01.007)
It was the conference room when like all the men and she was sitting there and was going and she was going to be taking notes for them and they get, yes. And then they got to the guy next to her and she opened her mouth to say, and I'm Patricia. And the guy to her right jumped in and just like, was if she was persona non grata.
Victoria Stilwell (49:09.14)
Everyone was introducing themselves, weren't they?
Melissa McCue-McGrath (49:25.191)
And I've seen women on stages, like in my dog training history, I got my certification in 2008. I've been training since 2004. Having seen in my lifetime, doctors of animal behavior on stages, female doctors on stages, being belittled and targeted by men and being just kind of needled and having them honestly say,
well, you know, I'm just trying to get her goat with other men standing there and other women watching this on the stage and just watching this professional just trying to like brush it off and keep going because that's what we have to do because we can't acknowledge it where we're basically in the most vulnerable position we could be. So we have to just like either that awkward smile and just keep going or
We address it and then derail an entire conference, right? Exactly.
Victoria Stilwell (50:26.252)
Yeah. And then you're called the bee. You're called the owl and she's, she's, yeah, she's a challenge. She's that you're, you're the one that's called out.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (50:35.341)
Exactly. So trying to find a way to like, we, as women have been surviving this since we were born. So we know the deflection game, the appeasement game, this smile instead of say what you really want to say game, the fact that we are generally smaller than men. My favorite thing to say, and I remember saying this to my dad who, who was speaking of a dominance.
based fella, he taught weapons at West Point. And for those who don't know what that is, that is our army where we teach people to shoot other people for the military. So my dad taught weapons there and he was also a corrections officer at a state prison in Maine. So he was a pretty tough guy, obedience above all. He raised his dogs that way. He raised his three kids that way.
Victoria Stilwell (51:10.694)
yes, Military Academy.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (51:33.615)
I remember I am five foot four and I'm not very heavy. And he would tell me, you have to alpha roll these dogs. I was seven and I suffered a level five bite at seven as a result of how this dog was treated. And I know that now, but back then we didn't. And as I got older and more confident in...
Victoria Stilwell (51:43.744)
Take off.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (52:01.775)
started doing this work more, I distinctly remember looking at him and going, dad, like, you're a lot bigger than I am. You can maybe alpha roll this dog. You can maybe use this technique to get compliance. I don't have that luxury. This dog outweighs me. I do not have the luxury of trying to alpha roll this dog or put it in its place, which isn't going to work anyway. We know that. But if I'm trying to have this conversation,
with somebody who subscribes to that, I don't have the luxury of just like putting a dog on a choke chain and doing it harm because it's not listening to me. If that dog spins around, I'm dead. Like if I'm dealing with 130 pound Rottweiler, that dog outweighs me. And I do work with these dogs and I'm not dead and I've never been bitten again. And I don't use those techniques. I can't. Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (52:57.506)
Right. And that's the same. That's the same thing. I don't use those things. I've worked with those dogs ever since I, you know, I started this business. I've worked with all those kinds of dogs. I'm regularly like accused of like, well, Victoria, I really want to see you do a high drive dog. really want to see you do. I'm like, you're just, could you like, there's 150 episodes if it's me or the dog on there. Go just go look at that. Right. I don't have to prove.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (53:06.011)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (53:26.366)
anything to you, right? Just go and look at those. But it's used as like a, it's like you are not as good as a guy who can do this with a malinois because Victoria not. And no, I can do this, but I do it in a way where I am not punishing and I'm not alpha rolling and I deal with tricky, tricky cases.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (53:31.355)
Yeah!
It's a weapon.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (53:42.395)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (53:54.907)
Yes! Yes!
Victoria Stilwell (53:56.416)
With dogs that I'm telling you, you alpha roll them, this dog will take your arm off. So you know what? I'm going to respect this dog. and, like I do every single dog, whether it's a chihuahua or that big pit bull that I first saw, I'm going to respect it because I ain't going to, my head will be taken off by that pit bull if I even try to do that. So we found a better way of doing it yet. Still, we are torn up.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (54:02.285)
You will not have an arm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (54:12.955)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (54:26.254)
because of it. And still, even in the world, I go back to the world of entertainment because it's the world I know, you look at the, I think it is 67 % male, the rest female when it comes to nature presenters. So people who present on nature and science and dog training and
Melissa McCue-McGrath (54:26.871)
Mm-hmm. Yup.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (54:48.679)
Victoria Stilwell (54:55.574)
That is, and when we talk on the screen, on camera, it's weighted way to male and even presenters in other not animal related industries. In the entertainment world, it's predominantly male. And that's just the way it is. So as females, I also think that we have to stop apologizing.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (55:06.373)
Yeah.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (55:13.201)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (55:23.736)
We're so good at like taking it on the chin and apologizing and okay. And to say, we're here. We are very talented at what we do. We are very good at what we do. We're gonna teach you and we are effective. Employ us because we are the best. And I think women have to get better and non-binary have to get better at saying that.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (55:33.649)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (55:42.982)
Yes!
Melissa McCue-McGrath (55:49.265)
Yes, agreed, agreed, They do, right? They don't have a problem.
Victoria Stilwell (55:50.146)
Cause the other side do.
problem at all. this look, and I know Melissa, my husband is an amazing man. we know a lot of him. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And, know, he loves his sports. But we're not minbashing. We are just saying, unfortunately, the reality of this industry.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (56:06.791)
I can attest to that. He is the nicest fella.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (56:24.869)
And I think by talking about our reality, it's hard anyway, because we know that our reality is painted a very specific way in media or whatever. But when you talk about your actual experiences, they're just not believed. We have 3,000 documents that illustrate that, right? We can have woman after woman after woman coming forward with either Epstein files or dog training.
Victoria Stilwell (56:41.613)
Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (56:47.885)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (56:53.367)
whatever the case might be, you have women coming forward in droves and then you get one guy who says, no, but I know better little lady. And it's every facet of our existence. And it's that piece of it that I hope, I hope that's not the main takeaway in the book or in our conversation, but that is a huge piece of like,
Victoria Stilwell (57:04.972)
And then it's.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (57:20.495)
If you're going to understand this industry, you have to understand who's in it, who is shaping this industry. And even with us shaping it, it is so profoundly unfair and weaponized against us.
Victoria Stilwell (57:33.25)
Yeah, it really is. And so what the solution to that is, is to be confident in yourself, stand up for yourself. Yes, be kind, being kind doesn't mean you have to be railroaded by people that are unkind. You can still speak up for good and for truth. And also just stand up for each other.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (57:53.094)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (57:57.797)
Yes!
Victoria Stilwell (57:58.294)
And for not and to recognize if you are those one of those women that are holding up the misogyny. Like take a look at yourself. Right. Yeah. Why? Ask and take a good look at yourself.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (58:06.535)
Why? Ask yourself why. Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (58:12.977)
take a look at why you're holding up this pillar and who is it really benefiting? Because usually when those pillars fall, those are the first women to be taken out by it. And it's a bad place to be standing when the building falls.
Victoria Stilwell (58:23.724)
Yes.
Victoria Stilwell (58:28.972)
it truly is. It truly is. And you know, I did see this and we'll end with this, but I did see this really interesting post where somebody was saying about, you know, that sort of divide in dog training is very much like the divide in politics right now in America. Is that one side is definitely the more kind of aligns with more of the chomps piece and then the other side definitely aligns more with the Democrats. I mean, it just, and you know what, it's true.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (58:45.159)
Yeah.
Victoria Stilwell (58:55.93)
There's so much evidence to support it. It's true. And we're not just saying, because you're Republican. No, like my mother-in-law is a Republican, right? There's a lot of wonderful people that I know that are Republicans and don't support what's going on now. So it's not necessarily that, but it's just, it's really interesting. It's that mindset.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (58:56.132)
It is.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (59:02.279)
No, no, no.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (59:08.839)
100%.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (59:17.369)
It's the extremeness of that mindset and the deafness in which you can weaponize perceived weakness and do harm to somebody else. Don't do that, guys. Don't do that. Don't do that. No.
Victoria Stilwell (59:34.734)
Right. Yeah. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. I wanted to talk a little more. Well, I know that we've already done a podcast about the incredible work you did with these dogs that truly were very successful and continue to be successful sniffing out the invasive lanternfly that literally will help America eat because getting rid of really important crops and stuff. But we have run out of time and Melissa, this book,
Misadventures of the Worlds, okay, as dog trainer, get it. Thank you so much for being a VSA faculty advisor, being a trainer, doing the amazing work you're doing now to really help save vast ecosystems. And thank you so much for writing this book and also, you know, starting this conversation, which I think needs to grow. And I think women need to do better, be better at supporting other women.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:00:26.599)
Yes.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:00:30.051)
I agree. And in supporting other women, I would also just like to give one quick hat tip. know we're running out of time to both you and to Tiffany Lovell, who is at VSA. I asked people in this industry to write what they wish they knew before they got into this industry. And I used them between chapters and I had a whole bunch and my publisher had picked, of course, a brilliant quote from you and also from Tiffany Lovell as well. So thank you to you both for helping support.
Victoria Stilwell (01:00:39.534)
Thank you.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:00:57.007)
me and this is just one way that women support women. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Victoria Stilwell (01:01:02.316)
You are very welcome. yes, Tiffany, adore her. She's amazing. And so are you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:01:06.331)
The best.
Melissa McCue-McGrath (01:01:10.769)
Thank you.
Victoria Stilwell (01:01:12.738)
That was probably one of my most very favorite podcasts that we've ever done. I hope that you enjoyed it and I hope that you've learned a lot from it. And I hope that it gives you pause and I hope that it gives you strength and confidence and takes you through, especially if you're a female non-binary, if you are, you know, if you feel that you are bullied in any way or picked on because of your belief system, just know that there's so many women out there that and non-binary that will support you. We're all here and all you need to do is to reach out. Thank you so much for listening. You all take care.
