Just plain rude?

[JudyN]

Jasper is far too full of beans this morning Of course, he had to chase after the jogger who had asked me 'Is he OK, because I'm a bit nervous of dogs.' And he never chases joggers... Come to think of it, yesterday, as I walked him on lead past another dog whose owner pulled it over to the side of the path, just as I said 'Mine's OK' (as owners often see his muzzle and assume he's dog reactive) he aimed a volley of barking at the other dog

Anyway, at one point on this morning's walk he decided another dog was going to play with him whether she wanted to or not, and she didn't. His play involved throwing paws at her back, chasing her, and a lot of snarly growling. Another couple of dogs turned up and I think he was wondering which one of those to pester next. I very quickly changed routes and called him on.

I know that ideally I wouldn't even let him approach other dogs, but it's very rare for him to behave like this. Undoubtedly it is extremely bad manners (and he wouldn't dare do it with a lot of dogs) but what I'm wondering is, given the growling, whether I can assume that it is over-boisterous bullying play rather than aggression. I know lurchers can sound very fierce when they play, so can't go on that. I've a feeling 'proper' aggression would involve a lot less bouncing around and a lot more posturing.

To a certain extent, it probably doesn't make much difference. The other dog doesn't like it, and he shouldn't do it

[WufWuf]

I think you've got it JudyN, it sounds like pushy play to me.

It kind of sound like silly young dog who's not really sure what the rules of the game are but he wants to play it NOW.

I didn't hear the growl (obviously, I wasn't hiding in the bushes) but sometimes a very snarly growl can be seen in dogs who aren't all the confident when they play. I've seen a fair few dogs fights (dog shelter pack) and really you do know when it's fighting. One thing I've noticed is that the quality of the growl changes to a lower pitched growl or often no growl at all (well they've already warned them and they didn't listen so why waste their breath?) That doesn't mean that the other dog didn't feel threathened.

I think the best thing you could do for now is to remove him the second he looks over excitied by the other dog or, of course, if the other dog doesn't look happy.

Is there anything he finds super exciting that you can do with him? I'm trying to work on this with my own girl as she's an adrenaline junkie (from fighting in the shelter and being a terrier) if I can channel the excitiement she'll keep her attention on me instead of looking to go shout in another dogs face (she ALWAYS picks the same type of dog to do this to, one she knows is not that confident/aggressive and won't just take her head off, usually collie crosses)

I've been building Honey's interest in tug toys (she didn't play AT ALL when we first got her) and I bring 2 or 3 with me, I tease her with one and when she looks excitied I let her start tugging then I'll either let her "win" the toy or I'll get her to release it and throw it for her instantly, I then take out another toy and tease her with that, rinse and repeat! While she's either running off with her prize or running after the thrown toy I go get the other tug and start over. I generally keep her on a long line so if it looks like she wants to zoom off I can pick up the line and have her zoom a little with me then get her back onto the tug. (Her favorite tugs are actually furry scarves from charity shops that I fold and knot into tug toys) This generally only last a few minutes and I can see her energy dropping once she's gotten her crazies out.

Ooops I've just remember that Jasper is muzzeled on walks so really that's useless to you for walking. If you have a garden you could try doing this at home so he's getting his "fix" of exciting play from you and doesn't feel the need to mob other dogs to get a thrill!

Hopefully if I've said anything else stoopid the experts will put me straight!

[JudyN]

Yes, the muzzle is a problem for distracting him on walks. It's true he can manage to pick up all sorts of things while wearing it, even tennis balls, but I really don't want to give him more practice at this!

He does need something else to do on walks, though, because his prey drive is beginning to be even more of a pain in the bum and he spends most of a walk on alert and looking off into the horizon for something to chase. We went to the New Forest on Monday and he was in hunting mode before we'd even got out of the car... inevitably he spotted a deer and may well have caught up with it if it hadn't been about a mile away already. He drove it in a circle all the way back to us (intentionally?) and was only a few metres behind when they crossed the path in front of us. Fortunately, by then he'd exhausted himself and gave up. I've never known him be so quiet under a pub table afterwards, but I think we're going to avoid the New Forest in future!

Maybe I need to forget about not encouraging picking things up with his muzzle on... Emmabeth has offered to make a couple of rabbit skin toyd for him (though I'm not holding my breath as she's busy moving house). I wonder if she could sew a squeak inside them?

[bendog]

Just a thought but you could teach him to find a toy and show you where it is without him having to pick it up. Like if you could teach him similar to a pointer or drug dog, to "point" or sit and bark when he's found a toy that you've hidden, and then you can give him a treat.

Or play hide and seek (you let him run ahead, hide behind a tree and then get him to find you)
This is even better with two people and you can call him between the two of you.

jaspers playing is just playing I think, but it doesn't mean it won't get him into trouble one day. If the other dog reacted aggressively would Jasper have fought back do you think, or run away/backed off?

Because I can tell you know, if he did that to Ben, Ben would react aggressively. He doesn't bite, but he'll paw and snarl and snap. And in that situation I've seen dogs be really calm ("whats this stupid terrier doing, I hope he leaves me alone") or get into a scrap with him and start rolling around fighting or put Ben firmly on his back and stand over him to make him back down.

My worry would be that one day Jasper might pick on the wrong dog and if it doesn't want to play then he might end up in a real fight and either get himself hurt, or hurt another dog in retaliation.

[emmabeth]

I can definitely make you a 'SqueakyBeast' that lives in your pocket... hehehe, they can come in very useful.

I think - judicious use of a long line, the Voice of Doom and keep telling yourself 'this too will pass'! He sounds like he is just 'that way out' today and hes being pushy and rude because its fun and hes testing out what reactions he will get.

Or you could nail his feet to a skate board and have him as a 'pull-along-lurcher'....

[JudyN]

Just a thought but you could teach him to find a toy and show you where it is without him having to pick it up.

That's a really good idea - thanks

If the other dog reacted aggressively would Jasper have fought back do you think, or run away/backed off?

Based on behaviour to date, he'd have picked up on the signs before approaching and stayed clear. Though I have seen him put a paw on another dog's back (a young husky, which sends mixed messages to Jasper's head, as 'young' means he can muscle in and 'husky' means scary ) and immediately cower and run to a safe distance to see the reaction, like a naughty schoolboy ringing the doorbell and running away. However, I have seen signs of him getting more reactive, such as barking back at dogs who bark at him which he used to ignore. I'm pretty sure this is just part of growing up and testing his muscles to see how macho he can be, but I'm aware it could develop into an issue so I'm going to walk him past other dogs with a bit of sausage under his nose, I think.

Emmabeth, I've never managed the Voice of Doom I have tried soooooo hard, but it just doesn't work and on the occasions I really need it, he's so fired up it would probably just add to his arousal level when I need him to calm down. One lurcher trainer once told me to respond as if he'd come up behind me at a bar and grabbed my bum. But he had nice twinkly eyes so I may have given the wrong response...... (He also said to me about Jasper's jumping up 'you wouldn't let me jump all over you like that, would you?' and I replied 'Ummmmm......' )

I haven't used a long line since he was a pup and got into anawful tangle when I did! As long as he'll come away when called I'd rather avoid it. Quite like the skateboard idea though... I could put a saddle on him and ride downhill

[WufWuf]

Honey is also very into hunting and yes it can be a pain in the bee hind. I've been trying for awhile to find some rabbit skin I could use as a reward for recall but no one in Ireland hunts rabbits (because of myxomatosis). It would proably be a fantastic reward for him and keep him focused on you. Am I right in thinking that Jasper can be very guardy? Not sure how he'd feel about letting you have his "kill" if he is guardy so you'd proably need a couple of them, squeakers would be great his they float his boat (Honey thinks squeakers will rise up and bite her...)

I don't know if it'd work for Jasper but "hunting" pieces of dried food that have a bit of a roll to them seems to help her urges a little, you need some solid ground like a path for this to work though as she needs the chase aspect of it, I also play find the food in grass but it not as big of a thrill for her as chasing the food down.

Just have to add that I'd pay money to see Jasper in full flight he's and amazing looking boy and even bigger then I thought untill I saw the picture of him with his Granny

Honey's about the size of his head so I don't really have to worry about her hunting deer (we don't run into them on a normal day to day walks as I live in the city) even swans are not prey, they're scary Honey eating monsters that must be shouted at until they go away, which if you've come across swans they don't run they like to deal with the problem head on. The swans in my area have drowned several dogs, luckily she's not a water dog so I try to keep her distracted and keep her moving. A few months ago I was bending down right by the water to scoop a poop and I heard a huge hissss in my ear I looked up and was face to face with a very angry swan, no arguments from my girl when I said "this way" and scattered as fast as my little feet would carry me

[JudyN]

Yep, you're right about Jasper being guardy, Wuf Wuf! The rabbit skins are mainly so I can work on this in a controlled way - I can produce them when I have the time to hang around and not worry about how I can get home, and if necessary he can carry one all the way home and I can tell people it's a toy! Plus having two, and arming myself with some raw rabbit chunks should help work on exchanges. That's the plan, anyway...

I don't know if it'd work for Jasper but "hunting" pieces of dried food that have a bit of a roll to them seems to help her urges a little, you need some solid ground like a path for this to work though as she needs the chase aspect of it, I also play find the food in grass but it not as big of a thrill for her as chasing the food down.

Another really good idea, which I think he'd love! I'm trying to think of some treats that will roll and somewhere I can roll them where they won't pick up a layer of dirt. There's a disused clay pit not far from here..... Ooh, baby tomatoes! Shame he can't have grapes, they would be ideal....

Just have to add that I'd pay money to see Jasper in full flight he's and amazing looking boy and even bigger then I thought untill I saw the picture of him with his Granny

It really is something to behold Harder to appreciate when you know just what he could do to the deer if he caught it (even with the muzzle) and that when he finally comes back he'll have picked up a new collection of injuries and be so exhausted he'll collapse onto his side and not be able to shift for some time He has eyed up swans before now but I think he's only seen them on lead (that's him on lead, not the swans ) and is sensibly quite wary.

[WufWuf]

Just noticed you're last post, too funny

One lurcher trainer once told me to respond as if he'd come up behind me at a bar and grabbed my bum. But he had nice twinkly eyes so I may have given the wrong response...... (He also said to me about Jasper's jumping up 'you wouldn't let me jump all over you like that, would you?' and I replied 'Ummmmm......' )

The Voice of Doom only works if you really mean it and believe you can back it up, dog's really know if you don't believe in it. It took me ages to get it and now I'm worried it's to Doomy... Honey decided to sit down in her "I need to think about this before I'll move" pose yesterday - in the middle of the road - as a car was coming.... Well Voice of Doom "Honey Quick" moved her but I felt like I'd slapped her as she's very sensitive/delicate from actually being slapped, repeatedly, in the face (NOT by me). I only ever use it on other dogs and I never say her name like that but I got a fright as she was the length of the lead behind me and I knew no amount of sweet talk will get her going until she's assesed the situation once the bum is on the ground.

The long line takes a little getting used to and once you get the hang of it it's very useful, I actually just clip in onto the handle of her regular lead so that I know I can revert back to the short one very easily, it also give you another handle if you just want to shorten it temporarily! My long line is actually a piece of washing line (much to Hubby's embarressment), I did get a proper one yesterday to spare Hubbys blushes and used it for the first time today, well once it had been dragged through the grass it weighed a tonne as it was soaking wet and I was longing for my washing line...

[JudyN]

The tomatoes worked really well... I told him to wait until they were halfway down the slope, then released him. He had to pulp them before he could slurp them up through his muzzle - in the second pic below I think he'd found a bit more pulp on the muzzle when he was halfway back. I'm now thinking about other food that would work. I suppose quails' eggs would be a bit decadent





Had a problem on the way home as it was getting dark, though - he stopped dead on the trailway and wouldn't budge. I couldn't decide whether a) he wanted to go back the way we came as we sometimes meet hubby coming from work down there, b) he remembered the rabbit he'd left on the heath a fortnight ago, c) he wanted more tomatoes or d) he was afraid of the dark. Although he seemed to want to go back the way we'd come, I've decided on d) as he kept looking at me with big scared eyes and seemed particularly worried by the lights of the bikes that went past, and he seemed more relaxed when we finally got off the tree-lined trailway and onto streetlit pavement. (This would also explain why he has to chase away the imaginary monsters at the bottom of the garden whenever he goes out in the dark.) It took a lot of cajolery to get him to the road, including promises of tea when we got home Interestingly although he wouldn't move towards me for a treat, he did come to me when I held out my hand for a 'kiss' and I could then give him a relaxing ear-rub. The reason I'm going wildly off topic here is that previously, I wouldn't have pandered to him in this way (to echo another thread), but I would pretty definitely have sparked a tantrum from him. We managed to get home through reassurance, bribery and ear rubs because I decided to treat his behaviour as fear and not bloody-mindedness.

[Nettle]

We managed to get home through reassurance, bribery and ear rubs because I decided to treat his behaviour as fear and not bloody-mindedness.

WELL DONE

Dogs don't do the stuff that brasses us off to brass us off - they do it because it seems the best idea at the time.

[minkee]

I think your dedication to finding a game Jasper can play is wonderful. What a lucky boy to have you. Plus I've totally fallen in love with the Soppy Jasper as seen in the pictures :) Not sure I want to meet Tantrum Jasper though!

[JudyN]

Luckily he's Soppy Jasper far more often than he's Tantrum Jasper

[ClareMarsh]

Bless him, I actually feel like I know Jasper, although I'm still thinking you should write that book Judy

[WufWuf]

I'm glad he liked the game, Honey gets "the look" any time she finds a new piece of ground she thinks we could play the game on

Honey's afraid of the dark too! She didn't want to go for walks after dark for the last 6 weeks or so as there were lot's of fireworks in the run up to halloween. Then last week I took her out for her bedtime pee and she insisted that she'd really like to go for a walk, as I was already in my night clothes my OH shoved his shoes on and off they went! He said she just took him around a few streets and then home. Since then we've been taking her out for little evening walks every few days so as not to push our luck.

She also often has to chase the garden monsters at night too but I've found that she feels much better about it if she's on lead so that's what I've been doing (long line again)

Honey also will not come for a treat if she's gotten a fright but she will come to me for some comfort if I crouch down, she'll tuck herself into me and gather herself before she feels able to move on. I just squat with her every few steps and stroke her softly and calmly and it seems to make her feel a little braver. Talking to her when she like this doesn't seem to help, infact it makes her more jittery so I stay quiet and just let her know there's no pressure and she's safe with me.

On the subject of pandering versus listening, these days I try to go where she wants to go unless I know something she doesn't, like there's an off lead mastiff over there that she hasn't seen. I have noticed that she's much more willing to go where I ask her to if I have to since I've adopted this approach. If she wants to go somewhere that's across a road she'll stop, look at where she wants to go, look at me then back to where she wants to go and then just waits for me to decide if we can go that way or not, the more I listen to her the more she trys to talk to me instead of trying to deal with the situation herself.