Why some people don't see progress with reactive dogs

[emmabeth]

Its always safest to assume fear - if its NOT, you will do no harm. If it is, then still, you will do no harm.

If you assume its NOT fear, and it is, and you treat as if its not fear - you can do HUGE amounts of harm in a very very short time.

Some dogs will be pro-active about the things they are worried or scared of - on the whole those dogs tend to be the ones WE have bred to be that way, so Terriers are a great example. Small fiesty dog, bred to take on much larger and often very dangerous prey and either kill it, or hold it at bay until a human can come and finish the job. We have engineered the terrier mind to NEVER back down, to never say die, to wade in there all guns blazing and fight the enemy in the trenches, not wait for him to come over the top!

Is it then any wonder that a terrier needs to only get bitten or just scared, by a thing once, before he decides he is going to meet potential threats head on and drive them away in future!

So, some dogs can look confident, and behave aggressively, and yet still be scared.

Some dogs get a kick out of fighting with other dogs - and its easy to then think 'ooh well they can't be scared' - but what drives that desire to fight in the first place? Insecurity, anxiety - in otherwords.. fear! Confident, happy dogs who are secure with who they are, do NOT pick fights.

Redirected aggression is another thing - the original aggression is fear. The redirection is frustration and a lack of self control. Humans do this all the time - who HASN'T had a bad day and lashed out at the next person who happened to cross their path? Most of us will have, many of us know we do it and try to stop, some of us succeed - and some people have either no idea or no real care, and so continue to redirect and take their frustrations out on others.

Sometimes the cause is obvious - in your example, seeing the dog through the fence or a dog on a lead, and redirecting to his own leash or your feet - thats pretty obvious. The behaviour over being asked to get off the sofa ISN'T redirected aggression, thats pure fear - many many dogs have unpleasant associatiosn with being asked to get off furniture, because we humans are atrocious at body language and we will ask, demand and shout at a dog to do something, whilst our body language (standing directly in front of them, leaning over, reaching towards them, trying to look 'stern') is saying 'DO NOT COME NEAR ME OR IM GOING TO ATTACK YOU!... any wonder dogs back away, weld themselves to the cushion and won't move!

Its very very easy to accidentally teach a dog to ignore a 'get off th esofa' command, and then to associate one with unpleasant stuff, and so lots and lots of dogs fear it, and lots more will eventually react aggressively. Just think about how you are stood when you ask, stand sideways on, INVITE your dog off the sofa with a pleasant tone, and make sure you are not stood in their path, they have room to get off. Offer a reward for complying. Easy

[dog2]

i wish i had found this forum and you folks sooner.i then wouldnt have had to stop fostering him before he was ready to go to another home only to be rejected for his behaviour.i do find all this difficult still though.seems you have to think always before you do or say anything even standing the wrong way.difficult also to find places to walk where there wont be other dogs especially in the better weather.but worth it all i,m sure when the dog stops being scared and starts to enjoy life.

[reactive123gsd]

I like the video too! That lady was so intresting to hear! I wished the vid lasted longer!

have just been reading more suzanne clothier and she says about body language with reactive dogs ..and the body behaviour of the dog i was fostering was as she describes not fearful but aggressive as in wanting to get to the other dog pulling towards it and snarling barking not turning away and trying to hide.so is that still fear?
also i was reading about redirected aggression and he has that also as when he couldnt get to the dog in question maybe it was behind a fence or on a lead he would then 'attack' his lead or go for my feet.in the home if we had to tell him to get off the furniture or whatever he would then get very mouthy and his eyes would change appearance to a menacing look.the people who had him after he left me(they gave him up after a couple of days)told him off for going for their friends dog and the man bent down to him and wagged his finger whereupon the dog jumped up and grazed the mans face it would have been worse if the man hadnt jumped up out of the way.He has now been deemed not for homing with children incase a child were to have to tell him to get down or whatever.

I was about to ask the same thing! Emma's answers is awesome!

[Nettle]

The snarling and barking, rearing up, lungeing, is to drive the threat away. Confident dogs don't feel the need to drive other dogs away - only scaredy dogs.

Sticking your face in a dog's face, sticking up a finger and wagging it in a dog's face, probably shouting or scolding as well, is a great way to get bitten, as the man found out. The dog feels threatened, and has nowhere to go - what else can it do? It doesn't understand 'telling off'; it thinks it is about to be attacked, and being a terrier, takes up the challenge. A lot of other breeds would, too.

[minkee]

i wish i had found this forum and you folks sooner.i then wouldnt have had to stop fostering him before he was ready to go to another home only to be rejected for his behaviour.i do find all this difficult still though.seems you have to think always before you do or say anything even standing the wrong way.difficult also to find places to walk where there wont be other dogs especially in the better weather.but worth it all i,m sure when the dog stops being scared and starts to enjoy life.

You're allowed to use the 'positive' mentality for yourself too If this dog hadn't come into your life at all, you wouldn't be learning all these things now. And as you say, there is a *lot* to learn! And so so so many dogs that could benefit from their owner having a little bit of this knowledge. Sometime in the future, when the time is right, a dog will show up that you CAN help, and your foster dog will have started you on the path to finding & helping him or her.

[dog2]

this morning strangely the rescue called and asked me if i would consider having him back as a foster again getting him out of the kennels and back into a home.need to talk to my husband as he knew how hard i was finding it all but do i now have the tools to help him or having had the break is he better off where he is.he has been away 2 weeks just over.will it be the better thing for him or do i need to put it behind me...i really dont know.sorry know i shouldnt be asking.

[jacksdad]

you sent me a PM asking if you should take this JRT back. since there isn't anything personal in the question, I am going to answer here. I haven't ignored you, but giving this some thought.

you asked a few questions....

1. should you take him back
2. will the training work
3. will he be safe with the grand kids, (he seemed to be the first time around)
4. how to be the boss of him and make sure he knows he is below the grand kids

You also seem to be struggling with his appearance of being "ok" at the shelter with other dogs. clearly I can't know for sure as I am not seeing him at the shelter, BUT I would bet $100 he isn't ok. Simply shutdown. JRT's aren't large dogs and even if he was a great dane, he would still be just 1 dogs verse 10, 20, 30 or more dogs depending how many are at the shelter. of which undoubtedly there are some who are also having fear issues. combined all that, he is most likely shutdown and trying to not draw attention to him self as much as he is able. So again, I can't and haven't seen him in the shelter, but I would bet that $100 he isn't fine.

should you take him back? IF you ware willing to put in the time, realize this isn't going to be fast. We are talking months, maybe years. AND accept you may not truly be fostering, but his new home forever, and ever. You will be halfway to your answer.

The next part is the grand kids. IF he is starting to redirect and lash out at humans....that raises some red flags. with dogs like him they often get "worse" before they get better. Mostly because they still are being put to close to what scares them. depending on the age of the grand kids they may not be at a good age to enter act with him. young kids can be unpredictable, make fast and (from the dog's perspective) threatening and scary movements. and some ages are grabby. if any of this scares him, he will lash out. maybe just looks scary, bark, lung etc. BUT he could also bit if he is overly stressed or his fear reaction (which is basically a plea to give him some distance) is ignored.

Without putting your grand kids and him "together" you will never know. BUT is that a risk worth taking since your seeing redirection to humans? probably not. I know I wouldn't take that risk. So, If you were to take him back, at least for a while I would urge no contact with the grand kids to play it safe.

Will the training work? There is NO way to know this until you dive in a try.

how to be the boss and let him know he is below the grand kids? This is actually the last thing you want to work on or worry about. his issues are FEAR and NOT about who is boss. You provide food and set the time he eats, you select the time for training, walks, bathroom breaks, etc. there is NOTHING more that needs to be done to be "boss". If you take him back, your efforts need to be focused on building a bond with him, making him feel safe and protecting him from what scares him. Not being "boss".

So should you take him back? IF you have no other dogs in the house, can keep the grand kids and the dog separate for a while (which might translate to months and maybe forever. assume the worst, be happy when it doesn't come to pass), realize your life will revolve around him for a little while, be willing to tackle a steep learning curve, really, really accept and believe this is fear, be ready to be his forever home regardless of any "this is temporary" comments from the rescue as this could take months to years to have any significant progress and re homing him after you have "fixed" him could undo your "fix", drop any ideas of need to "establish being boss"... IF you are ok with all that and possibly more, then I would say entertain the idea, think about it, discuss it etc.

If not, walk away. Not everyone is in a place or able to help dogs like this. it really is a lot of hard work and takes a lot of patience and there are no guarantees. I can't really give you a solid "Yes do it" or "no don't". but, two things do make me lean towards saying walk away. 1. Taking him back is being (at least as I understand it) viewed as foster situation. that at some point in the near future he will be moved to someone else in another attempt at a forever home. he really needs where ever he goes next to be his last and final home. the more he is bounced around, the harder it will be to help him. 2. your grand kids. their age (unknown) and safety HAVE to play into this big time. both they and the dog need to be safe from each other.

[Mrs Sowerberry]

I just wanted to say dog2, that I really feel for you. I fostered a dog reactive lurcher for 8 months. We loved him so much but I couldn't commit to keeping him because walking was so traumatic and it was severely limiting where we could go with my young daughter. And although she wanted to keep him I felt that it was actually stopping her experiencing many childhood pleasures that most take for granted. We were given first refusal when someone expressed an interest in him. It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. He went to a new home last saturday (7 days ago) and I feel like I failed and really let him down and gave up on him. My daughter keeps saying she hopes the new owners will send him back (to us) when they see his aggression and despite making the decision I half hope it myself even though I know it would only end in more tears. We brought a puppy home to foster today and it makes me feel like a traitor. When you get involved with rescues and dogs with issues it makes you realise what a mess it all is. There are too many different schools of thought, too many cooks. And just so many dogs needing homes. It is truly shocking. And heartbreaking. (Sorry this is off-topic)

[Ari_RR]

We brought a puppy home to foster today and it makes me feel like a traitor.

Don't spoil the day, Mrs S!! Whatever happened before - it happened already. Bringing the puppy home should be a great and positive experience for all involved, so - enjoy the puppy, and allow him to enjoy his new place and his new humans!

[dog2]

Jacksdad,thankyou SO much for your honest answer.it has given me so much to think about.now the soppy bit...i said to him before he went remember(he wont obviously)that whatever happens i love you.i did love him he brought out in me that feeling.he felt vulnerable to me he felt as if he didnt want to be behaving that way he felt as if he showed me soppy loving behaviour i would be able to brush over the other stuff.he showed me loving eyes and cuddled up to me often.he was trying hard and it was easy for him when there was no threat.when there was a threat it all came unravelled.bless him not his fault but my inadequecy.thats why i feel he deserves more.so when faced with will you take him back i crumble.
mrs.sowerberry...totally understand you.that is more or less what has happened here.but my boy was sent packing after a couple of days with the 'new' people and is back in a kennels.and i am being asked by the rescue would i have him back as a foster.i know as a foster is a loaded comment for would you keep him as we wont find anywhere else for him.and we are paying for him to be in the kennels we wouldnt have to pay for being with you.
jacksdad the rescue has said the vet will give him something like rescue remedy but for dogs...will this be for his benefit and do you know of anything like this?
i realise i must be going on a bit but thats my nature i agonise over things,sorry.

[jacksdad]

well something "like" rescue remedy isn't exactly rescue remedy so I can't completely answer your question. As I understand Rescue Remedy, it's value is in helping with the effects of a stressful experience after the fact. But will have little to no value if you continually are exposed to the source of stress.

As for what the vet may prescribe, that gets real tricky to discus not being a vet. My advice before putting a dog on medication is ideally you do your best to team up with a really good behaviorist who understands that the dog's behavior is really and truly fear based and in the ideal have them and the vet discuss things to ensure appropriate medication. Then give guidance on a behavioral modification plan, which would look very similar to what we would advise here.

However, if this dog was under my care I would give behavior modification without medication a real good try first. I have read enough to understand that sometimes medication is appropriate, but it's not something you want to jump to too quickly.

[dog2]

yes i agree.
thought maybe it was along the lines of a dap diffuser in the home.what are peoples opinions of those?
i have used feliway plugins for my cat when she was spraying in the house as a way of telling other cats to stay out but the only real solution there was to buy a cat flap that enabled only her to come and go,the feliway did help to a certain extent though.guess something like rescue remedy would be papering badly over the cracks.the rescue wanted me to go to the kennels to see the dog but i feel if i take the decision not to have him back that would be hard on him and me to see him again.i have a very big decision to make..

[jacksdad]

wise to decide what you are going to do before seeing the dog.

IF you choose to NOT take him back, DO NOT feel bad. if your not in the right place and time to take on this kind of dog you are NOT doing him or your self any favors taking him on simply because you feel bad for him. oh how it's easy to say that but so hard to do