HELP! Dogsitting - Dog Bit my Neighbour UNPROVOKED

[belrose]

I've got to disagree with this "she didn't know what she was in trouble for" business. SHE KNEW. I am certain. It was about a minute, from the time she bit, to when we went out the back to chastise her. The second we opened the door, she started running away. I could tell by her actions and looking at her face that she knew what she had done, that it was bad and that we were unhappy about it.

I am a very controlled person. This is not about making me feel better. The easiest way for me to make this problem go away would be for me to have taken her straight down to the vet for a shot of green dream. I didn't. I initially did the most appropriate thing I KNEW HOW, and which has successfully worked on many dogs in the past, and then spent practically ALL of this long weekend seeking advice from people (not only on this forum) as to what to do.

At the time I tied her up, I was far more concerned with the safety of my family and neighbours and Gemma's feelings come a not very close second to safety when she is aggressive like that. I wish I could show you the wound on Pete's leg. It will take weeks to heal. It's not minor. It's serious. She's a smart dog. She looked remorseful whenever I looked out the window, and I believe she knew why she was tied up or being punished.

I went back home in order to deal with Gemma quickly before she forgot and left Pete to shower and wash the wound, before I returned with dressings and Betadine etc. I was only home for a couple of minutes before returning to deal with the wound.

Maybe try and think of it this way: Gemma is VERY LUCKY she got smacked and chastised (NOT YELLED AT) rather than bundled into the car and taken straight to the vet to be put down which I think was my partner's preferred course of action (and one I would not have been entirely uncomfortable with, given the dog's history, quality of life and behaviour).

Although Gemma was skittish and afraid for the first couple of days, she has now returned to being more relaxed than I have seen her in the whole year she has lived here. I really don't buy that fact that I've irreparably damaged my relationship with her. On some level, she knows that we are not going to beat her as her owner did. We are very good to her rebuilding the relationship HAS been easy (enough).

I appreciate all the advice but gee it's hard to get to it through the whole you abused the dog and you're a horrible mean person innuendos. I'm doing the best I can, with a dog I don't own and it's a quarter to two in the morning and I'm grumpy cos I'm tired and still trying to figure this out to find the best solution for everyone, especially the dog.

Now let's play nice. The whole basis of your training methods seems to lie at "negative reinforcement is futile and cruel only ever use positive methods" - well how about we assume I'm a dog and use the same principles, OK? I'm a delicate soul as well and it really does smart if I think people think I'm cruel and abusive when all I'm trying to do is help sort this thing out.

[Mattie]

I have read all the posts now and think you are doing really well and taken what has been said very well so well done.

I'm sorry but I do disagree that what we did was abuse, although I am more than willing to listen to alternatives in case it happens again. My priority is the safety of myself, family and neighbourhood and Gemma's "feelings" come a distinct second to that if she behaves as she did. Yes, she was frightened, and we exacerbated it, but I still don't know what alternative method might have been better. We weren't "yelling" at her. We just used a firm,

This

We firmly told her she was a bad dog and she was never to bite anyone ever and smacked her on her haunches a couple of times. Enough for her to know we meant business, but certainly not hard enough to cause any physical damage. She peed herself a couple of times.

and

We tied her up to the clothesline with her leash (it was late afternoon, early evening) as she's a bit of a Houdini when it comes to getting out without you noticing and I couldn't risk her getting out after THAT! I went next door and dressed the wound on our neighbour's leg, and chatted with him and his wife for a couple of hours (doing a lot of apologising as well) and much later that night realised that I couldn't leave the dog tied up overnight as it was going to be very hot the next day, so I let her off the leash about midnight when we went to bed

is abuse.

I can understand, you were very upset at what she had done but treating a dog like this is abuse. We have all made mistakes in the past which we regretted but we also learnt by them and you are learning and have come a long way in a short time.

Also, before I go, in answer to your question about how much responsibility I am willing to take ... I don't really know. I can say for certain that I do not want to own Gemma, personally, but I also know that her owner would not want to give her up ...

This is difficult, there is nothing to stop you taking an active part in her life without owning her. In other words you have a dog, all the fun of exercise and training without having to pay or the food, vets etc.

it has been exceptionally hot here recently

What shelter has she got? This is her owner's responsibility to make sure she has shelter from the sun, rain etc. A dog should never be left without shelter and it has to be suitable for the conditions. If she hasn't got decent shelter maybe you could insist on her owner providing this. Heat does have an averse effect on dogs just like it can for us and she could also be suffering from heat stroke. A paddling pool for her to go into when it is hot may help as well.

I really don't know (for Pete's safety) what else I could have done, but order Gemma in a serious tone to leave and follow her to make sure she did. You've all said what I did was cruel ... but what other reasonable option was there?

That isn't what I would call cruel, it was what came afterwards when you cornered her and smacked her then tied her up that is abuse.

She is currently settled on the mat in the loungeroom and seems like she is back to the dog she was before the biting incident, despite the stress of a bath and w/b experiments. Ooh.. no walk this evening, cos it rained. But lots of attention.

This is good news, well done for getting her back. She sounds very lonely to me which is never good with a dog, as well a bored. Dogs need company, they don't live on their own in the wild and that has stayed with them even though they are domesticated. Many people think it is fine to keep a dog in a yard on its own but that is cruel. I know this isn't our dog and not your decision, but hopefully you will still continue to bring her into the house for attention as much as you can.

We do say things straight on here, we need to otherwise people don't listen to what we say and it is the dogs that suffer. You have taken it and continued to seek advice, so well done. I wish there were a lot more like you and this isn't even your dog but you are trying to help someone else's.

[belrose]

Biting people is abuse.

[Mattie]

Only to us humans, to a dog it isn't. Dogs don't normally bite without a reason, just because we don't know the reason doesn't mean there wasn't one to the dog.

We know a lot more than a dog, our brains are much better and we can think and work things out, a dog can't.

[belrose]

The definition of animal cruelty varies amongst Australia’s states and territories. However, all jurisdictions seek to prohibit the infliction of unnecessary pain on an animal and the failure to take steps to alleviate 'unnecessary pain'. Other examples of acts which could form the basis of a complaint are:

* Exposing an animal to extreme heat or cold (e.g. leaving an animal in a hot car);
* Failing to provide appropriate shelter;
* Failing to provide sufficient food or water;
* Beating, torturing, mutilating or otherwise harming an animal;
* Failing to provide appropriate veterinary treatment for an animal suffering from an injury or illness;
* Abandoning an animal or failing to provide regular care; and
* Using an animal to perform an illegal activity such as dog-fighting or ****-fighting.

Voiceless.org

There are plenty of schools of thought on dog training that recommend light smacks as a form of punishment for unwanted behaviour. I understand that your particular brand of dog training calls for 100% positive reinforcement only, however IT IS NOT THE ONLY METHOD. For Gemma's sake I am trying to learn about this method, but I'm really not up for being accused of "abuse"

Can we please move past it and agree to disagree?

[Nettle]

We humans have to think dog because dogs can't think human. Belrose you have come a long way in a short time, and what we here know has taken us years, decades in some cases, to learn. Along the way, older members such as myself have had several sea changes in understanding and attitude. You need to do that too.

Trust us - the dog didn't know what she was punished for. She knew that you assumed an aggressive appearence, smelt of stress hormones, sounded angry, and she was right - this was not going to be followed by a good time.

You have since got the relationship on a better footing but you still push her too far. Both the bath and wheelbarrow incident was going too fast too soon. You are still lining up for confrontation and thinking the dog must do whatever you want. She can and will but not when forced. That is keeping the lid on a boiling pot, and you were luckier than you know that you didn't get bitten either time.

Re. the fleas, good for you for finding them, and a suitable flea treatment from the vet will sort these out far better than any amount of bathing. Tghis will, probably mean the end of the soreness and irritation.

Despite her having found humans more dangerous than good, she is still prepared to come more than halfway to meet you. Can you do the same for her?

[belrose]

Gemma does have shelter. There are plenty of trees in the backyard, she has a dog house under the awning (which she never ever uses), she could get under the house, under the stairs and additionally I leave the back door to the garage open for her. Often I also leave the back door to the house open for the dog and cat to come and go as they please, even when we go out.

Only to us humans, to a dog it isn't. Dogs don't normally bite without a reason, just because we don't know the reason doesn't mean there wasn't one to the dog.

Well I had a reason for tying her up and it was very closely related to her biting people. I couldn't possibly risk her getting out and doing it again! I also had a need to let her know that she had done something very bad and it could not ever happen again FOR HER OWN GOOD! If she kept biting people she would have to be put down. This is surely worse than chastisement.

I have to go to bed now ... it's 3 am and I've got to try and sort a lot out tomorrow as her owner is back the next day.

Good night, all.[/quote]

[Disney Paws]

This dog doesn't sound like a bad dog, or even a dog who's personality has become one to seem bad to us because of what her owner did. She sounds like a very good dog, but a sensitive one, who just feels betrayed and because of that, is unsure of who to trust. Like others said, she just needs you and the owner to help regain her trust in others.

[Nettle]

I also had a need to let her know that she had done something very bad and it could not ever happen again FOR HER OWN GOOD!

[/quote][/quote]



But you didn't let her know any such thing. This is what we are trying to explain. All you let her know was that you attacked her out of the blue.


Please understand that the canine mind does not work the way yours does.

[emmabeth]

Right it was me that brought up the abuse thing - yes it is and in this country, our rspca has actually prosecuted people for doing almost exactly what you did.

Please believe me there is no anger here from me im not yelling when im typing this i dont feel mad at all, im chilled out at my desk trying to explain.

What surprised me and why I felt the need to point out that the method you had taken was abusive (although granted in the grand scheme of things its not the worst and yes I HAVE done it myself and have learned differently since) was not so much what you did, but that you did it whilst being totally aware that shes already really insecure and fearful of people.

Anyway moving on - as said, dogs dont know when they have done wrong, they dont do guilt and it really is a waste of everyones time and energy in trying to teach them that.
It may have appeared in the past that they understand and know when they are wrong but please just accept from us this is not the case and we can move along to more effective training methods. (And read the thread about dogs and guilt where i have explained why they look like they know they did wrong).

I have to say again and I have to apologise for not saying this enough, I am seriously amazed and impressed that you not only have offered to look after this difficult and messed up doglet, but are taking a huge amount of responsibility for her and trying to improve her lot in life. What you are doing regardless of the incident after the bite, is well above andbeyond the call of duty - we dont appear to have a suitable smiley face for this so imagine a bunch of flowers :flowers:

I think your plan to have a full and frank discussion with his owner is a good one. I am not fully aware of the laws in Aus regarding dogs who have bitten (i know they are different to here in the UK).. so go with what is best for the dog - if that means shocking the owner into changing his ways, so be it...

Vets are not always the best source of advice for behavioural issues - vets fix broken physical things really, and all too often their knowledge on behavioural issues is lacking, outdated or downright dangerous. I would stick to making sure shes as painfree as is possible - its possible a change of food could help her skin (as cereal free as is achievable) and perhaps the addition of some garlic to her diet would also help her skin (adn ward off fleas).

[Horace's Mum]

Belrose, you are doing really well, especially when there is no need for you to take this much care over Gemma as she is not your dog. You have had a lot to think about now that we have all shown you a different way to look at what happened, and as Nettle said it takes most people a lot longer to learn this. I learnt it relatively quickly because I had to - or give back my dog which I was not prepared to do.

I have become somewhat of an expert in monitoring human body language to see how it affects my dog, to the extent that if my dog reacts I immediately look to see why, at the same time as removing him from the situation. I have to be very very careful not to show disappointment or annoyance unless I really mean it otherwise at best I undo whatever I have just been working on, at worst I get bitten. Please, please trust us when we say she is reacting to your body language, not showing guilt. Someone I know didn't believe it, tried an experiment because her dog always showed guilt when she had peed on the floor - she came in one day when the dog hadn't done it, reacted exactly as if she had and hey presto a happy little dog immediately looked guilty. (Don't try this with Gemma though - she has enough on her plate!!)

You are doing very well with a difficult situation, we are all here to support you, but so many people come on here and hear what they want to, that sometimes the responses are a bit more brusque than maybe they could be. It is not personal to you, I know that Emmabeth, Mattie and Nettle all have a lot of respect for you for simply coming on here, being so honest, and coming back for more help. So many people post once and then disappear, you have stuck with it and are trying to learn, and keep asking for more infromation. Well, keep asking, we will keep making suggestions, if something doesn't work, come back and we will all try again.

We have a lot of respect for you (I know the others won't mind me including them in this), for trying so hard, for wanting to change, and for asking for help. Help us by hearing what we are saying, question things you don't understand, and keep your mind open to new ideas, even though they may go against what you "have always done". Stick with it, we are here for you, keep us posted on what is happening.

Your plan for the owner sounds great, I really hope they are as willing to listen as you have been. Poor Gemma deserves a break, she shouldn't have had to bite to be given it, but now someone is listening to her side of the story, she has a chance to be a happy little dog. You are the one who has decided to try and listen, so be a good representative for her and try to keep her point of view in your mind. But remember, she is a dog and not a person, she uses doggy tools and doggy communications, and it is up to us to teach her what is and isn't acceptable in the human world, but in a way which is easy for her to understand.

[Horace's Mum]

PS another rule you might find useful - you have approximately 3 seconds after a behaviour in which to reward or reprimand it (not that I reprimand but it is the same rule either way). Outside this 3 secs the dog will become confused about exactly what it is being rewarded or reprimanded for. it is also the last behaviour that it associates with that reward or reprimand - so if you call your dog and it doesn't come immediately but after a few secs, you are rewarding the come, if you reprimand it for not coming immediately then the dog thinks it is being told off for coming. Hope that makes sense, but it might help you to understand about timing when you are working with Gemma. If you miss the window, then tell her off for any reason (as in the yard for example) then she doesn't know why she is being told off, or she thinks she is being told off for sniffing or lying down or whatever it is she is doing right then. Be careful with you timing!!

[Mattie]

There are plenty of schools of thought on dog training that recommend light smacks as a form of punishment for unwanted behaviour. I understand that your particular brand of dog training calls for 100% positive reinforcement only, however IT IS NOT THE ONLY METHOD. For Gemma's sake I am trying to learn about this method, but I'm really not up for being accused of "abuse"

Can we please move past it and agree to disagree?

I think you will find that we are not 100% positive trainers, that is impossible to be but we don't smack our dogs.

It isn't the smacking that is the problem though, it is punishing the dog so long after the biting, the dog doesn't know why she was being punished.

Think of it this way, you are taken prisoner by someone who doesn't speak your language and are in a room. The person who took you prisoner wants you to move to the other side of the room, he tells you to move, you didn't understand him and asks him about it. He hits you. You are shocked at this.

He tells you again, again you don't understand so he hits you again only harder. You don't have a clue what he wants but think he wants you to move so you move sideways, get hit even harder.

Eventually after being hit quite a few times, harder each time, you end up where he wants you and don't get hit. You now know that those words meant to move to that place.

As Horace's mum says, 3 seconds after a dog has done something it is forgotten so punishing a dog after this is worthless and can make a dog extremely nervous.

You have come a long way in a short time especially as you were thrown in the deep end with this dog but she is a dog and doesn't understand English and needs to be taught what words mean.

[belrose]

Emmabeth,

If you have time, would you please send me some links to information where I can verify this? I spent a bit of time last night trying to define what animal abuse is and I couldn't find anything that indicated that what I did was abuse. Surely dog training schools wouldn't be training something that is illegal or they'd all be shut down and the trainers would all go to jail?

You wouldn't believe the way sheep and cattle dogs (working dogs) are trained. To my mind it is cruel, but it is so very effective. They wind up being the most trustworthy, skilled animals you'll ever meet. I've been brought to tears watching them trained (years ago when I lived in the country) and yet it's extremely common, well known and accepted.

I am getting advice from a lot of different sources, plenty of which advise just having Gemma put down (I would rather not ... it's not her fault, but then her quality of life is so sh!t even with our influence, maybe it is the kindest thing), plenty of others which recommend far sterner treatment than we administered ... and some of these people are professional dog trainers. I think in particular relation to Gemma, your methods are porbably the best, as she is so frightened. I don't know whether I'll be persuaded that 100% positive is the way to go in general with other dogs or not, though. I discovered this morning, that she responds better to commands in a higher voice (although maybe it was the pork mince) than a lower voice, which is against everything I've ever heard before. But I guess I can understand why, with this particular dog. I sat out on the back step this morning feeding the cat bits of pork mince, (cat was outside), gemma came up to me from inside the house doing her "you have food, I'd love food, but I don't want a belting" dance. So for 10-15 minutes or so, (the cat will probably never forgive me) I shared the mince between the two of them, getting Gemma to sit, come or (with limited success and I probably shouldn't have gone this far) drop down. She definitely had a handle on the sit thing (she already knows the term and does it without food, but anyway) and eventually decided it was easier to just stay sitting and be constantly fed pork mince than to jittter around in between bites.

[belrose]

This is difficult, there is nothing to stop you taking an active part in her life without owning her. In other words you have a dog, all the fun of exercise and training without having to pay or the food, vets etc. Wink

We already do take a pretty active role in her life ... I think we probably spend as much on food as her owner does. I would really much rather have a dog without her many issues, constant bad influence from her owner etc. I think vet bills are a small price to pay for an animal that is the way a loved, well trained animal can be.

I have to go out now, I'll be back soon.[/quote]