HELP! Dogsitting - Dog Bit my Neighbour UNPROVOKED

[belrose]

Hi all,

I just got back from taking Gemma for a walk to the dog park and back and wanted to let you all know how it went. I leashed her inside the house then went out ... my partner wanted to tell the neighbour (who was bitten) something unrelated, so we all went over to their front patio. A friend of mine had suggested (I think after watching one of VSs episodes actually) to leash Gemma and take her over and observe her behaviour near Peter and train accordingly, however at the time I didn't feel I could ask such a thing of pete. I broached the subject this afternoon while we were both gardening out the front and he was quite amenable, so ... we took the dog over while my partner relayed his message. There was no aggression from Gemma this time at all. In fact, she seemed quite fearful and spent the first minute or so behind my partner's legs as he was standing facing the neighbour and I was holding gemma on the leash a step or two back. After a minute or so, she started walking around sniffing things, but didn't appear to want to go near Pete again. Pete remember he had had his shoes off at the time and slipped them off again to see if that made any difference, but it didn't. He stood facing away from her as he had been when the attack occurred but she still didn't display any interest in him whatsoever. The main difference was that she was on a leash (can't change that). Anyway after a couple of minutes, we continued on our way to the park. The walk was uneventful in the extreme ... we walked, she sniffed. We got to the main road. I said "SIT" she sat. We both patted her and told her good girl in high voices for a 10 seconds or so ... it doesn't sound like long, but it is a fair while. Anyway ... then the traffic was clear (no cars visible at all ... it's not that much of a main road! we live in a quiet suburb) so I said (high soft voice, "OK let's go", then as we moved off "HEAL" and "good girl, there's a good girl" as healing on and off the leash was something we taught her fairly easily the first week her owner was away. She still did it perfectly, although she was on a leash. We praised her more when we got to the other side of the road. This is all fairly normal, except that we had her on the leash the whole way instead of just crossing the road. We have heaped praise (when appropriate) and reassurance on her for the last year. So, the rest of the walk to the park was uneventful and when we got there the whole off leash area (fenced) was empty nobody in it at all, so I let her off the leash and we walked around and did a few laps, did the closest thing to a game we've found which is we stand 50m apart or so and take turns calling her to come (excitedly) and then pat, belly rub and ear scratch and verbally praise her for first, coming, then just generally reassuring her she's a good dog. I know it doesn't sound like much fun, but she LOVES it... she races from one of us to the other at GREAT speed, crashes into her target with her body then looks up grinning (for real this time) waiting for the praise and pats. It's lovely.

OK, so then back on the leash, walked home, no dramas, let her off, put her outside, few pats, good girls, etc, put her dinner in her bowl and I went back inside. She will never eat if people are too close ... I think she may have been punished for something to do with food in the past, she's very fearful. I often put the leftovers from the cat's food in a bowl out by the backsteps for her but she won't come anywhere near it, despite my reassurances in a high soft voice that it is ok and it is for her to eat, until I am back inside.

In general, either she does seem more nervous and/or I am more aware of it. Probably a bit of both. Prior to the biting incident, she had calmed down a lot and was for once, becoming a reasonably pleasant dog to have around and I was letting her in the house more. Usually, she's so demanding of affection that it's just not practical to have her in the house while we are both trying to work. I know it's sad, but she's not our dog, we certainly didn't make her behave like this and we have to earn a living, which unfortunately we haven't figured out how to do by patting dogs all day We do spend a half to an hour outside in the backyard with her and the cat every morning eating a cooked breakfast and sharing the scraps and occasionally bones or meat specifically for the animals, so they feel included in this "ritual".

[belrose]

Wow Emmabeth, you sure do have a wealth of knowledge about dog training. Is it what you do for a living? Or have you just had lots of experience?

I will try and find some sort of food that she likes well enough to work for and do as you suggest. The problem is she doesn't seem to like dry food. She won't eat it when we put it in her food bowl. Even sometimes mixed in with her wet food, she's not that keen. Her owner has left 2 different kinds of kibble ... the one in the bag is a reasonably popular brand the same as her wet food. It's called Pal ... don't know if you have that brand in America? I don't know what brand the other kibble is, but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference which you feed her ... she's just not interested. If she was more interested in food or toys ... the suggestions you made sound great. Unfortunately tonight, when we set out on the walk, I forgot to take some kibble with me, but I doubt she'd eat it out of my hand anyway, or with me so close. (leash distance away. too scary).

I know she's bored out of her tiny head and that's why we have made the effort to exercise her whenever we have time. I suspect she probably does have a flea allergy or dermatitis or something and it's probably 10% that and 90% boredom/OCD.

Oh yes, there's been no repeat of the growling. In fact, I think she spent most of the day round the shady side of the house ... it's a small area and quite "secure".

I'm sure the itching/biting herself thing does make her incredibly uncomfortable... she's chewed her hocks (okay I know she's not a horse, but I don't know what else to call them) until they were bleeding .. not just raw but actively bleeding, before. And it has been exceptionally hot here recently ...we've all been uncomfortable. I just haven't mauled anyone's calf recently It looks like the wound will hopefully heal OK, by the way ... it hasn't shown any signs of infection yet and I think with regular dressing and antibacterials it will in time heal. Oops ... I just realised the command HEEL doesn't have an A. Oh well. Proper spelling isn't that important on this inter-web-net thingy is it?

I will take on board everything you've all said and implement what I can. Any further advice is greatly appreciated.

I would still like to know what people think would have been a better response to a dog that had just bitten someone and cause a serious wound and was coming back around for a second bite at the cherry (so it seemed to me). I really don't know (for Pete's safety) what else I could have done, but order Gemma in a serious tone to leave and follow her to make sure she did. You've all said what I did was cruel ... but what other reasonable option was there? Hopefully it won't happen again ... but if it did, and there was a better way to respond ... I'd really like to know, so I don't have to act off the cuff, especially if it was detrimental.

Thanks all ... you all deserve a medal for reading through all of this, let alone replying. I wish I could express how much I really appreciate it all ... but this interwebnet isn't very touchy feely so you'll have to imagine my very sincere gratitude and appreciation for all your wisdom and the time and effort you've spent trying to educate me on this.

I'll give you updates as they happen... Or you can tell me to scoot and stop being so damned verbose!

In any case, thanks so much and all the best to you all.

[belrose]

Sorry, I've done it again... posted 4 times this time ... only this time I did actually follow your instructions and copy, check forum in another window etc. There must have been a delay. Can you please fix my mess again

I've just posted again and gotten an error, and it looks like it's not there, but I'll wait a bit...

[emmabeth]

Ok great progress.

I doooooont think id have tested her quite so scarily but I can see why you did.

Anyway moving on - toys - not all dogs like toys and not all dogs like all dog toys. For dogs who do other things toys are not necessary as Nettle will tell you, her dogs dont 'play'.... but, they do work which is their games.

Gemma is a bright dog... and has no 'job' so finding the toys that she does like is fairly important. Toys you can fill up with food, toys that recreate small furry dead things (even made from real fur, i have some rabbit fur toys here for recall and retrieve games) - these are the toys that may interest her. She also needs appropriate things to do when outside, otherwise she will (if she doesn already) spend time looking for things to chase through the fence or things to defend her area from, which is not what you want.

It may take her a while to find these things fun, and you may need to demonstrate playing with a soft furry dog toy (id let her discover about food filled toys on her own as shes fearful of eating around people).

Although shes obviously working for verbal praise, I would get her workig for treats as well - one of the best ones for dogs funny about food is cheesespread in a tube - all she has to do is lick it and shes rewarded with a nice taste (stressed out dogs will often take food but drop it and not chew it).

When her owner returns I would encourage him to get her a crate and teach her that it is a nice refuge away from the world.

She should easily learn not to pester for attention if you wanted her to - if shes always been yelled at or even just sternly told to go away the problem that occurs is shes been rewarded, with attention, EVEN THOUGH it wasnt the attention she really wanted...... its still attention.

Ive got four dogs here and work from home - they dont pester for attention when im either in my work area, or when im sat at my computer.

Ive never told them off for it, but what i have done is consistently ignored them when im in either place, and so now going to my workbench or sitting in front of my computer is a visual cue for 'chillax time, no point bothering her'...


As for alternatives to what to do when the dog bites someone - my answer is that in that frame of mind the dog is going to learn nothing useful or positive. And in the state of mind of 'oh **** the dog just bit someone' IM not i a position to teach anything useful or positive.

So the dog would be removed with the minimum of fuss to a secure quiet location - i would go and do whatever necessary to appease bitten person and then have a cup of tea (oh im very english, heehee) and see if i can figure out what happened and how to stop it happening again.

When it all boils down, whats important is that it doesnt happen again, followed by is the dog in pain or fear or what.... followed by solving that.

So the first part is done, shes on a lead now - if shes happy to let you fuss and smooth her maybe you could check for a sting or bite of some kind.... and then move on to solving the root cause which is her fear and anxiety.

She doesnt need to know she did wrong, or be punished in anyway - thats a human concept and she simply cannot learn anything constructive from it.

Maybe im an old hippy but im not giong to waste my energy getting riled about something or trying to force my ideals onto a being who cant understand something. So my dog makes a mistake we learn and we move on and hopefully if we learned correctly it doesnt happen again. If i have got to get aggressive to attempt to teach someone that its wrong to be aggressive...

Well thats just stupid! Thats like teaching your kids not to f**** swear.... its bad for everyone, stay calm, chill out and dont hold a grudge because tomorrow comes along and something else happens.

Even if getting mad with a dog worked... i wouldnt want to do it because its bad for me, it makes me a person who reacts rather than thinks things through.

Anyway here endeth the hippy sermon

[Nettle]

Belrose, you have several times mentioned that you think we have accused you of being "cruel" or "abusive". We have not used those words to you. It is so good that you have come here with honest open information and asked for help.

What I for one am trying to get across is that the dog thinks she is being threatened, that there is a huge misunderstanding between her and the people with whom she interacts, and her perception of her world is the one we have to go with.

We are also trying to help by explaining that the methods her owner chooses to use with her, and some of the actions you have taken do not work and why they don't.

I believe you understand a lot more now, and please do not think you have been labelled a dog abuser when you are doing your best to help this animal and also prevent a repeat of the biting. As she is not even your dog, and any good work stands to be undone by her owner unless you can train him to look at his dog in a different way entirely (fat chance?) it is good that you give her a little fun and exercise when you can, because of course she does not know that he is coming back and it will all start again.

So many people think that dogs' minds work the way ours do, and that they automatically understand what is going on in our heads, but the reality is different. That's what makes dog behaviour so fascinating to study.

[Horace's Mum]

Hi Belrose, this is the first time i have replied to you but i have been following this post with interest. Firstly I wanted to congratulate you on your honesty and generosity in trying to help this little dog, and for taking all the advice so far on board, and trying to learn and see situations from a totally different point of view. There are not many people who can do that, it is not easy, and it should be recognised.

One point that I don't think has been brought up i that the dog might be more stressed than usual simply because its owner is not there. Even though her owner is maybe not the best, she has known him for 6 years or so and could be quite concerned that he has gone, even though she is still with you. I'm not sure how long she has been living with you, but if it is still a case of months then she doesn't know you as well as you might assume she would, and given that she is a nervy little dog anyway she could be quite stressed by all the changes.

The main thing I wanted to say is that it is entirely possible to turn a people-aggressive dog around, and she is hardly that after just one bite. I rescued a dog who turned out to have severe behaviour problems, mainly exhibited in aggression towards people, and this wasn't just a nip - he would charge across the room at you. He had been abused, not in that he had been beaten senseless (well not since he was 5 weeks anyway) but he had been severely mishandled by hitting, using spray collars, grabbing his collar etc. He is also deaf, and this was simply not handled well at all.

When I got him, any and every situation was stressful to him, he would react to the stupidest things, even just someone walking across the room or holding a cup of tea. I couldn't go anywhere near him if he had food, and I couldn't enter the kitchen if he was there first, especially if he thought there was something of value there. When he ran at me, if I shouted (bear in mind he is deaf, so he was going purely on the body language of me shouting) he just kept coming and coming and coming. Because I learnt that his aggression was related to fear, I couldn't react with aggression, I had to ignore him, let him stop himself, and then find something to reward him for. The last thing you want to do is reward a dog who has just taken a chunk out of you,, or almost taken your nose off, but I either had to walk away and be mad out of sight until I could control myself, or just be neutral until he settled, and then find anything at all that I could reward him for. Usually I waited till the mad look had gone, asked him to sit, and made the biggest fuss of that sit you can imagine.

I have HAD to train him 110% positively because he simply couldn't cope with anything else, and my face is too valuable to me to risk losing it. I am now, after a year, able to "tell him off" but it is very rare, and it is more a case of "I'd rather you didn't do that (with a shake of the head and frown), how about you come over here and shake my hand (invite him over to me/distract him in any way I could and redirect him to something good)". He has never been hit, even as light as a feather, he doesn't get shouted at, the worst thing I can do is leave the room and not take him with me. That, to him, is absoutely terrible.

When we are out, I do watch him all the time, it has beome second nature to me to be aware of his body language and what he is looking at, as well as being aware of our environment. It is hard work, but it means that I can remove him from a "bad" situation, or redirect his attention by asking him to work or rewarding him for somply looking at me, depending on how stressed he is. He gets a lot of treats, and many people think I just feed him indiscriminately, but he is being rewarded for being calm, for looking at me, for staying by my side. He no longer chases livestock because he know that when he sees a sheep he gets a treat if he looks at me - much more rewarding than chasing sheep and straining against the lead. Same with others dogs and people, he is not that interested in people now, because he knows that I will do something exciting when they are around, and that is much better than meeting people. (Yes, I would love a dog who is all over people, but there is less risk of someone else confusing him by not knowing his signs and inviting trouble, so it is better for him not to care about strangers unless I invite him to meet them and they greet him in "his" language). All of this has been done by twiting EVERY SINGLE situation we come across to find the positive o I can reward him, rather than see the negative and have to punish him. If he does do something "bad" then I instantly redirect him and ask him to down/sit/spin/heel - anything that allows me to reward him.

It takes a long time, and I know that this isn't your dog, but it IS possible to do this without any shouting, hitting, smacking, however gentle, and it is much much more effective. I now have a dog who comes to me when he is unsure, asks me for help because he knows I will listen and keep him safe. We are not 100% yet, but I have 3 years of mistreatment to catch up on, and I have had to think outside the box due to his deafness too.

I am not telling you this because I think you should or shouldn't help this little dog, that is up to you, but I really want you to understand that there is absolutely no need for any aggression in our dealings with dogs. Be brave, try upping that 95% positive to 100% and see what happens - look through the eyes of a scared, insecure little dog and open you mind to a different world. It really is worth it, because once you have done it and seen how well it works you will never look at training a dog in the same way.

Oh, by the way, one of the things that really set my dog off, and still can, is people wheeling wheelbarrows - it does really strange things to your body language. It could just be that she didn't understand what he was doing, and it made him look like a big and scary monster. Dogs don't always distinguish between us and objects we are carrying, and it changes the way you move considerably - I have learnt this the painful way by carrying too many things past my dog without realising he was scared or anxious.

Good luck, and stick with us, this forum got me through some very sticky times.

[belrose]

Horace's Mum,

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your kind, informative and non-hostile reply. Whilst I know everyone else is also just trying to help, it had been difficult to read their posts when they are saying things such as there is no excuse and there's no two ways about it - you've abused the poor little dog. It was very hard for me to keep reading through everything (several times) to get to the valuable information, through the emotion. I've always thought that positive and negative reinforcement are two sides of the same coin, when training a dog or child. They need to know when you are pleased with them, they have done something "desirable" and that is great fun to administer, but I also believe that unless they are made aware of when they have done something wrong or undesirable (which is not so pleasant a task) then they are flying half blind ... they only have a fence on one side of the path they are walking on. And to date my methods have worked brilliantly, but not, I will admit on a dog who has suffered 6 odd years of ... gosh I don't even know what to call it. Apathy and lack of care really. Not in the basic food, shelter, water type of care, but there is so much more than that that a dog needs.

Gemma has lived with us for just over a year now. I have considered the fact that she may be missing her owner or anxious that he's abandoned her and that the weather has been disgustingly hot and everyone's been a bit on the grumpy side because of it, that we are in the middle of flea season and Frontline is not 100% effective these days. They all may be contributing factors, I've just never known a dog (who lived) who has bitten a person to the extent that it caused a wound like that. Sure I've rough-housed with german shepherds and other big dogs, playing and copped the odd tooth scrape down a hand, arm or leg etc which sometimes has sort of broken the skin (a very decent sized scratch for instance) but that's completely different. Even then the dog generally gets an Uh-uh and a stern look, looks remorseful for a few seconds, then gets a pat and we continue on with the game. Perhaps I am making more of this than I need to because I mainly have experience with big dogs and you just can't have a big dog that bites, it's not safe. I don't know.

Your story is really quite amazing and I am impressed no end that you've trained him using the methods you have ... so many people would have just given up on him. I don't really know anything about this method of training, although it comprises a large percentage of how I've done it in the past.

I can see after reading all your thoughts on this and observing Gemma more closely and in a different light how terrified she really is. Obviously I knew she was a frightened skittish dog, but I'm seeing a lot more into her behaviour now ... she loves being patted and comes up to you (Constantly) for it, but she's always jittering about and moving her head around and pattering on her feet constantly until you've been patting her for about 30-45 minutes, then she starts to settle. I can see now that this is a constant fear of being struck. In Gemma's case perhaps your method is appropriate... maybe she's just too traumatised by what's happened to her in the past to cope with any remonstrance.

[belrose]

Horace's Mum again, that is very interesting what you said about wheelbarrows ... immediately after the incident, Pete said she was probably trying to protect me but I couldn't really see any threat. Pete was coming towards me with a vicious scary threatening wheelbarrow, though he had stopped by the time he was bitten. I might try and reenact what happened with my partner (wearing jeans). We need to use the wheelbarrow anyway!

I would feel much better about the situation if I could understand more about what triggered it. I guess I'd also feel pretty bad about rousing on her so severely if she had been trying to protect me (even from such a terrible threat as the wheelbarrow I wanted to borrow ) but I really didn't know how else to handle the situation.

I guess I still need a lot of advice in relation to turning a "bad" situation into an opportunity to reward her. She frequently goes up to the back fence to "start somethign" with the dog over the back (in my view, while she's nice and safe behind a 6 foot fence!) and growls and barks in the most vicious manner. We tell her "no" when we are home and see this behaviour and persist and become more forceful until she walks away. How else can we deal with this for instance? I wouldn't feel comfortable about luring her away with treats, because to my mind it would seem like rewarding her for barking at that dog and that's the last thing I want to do.

Another thing she still does is ferret around in the compost. Then a simple "no" pointing to the door and saying "outside" and she's back outside before I've finished commanding.

I have a strong feeling she's been punished (by her owner, too severely) for something to do with food before... he's quite proud that she will never beg for food or go in the kitchen (I've not enlightened him that she does actually do this sometimes when he's not around, and she did beg us for food at breakfast each mornign) and I suspect this is because he's caught her doing something food related and ... well dealt with it inappropriately. Let's not think about the details.

Oh, an update. This morning (not breakfast, I just went outside to pat the cat who was lying in the sun and give her some food, staying with her til she'd eaten it so the dog wouldn't hoover it up for her). I called Gemma over to my other side and gently and very slowly patted her, stopping and putting my hand back on my lap whenever she skittered or got nervy. Whenever I did that Gemma would creep closer and nudge my hand with her nose which we all think is a hint that we should be patting her not doing whatever worthless think we might have been doing prior. When the cat lost interest in her dry bits and jellied fish, I started hand feeding it to gemma, and surprisingly she took it out of my hand which she actually has very rarely done in the past, and only if it is something she really badly wants like bits of steak. Late last night I did the same thing with some dinner scraps ... just veges and rice in soy sauce .. I don't think there was any chicken left in it, she took everything from my hand, gently, one piece at a time and ate it all. Then I tipped the rice out and she ate that from the ground outside. This is actually MORE trust than we've ever had from her, which seems in contradiction to the recent events, and her definitely increased level of skittishness since we told her off for it.

[Nettle]

You're doing fine. Let's up the ante. You'll have to get used to me being brusque: I am short and to the point and it saves my typing fingers! It is not accusatory but informative. Hence my username

Stroke don't pat. Don't touch heads unless heads are offered into your hand. Dogs have to learn to tolerate and even enjoy patting: to start with, it is hostile to them.

Heads are very personal and vulnerable, and should not be touched until offered (if I went up to you and touched your head, you'd be annoyed). She offered her head to your hand, that's great: next time, stroke don't pat.

What dogs do to/with other dogs is outside their reactions to humans. What conversation your dog extends to the dogs outside is not anything to do with her fear attitude to people.


Please don't do anything with wheelbarrows right now. You are right at the beginning with this dog, and the wheelbarrow desensitising is right at the other end. Concentrate on developing her impression of you as not so dangerous after all.

Keep her away from your compost or anything else she finds fascinating and you want her away from by a physical barrier rather than telling her off/ordering her out. At this stage it is too much to expect her to ignore something so delightfully scented, and as I hope you are beginning to realise, scolding doesn't mean anything to her.

Your relationship with previous dogs is not relevant to what is happening with this dog now.


Congratulations on your very good progress so far.

[belrose]

Hi Nettle,

What you detail in hitting and yelling at her until she pees herself in fear is I am afraid, abuse. Theres no two ways about that.

(hey you expect her not to be aggressive but you can beat the pee out of a dog whose what, a tenth of your size?)

I cannot apologise for comeing across harsh regarding what you did to this dog, because it was cruel and pointless

Ok I guess it was all emmabeth, I thought there were multiple people saying these things, but emmabeth did take an awful lot of time to reply. Hmm that sounds bad ... I mean she gave a lot of her time replying to me. She replied lightning quick actually!

Anyway, I was the one who asked for help from all of you and I am prepared to take it in whatever form it comes. It's just a lot easier to accept the advice when I don't have to sort through the emotions I feel when I read that sort of thing. I have actually come to accept a lot of what has been said, with time to digest it and observe gemma etc. In fact at least in this particular instance, with this particular dog, I am coming to the conclusion that any form of negative communication with the dog will just not help. It just took me a while to think about it and accept it, as I've always used both kinds of reinforcement to train animals and it's worked really well for me.

Remember ... negative reinforcement is completely ineffective with dogs you say so why would it work on me? I actually think some animals are pretty darn clever and I don't know that I'm THAT much more intelligent. As someone says in their signature. Who cleans up after whom? And who lives rent free, with their food prepared for them and cleaned up after?

[Horace's Mum]

Not much to add to Nettle's reply, but it took a LONG time before anyone could stroke the top of Horus' head, and even now I ask people not to. I always stroke him under his chin and neck. I do the same as you when I am not sure if he wants me there (having learnt this by being severly told off for giving unwanted attention!) - I offer my hand in a relaxed fashion, just let it dangle, and if he pushes up in it then he gets a few strokes and then I stop and just dangle again. If he still wants me then he pushes again and gets more attention, but sometimes he doesn;t and that is my sign to get lost and leave him alone. I always give him the opportunity to change his mind, sometimes he thinks he was attention but then it is too much and actually all he wants is to sit by me. That's fine, but I had to learn to give him the opportunity to tell me, and he has learnt that it is ok to change his mind. Now he walks away or turns his back if he has had enough, because he has learned that I will accept that as an answer.

As far as the other dogs go, I have had this problem too. Try not saying no, make an exciting nosie and run off in the other direction or try a squeaky toy to break the cycle, then THE INSTANT she stops barking to look at you she gets something yummy. You have to be quick, you are rewarding the look at you, NOT the barking. To begin with she will go straight back to barking, but you make that noise again and reward the second she stops - if you are not close enough to to it by hand, gently throw the treat right next to her. Think of a word that has no negative connotations for you, makes it easier to use it in the correct tone - my friend uses "no noisy", you could try something silly like "oopsy!", or many people say "thank you" because you are thanking them for letting you know there is a dog there. You will find that she gradually starts to recognise the word and you can then start calling her away for her treat, but initially you just want to break the cycle of barking. Eventually, you should be able to say "thank you" or whatever, and she then knows that you have heard her warning, and you are now in charge so she doesn't have to worry, so she can come back to the house and relax. It will take time, but you can practice this one lots and lots!! Remember to reward the slightest hesitation in barking ot the tiniest glance in your direction with lots of verbal praise and the treat as fast as you can to begin with. Clicker training is great for this, but probably not suitable right now.

Do you see how to start turning it around? If you can't find something she has done that is good, then you create the opportunity for her to do something good - in this case it is just to glance at you or close her mouth for a second or two.

Agree with Nettle, don't try and re-enact anything - you will either cause her a lot of stress or it will be totally useless because you don't really know exactly what it was that scared her.

The other big thing is never forget that she is scared, and that is why she is behaving like this - it doesn't make the bites any less painful, but it does help you to keep your head and think rationally!!

Any other situations you need help to see, let me know.

[belrose]

Hi Nettle,

No worries, as I said I need everyone's advice too much to be offended.

Aha! I was thinking of the herb, with respect to your name... I was actually meaning to ask you. But my background is in nursing.naturopathy.nutrition and ... herbalism. But now I work in project management and I can type lightning fast, so I can be verbose not that much would stop me.

OK ... patting ... I do actually stroke her not pat ... I guess I used the wrong term. We just call it pats and petting etc in the house so I'm used to that term. Gemma does offer her head... she actually nuzzles your hand with her nose, quite roughly until she manages to toss it onto her head. It's quite cute and about as strong an indicator as I can imagine that she wants her head patted. I continue on down her back, because I think she needs gentle soothing stimuli.

Oops too late with the wheelbarrow. A friend came over tonight and we did all go out into our backyard and wheel the wheelbarrow around a bit while she was there. She did seem concerned about it, but did not show aggression. I praised her a lot while the boys were moving the wheelbarrow and then tried to feed her a chicken neck when we returned inside, but she wasn't interested. Oh ... I have let her inside again. I'll give an update in a separate post.

[belrose]

Hi All,

An update for those who are interested in what happened today with Gemma. I let her inside yesterday and let her sleep on her owners' bed at night and a bit throughout the day. She was skittish and nervous, following us around for pats, sorry stroking and attention. Same story this morning.

About 4pm I was sitting on the lounge as I'd just managed to find out when this program a friend recommended to me ... It's Me Or The Dog was on and wanted to watch it to see what all the fuss was about and if I could learn something Gemma came up to me and wanted to jump on my lap (which I don't let her do without permission) so I allowed her. She settled almost immediately, within a minute, which is extremely unusual. More like her behaviour the first week after her owner went away, than the year prior and the 2 days after the bite. I stroked her and she fell asleep as I watched an episode with 2 rather gormless students who had bought a beautiful black labrador who shat and peed inside, ate his poop, jumped all over everything, stole sandwiches off the kitchen counter as they were being made and was generally a right pain in the tail. Conveniently, the training side of the episode was largely about clicker training and Ok, I have to admit this looks like a much better method of training dogs and NOW I can understand why you all say what you do. I think I will try and use clicker training on Gemma, it looks a lot easier than the methods I have used.

So, Gemma slept on my lap throughout the whole episode, didn't mind when my partner sat down next to me, disturbing the balance of the couch and making gemma fall slightly off my lap and on to his. She just stayed wedged in between us, I think feeling nice and safe. Little did she know what traumatic evil was about to befall her... my vision is not that great, but while she was on my lap I could see swarms of fleas on her ... well enough anyway. As soon as the episode was over, I picked her up and carried her to the laundry for ... you guessed it a bath. My partner came with to assist and be in charge of the "good girl, it's alright" and other soothing sounds. She was OK throughout this ... interestingly she didn't get afraid until about halfway through me rubbing the flea shampoo in... she started trembling terribly. I expect her owner is not very gentle with her when he rinses her off. She doesn't like water and I expect he just doesn't tolerate any nonsense. Anyway, we got through it with little drama (oh, i tried to reward her with food during the torture, but she wasn't interested). I towelled her off and gave her a long cuddle afterwards and she was again fairly calm and settled, falling asleep.
Our friend came over, I explained the wheelbarrow thing and that we'd been going to experiment with it, but it started raining. He said the rain wasn't too bad and he was willing to be the guinea pig, which I thought would be more appropriate as gemma knows the friend, but not very well, similar to Pete. Gemma did appear very nervous around the w/b, running around it and making sure it kept it's distance, but no barking etc or other signs of aggression. I got Michael (the friend) to approach me with the wheelbarrow, up the side of the house where it is fairly confined, then tip the mulch out on the garden bed. Gemma kept a close eye on it all but no growling/biting. I thought I had seen enough, that she appeared much more agitated and nervous with the w/b (even though this w/b lived in our backyard for the better part of the time she has lived here due to a project), so I called it all off and we went back inside. She was panting, I think more than was warranted for the small amount of exercise she had ... so I expect this was stress. I gave her lots of attention, stroking, cat bits - they taste MUCH better than dog bits, especially if she sees they come from the cat bowl She spent the evening going from person to person for attention, cuddles, pats while we talked then watched a movie. She is currently settled on the mat in the loungeroom and seems like she is back to the dog she was before the biting incident, despite the stress of a bath and w/b experiments. Ooh.. no walk this evening, cos it rained. But lots of attention.

[belrose]

Hi Everyone,

I have decided as I have mentioned to get Gemma and her Owner to a vet as a first step.>> Where we will go from there I don't know.

I am making a list of things I want discussed/dealt with there and thought that I would ask for your input, as obviously her owner's participation and change of attitude is the most crucial aspect of this whole situation. He will be back the day after tomorrow by the way. I'm not really looking forward to the conversations we will need to have.

Ok, so, this list then:

* Resolve the compulsive chewing of herself. Fleas? Dermatitis? Allergy?
* Her owner uses Johnson's Baby Shampoo instead of a dog wash and I am concerned that the pH may not be correct for her skin and may be causing irritation.
* Discuss her nervous disposition and extreme fearfulness, the history, causes. What can be done to improve this (medication for dog in interim, behaviour changes necessary in owner) I hope that this information from an authority figure will have more weight. It's not had much impact from us, other than a few small wins, such as flea treatment and better food.
* Discuss appropriate/inappropriate training methods.
* Discuss the need to notify Council of "Dangerous Dog" for registration. I am reticent to do this and think that if this is necessary I will likely ask him to move out. I don't want all the hassle that this entails and am not certain it would really be of benefit.
*Discuss the need for a daily walk/exercise.

My mother (yes, I have asked pretty much everyone in the known universe for advice on this ) thinks that not walking such an active dog daily might constitute abuse, given her behavioural problems (presumably changes). I will contact the RSPCA tomorrow (first day after public holiday) and get advice.

So, given my chosen initial course of action (go to vet (auth. figure) frank discussion, advice. What other subjects do you think we should bring up? My partner is largely in favour of just asking the owner to move out, thus removing the problem, however I don't think that this will solve anything other than santising the issue for us so we don't have to watch it everyday (which is quite distressing for both of us, sensitive souls that we are).

[Mattie]

I haven't read through all the posts yet and have been off line during the weekend.

She tried to run away from us, as we approached before we said anything and acted very fearful. We pursued her and cornered her after a couple of laps, approaching from different directions. We firmly told her she was a bad dog and she was never to bite anyone ever and smacked her on her haunches a couple of times. Enough for her to know we meant business, but certainly not hard enough to cause any physical damage. She peed herself a couple of times. The entire castigating episode lasted ... oh well under a minute, maybe only 30 seconds. We tied her up to the clothesline with her leash (it was late afternoon, early evening) as she's a bit of a Houdini when it comes to getting out without you noticing and I couldn't risk her getting out after THAT! I went next door and dressed the wound on our neighbour's leg, and chatted with him and his wife for a couple of hours (doing a lot of apologising as well) and much later that night realised that I couldn't leave the dog tied up overnight as it was going to be very hot the next day, so I let her off the leash about midnight when we went to bed. She was very agitated (excited to see me, happy, jumping up on my leg, though I told her firmly to sit (she did after a few "sit"s ) and she ran around like a mad thing for a few minutes.

Put yourself in the dog's position, the biting took place some time before, even 5 minutes is a long time before for a dog and she will have forgotten what happened. You and your husband corner her then proceed to smack her, no wonder she peed herself, I would have as well. You then tie her up and leave her for a very long time. This is about you not her, this is to make you feel better because you have punished her but she doesn't know what for.

This morning when I went outside, as I opened the back door, she was there and started growling at me! (She's lived in this house for a year now and never done that). She seemed quite serious so I growled back at her and started advancing and pointing towards the corner of the backyard. She growled at me again and I said sharply "don't you growl at me" and "OUTSIDE" pointing away from the house.

If I was the dog I would have more than growled at you, you attacked the dog for nothing the day before then tied her up for a very long time, not wonder she growled at you, she is terrified of you. Is this what you really want a dog to be like?

All this may seem harsh, but by being gentle you would think this is the right way to behave and it isn't. You now need to start building up trust with this dog and that won't be easy to do now.

Try starting again with her and clicker train her, this will build her confidence up and help her learn that you are not really a horrible person.

I can understand your feelings, several of my dogs were biters when I first got them, but dogs bite out of fear mainly. The reason she bit your neighbour will never be known now, but in future don't let her have the chance to bite people by keeping her in your own place.

I do hope you can turn this round, and we are all here to help as much as we can.