Dog Conformation

[emmabeth]

I have to admit my handling skills are very much unpracticed and Dog C just is a very good girl, Dog A has a slightly hurty leg (her back legs are stepped under her a little more than is normal and she was v tense), and Dog B again stepped under herself and wasn't really playing ball (she wanted to leap around and clobber me in the head and play games not fart about!)

Of the three Deerhounds, I like dog C's top line and her hind legs are much nicer than they appear in the photo, but possibly a leetle smidgen toooooo far out (camped out behind as the horse world has it) - Dog B's back is not nearly so good (though the better stack makes it look a lot better than it is) but her hind leg I think is fab.

I will try to take some headshots because Dog C's head is really very different, much more classic sighthound, punishing jaws, not much stop, refined and streamlined. Dogs A and B are, unsurprisingly, much more closely related and have a more well defined stop and not the same over all refinedness with real strength to them (but cuter, amusingly, I spent most of tonight calling dog C wormface and womblehead!).

Dog C also has a verrrrrrrrrry slightly roman nose, only very very slightly though.

My only real criticism of dog C is that I think for the breed, she is too tall - but then she is in proportion and so if you disregard the breed issue, for her own health and ability to move correctly this isn't detrimental at all.

If you compare all three of these deerhounds to the working one in Nettles picture collection, you will see there are really very few differences - I can't tell from the photo but I would expect that she (i cant tell but im going with she) is probably smaller but otherwise, in the show ring she would do well (and I like her pasterns actually, all 'my' three are rather upright which from a movement point of view I don't like).


Looking at my crossbreeds and again, excusing the bad handling, I think I am quite blessed really that all three have pretty good conformation, although there is obviously no breed standard to compare them against, from a soundness point of view they are quite good and they are 9, 11 and 12, and still fit and sound.

People frequently forget or are ignorant, of the risks when breeding crossbreeds, particularly those of multiple crosses, that genetics does not work like mixing paint...

Rocky is a really lucky example I think - his heritage as I understand it is a lurcher mother (yes really, I met her!), adn a german shepherd father (and I met him and no, mrs lurcher had not be mated with anyone else). In Mums ancestry though there were wirey terriers, some bullbreed influence (I think NOT staffie, I think pit personally as I know his mother came from Ireland, and HER mother was bred by someone known for using a very light but strong pit stud dog over some lurcher bitches).

There was a good chance he COULD have come out looking like a total nightmare, as I often say 'a dog put together by a committee!") his one real fault is his teeth, he has got HUGE teeth (and he would have inherited them from both parents and some grandparents too as theres lots of breeds in the mix that tend to have rather large teeth) and they don't fit in his jaw properly, the large incisors at the back are jumbled up with some on funny angles which has caused him problems.

Behaviourally, hes a pretty good mix of terrier temperament and sighthoundy behaviour - I have been lucky enough to watch this boy course a hare and it was impressive, for any dog, not just a short stocky terrier though that was a VERY long time ago.

I have also (not luckily!) watched him with sheep (aand there was a lot more screaming and running and swearing than watching) but asides from the awfulness of seeing your dog worry stock, ... he KNEW exactly what he was doign, he was not chasing willynilly.. he carefully identified the sheep he was goign to get and split her out of the flock and moved her to where he could get her, and at that poitn fortunately we stopped him - I won't ever forget how good he was at that and so he is NEVER off lead near sheep, but it demonstrates a very good herding ability... sadly he would go in for the kill, his herding instinct is over ridden by his kill it instinct!

GWD thats a lovely saluki - I always thought Ellies head was a bit chunky/blocky for saluki but it actually isn't look at that guy - I reckon Ellie probably looks a lot more like the original Afghans did, before we made them into a show dog/mobile hairdo.

Ellie I think is a good example of how crossing two quite similar types is likely to produce an equally attractive pup - but this isn't always the case because there are dogs out there people assume are similar.. that really arent.

One example (its one of my favourites) is the Irish Wolfhound, which people assume is similar to a Deerhound and I guess on the outside, it is, particularly in photographs.

But if you cross a Deerhound with a Greyhound - you get a pretty even blend between the two, a slightly larger greyhound with a broken/rough coat in varying degrees (generally not a long coat but not a totally smooth one).

If you cross a Greyhound with a Wolfhound though..... you tend to get some huge badly proportioned beast that is reallllllllly uncomfortably long in the back and has horribly angled hind legs (really really straight) and the back tends ot have little to no arch over the loins, often the head is too heavy for the neck and front as well.

This is because the Wolfhound is only a relatively recent crossbreed itself (Predominantly deerhound and great dane but other breeds were used) and has a LOT more mastiff ancestry than people realise and mastiffs and sighthounds are much further apart in build!

(Of course there are a lot of very nice supposed wolfie x's out there - I would put my HOUSE on it that 99% of those are Deerhound x!)

[gwd]

i thought this pictorial essay would be of interest to people interested in traits passed by a dominate b*tch line.

the first picture is the finest b*tch i ever had the privilege to show. she was bred and owned by my MIL......but she was MY girl. she never put a foot wrong in or out of the ring, showed like a demon in freezing rain or 110 degree phoenix summers. she also was a star in the litter box and produced 20 champion progeny. she had lovely angle front and rear. i'm loath to say she had ANY faults but honesty requires me to say she was too long in loin and could have used a bit more leg. of course in my eyes she was perfect.

this is my maggie girl, RIP



this is a picture of her and her daughter jackie. at the time jackie was almost 9 months old. you can see that jackie doesn't have quite the rear angle that her mother had but she was a lovely b*tch with a good front.....she was also a true, beautiful mover



this picture is katie. she is also a maggie daughter different sire than jackie. i included her because i think you get a sense of maggie stamping her body and type on her babies. she had a lovely front and side movement that was beautiful enough to being a tear to your eye



this last picture is the 3rd in the generational essay! she is a maggie granddaughter and jackies baby. she was the last litter i bred. i'm quite proud of her as she was a multi best in show winning b*tch. it's not a great picture as it's a picture of a photocopy however, i think it's clear enough that you can see that type was being passed along. she didn't have the best front angle but she was a lovely girl

[gwd]

Dog C also has a verrrrrrrrrry slightly roman nose, only very very slightly though.

from a breeding standpoint, and when i judge i remember the old adage of, 'a dog doesn't run on his head' i figure there is no perfect dog and unless it's a 'head' breed, i'm going to place body, substance and most of all movement over the perfect head. there are other people that feel differently about the importance of a gorgeous headpiece.

[Nettle]

With the deerhounds, the modern trend for big heads is a bad one because IF the dog were working, a big head unbalances. A deerhound reaches up to its prey, not down, so needs a long strong head in order not to unbalance the hindquarters in the strike. Dropping a deer is a matter of skill and balance, rather like in martial arts, but people who have never seen/done it think a deer (or other big quarry - these guys can drop kangaroos too) is 'pulled' down. Big deerhounds with big heads couldn't gallop up and down the glens. There was a time when the bitches measured in at 26"-29" which is a very handy size, but such an animal would be laughed out of the ring now.


There is a suspicion that a certain other breed was sneaked into the gene pool to give a more profuse coat, and it brought a Roman nose with it...... and also changed the topline of some hounds.

The deerhound in the photo is actually a male and didn't score in the show ring because he was 'too small' at a workmanlike 30". He isn't seen at his best here as he was an old chap when I got the photo, but his children are doing their job. No show people were ever interested in using him.

Now I come clean and admit that 3,4,6 and the fawn dog in pic 7 were all out of avatar lady, and the white dog in 6 is her niece.

[JudyN]

Now I come clean and admit that 3,4,6 and the fawn dog in pic 7 were all out of avatar lady, and the white dog in 6 is her niece.

Just in case anyone is confused, that's starting from the lurcher shots following: 'The next pics are examples of hindleg articulation on working lurchers:' But should 'the white dog in 6' be 'the white dog in 5'? She (or possibly he) is lovely, but then I do like a bit of scruffiness.

That deerhound looks great for 11. The ones I see round here are larger and heavier and look rather lumbering when they get older.

I'm going to see if i can get a pic of Jasper in a good showing pose later (wish me luck), if that's OK, because as well as being interested in your verdict, it'll help me understand conformation if I have a 'real' dog to base it on.

[minkee]

I'd like to know a bit more about showing in general - is it okay to sneak that in here too? Admittedly all the terminology has left me baffled so far (off the stiffle??!) but one can learn

How do you get into it? How do you know where to go and what to do? Can ANY dog do it (by which I mean - do they have to be of a certain quality before you even think it)? And if so - how do you know??

Obviously I'm thinking about Breeze. I never would have chosen a pup solely so I COULD show him, I just wonder that if he is a good example of the breed then perhaps it'd be a shame not to? I don't know if he IS a good example, but he gets a lot of complimentary responses on facebook from friends of the breeder - which basically means the entire Ibi clique as far as I know! I don't know enough about the politics of the show world to know how nice they're being vs how honest they're being

Is showing even any fun?! For oneself AND the dog?

I have no idea how to 'stack' but here's a semi side-on picture if that helps! He's only 16 weeks though:

[JudyN]

Is showing even any fun?! For oneself AND the dog?

I've only done lurcher showing, which is rather different to Crufts-type shows, but it was fun - or would have been if it wasn't for the acute embarrassment of Jasper's behaviour in the ring The first time he got a rosette ('only' fourth, and he was 5 months old and only entered for experience so shouldn't really have been in with a shout) I was as excited as a Miss World winner being crowned It is easy to get hung up on 'Why wasn't he placed, what's that dog got that he hasn't?' sort of thing, but that may just be me. We all know we take home the best dog at the end of the day And it's a good way of meeting up with other dog owners.

As for the dogs? Well, at lurcher shows, I guess they spend a lot of time hanging around outside the ring while their owners chat, so being in the ring and walked around isn't so different. Unless you're Jasper, of course...

[Nettle]

That's the white dog in pic 5 of the lurcher bunch but pic 14 if counting from the start.

Showing is subjective - the judge's preference and the dog on the day. It is really only enjoyable if you don't care! I didn't, so it was fine for me - I knew I always had the best dog. If I won it was 5 minutes of if not, well, shrug, there was always another time.


Some folks get very agitated though and can be nasty, some judges judge the wrong end of the lead.


Minkee, you have a rare breed in UK so might well be worth your while to show if you think you will enjoy it. Why not have a chat with Breeze's breeder? It's good advertising for him/her if he does well. If you want to show, he should go to ringcraft classes rather than pet dog obedience classes (or no classes at all). But if you do - just remember, it isn't 'real'

[JudyN]

OK, here's some of Jasper. I had an attempt at stacking him, but every time I moved a back leg back he thought I was going to do something to it so put it even further forward I should have tried gwd's trick of pulling his tail.







Does his rear end look a little rounded and tucked under, or is that just the lack of stacking? (Or possibly a deerhound thing?) Any strong/weak/odd points? He's gained a couple of pounds recently but looking at these pics I don't think he looks as fit as he did, probably due to lack of running chasing balls while his toe's on the mend.

[minkee]

Nettle, do you mean that Ringcraft would be preferable (well, obviously it would but..) or that Pet Obedience would be detrimental? I suppose all this time I've spent getting him to sit in the kitchen while I cook will work against me too

I will have a chat with the breeder and see what she has to say Breeze's mum won Best ***** at Crufts last year (I didn't realise this till we went to pick him up which shows how much attention I pay to this stuff! ) so I'm sure she knows what she's doing. I worry about the methods of the local ringcraft classes, though, if the local obedience classes are anything to go by.

Here's a question for you: How do they choose who judges the breeds? On one hand the best choice would be someone who is seriously into breeding them, but on the other hand that would make them incredibly biased!

[gwd]

Showing is subjective - the judge's preference and the dog on the day. It is really only enjoyable if you don't care! I didn't, so it was fine for me - I knew I always had the best dog.

keeping your perspective is pretty good advice for most situations. ......not just dog shows.

Nettle, do you mean that Ringcraft would be preferable (well, obviously it would but..) or that Pet Obedience would be detrimental? I suppose all this time I've spent getting him to sit in the kitchen while I cook will work against me too

there are show people that swear you've totally wrecked things if you EVER let your dog sit. i'm not one of them. i give my dogs credit for having intelligence to know what ring we're in. there were many shows where i'd compete in conformation and obedience on the same day and many clubs would give price breaks for a second entry for the same dogs.

obviously i don't feel that asking a dog for a sit is bad........but i would make sure i also teach stand. don't let the puppy get too use to sit always being a default. keep them gussing as to what mom is going to ask for to earn the treat! that avoids the puppies that just keep slamming their butt on the ground everytime they see food ....... but you can make things situational and have 'kitchen rules' where sit is the default position in the kitchen.

but yes, if you're considering trying out conformation show your breeder is the place to start.

[emmabeth]

Minkee - thats not a bad photo actually - because he is still growing pretty rapidly he is going to stand in all manner of 'awkward' looking poses, because his centre of gravity and thus ability to balance and hold a position at this age is changing frequently, sometimes probably DAILY - this does tend to be a problem specific to sighthounds as they have such long legs to grow into!

My tips for stacking a dog once you know the outline you are trying to achieve, is to move the leg from as high up as possible, so the shoulder or above the knee, NOT the paw, and with your other hand, take the dog off balance slightly so the paw you are aiming to move is not really weight bearing, then before you go to move the next one, you gently tip them the other way slightly.. then they can't move that paw back again.

Its a good habit to teach them that in any position, the back paws remain GLUED to the ground and Kikopups videos on stay's in the stand/sit/down are great for this - if the back paws are correct then you only need to get the front paws in the right places!

You can also capture with a clicker, the correct stand, if you are good at capturing stuff.

If you have a ringcraft club nearby, I would go there rather than to a puppy class - I actually think that ringcraft and showing at lower levels can be BETTER socialisation than a traditional puppy class, because you will get a better mixture of breeds, ages, sizes at ringcraft and they are learning to do a job around other dogs, whereas a LOT of puppy classes tend to focus more on puppies spending time with other puppies which isn't actually realistic, with the main focus being teaching new owners stuff they didn't already know (and you do know and you have here for that anyway).

If you do think you want to show him, teach him to stand as gwd says, and also teach him that people walking straight up to him and taking hold of his muzzle to lift his lips and see his teeth is th eBEST THING EVER - it is I think the one part of showing that I hate, as some judges can be a bit inconsiderate (you CAN offer to show the judge your dogs teeth yourself and I would strongly advise you do this) and grabby, which can put a dog off for life.

[gwd]

Minkee - thats not a bad photo actually - because he is still growing pretty rapidly he is going to stand in all manner of 'awkward' looking poses, because his centre of gravity and thus ability to balance and hold a position at this age is changing frequently, sometimes probably DAILY - this does tend to be a problem specific to sighthounds as they have such long legs to grow into!

i've found when puppies are awkward it's best to not do much stacking practice as you're asking for something that just isn't comfortable and if they stand out of balance, you're setting muscle memory for the wrong thing. what i will do is get puppies to learn to give me their head and let me hold it at whatever angle i want. if you're battling for control of the head the whole rest of the dog is going to go kittywampus. ....and it sucks to have a dog go heavy on the head. .....which is when they press down and you feel like you're holding up a 20lb weight. ......ideally you're holding the head still with 3 fingers.

My tips for stacking a dog once you know the outline you are trying to achieve, is to move the leg from as high up as possible, so the shoulder or above the knee, NOT the paw,

THIS is key. most newbies seem to want to place the paw rather than move the front leg into position from the elbow. they also seem to have a tendancy to not visualzed correct front foot placement.......the foot should be directly under point where the neck meets the shoulder. it helps to do this in front of a mirror while you're learning so that you can start to reconcile how the stack 'feels' to you vs what outline you're showing the judge.

You can also capture with a clicker, the correct stand, if you are good at capturing stuff.

that is exactly how i would teach my dogs to freestack! you get to handstack the dogs for your individual and while in the lineup, but it's stunning if after you've done your down and back or go around to be able to have your dog land in a freestack!

If you have a ringcraft club nearby, I would go there rather than to a puppy class - I actually think that ringcraft and showing at lower levels can be BETTER socialisation than a traditional puppy class, because you will get a better mixture of breeds, ages, sizes at ringcraft and they are learning to do a job around other dogs, whereas a LOT of puppy classes tend to focus more on puppies spending time with other puppies which isn't actually realistic, with the main focus being teaching new owners stuff they didn't already know (and you do know and you have here for that anyway).

i hate to come off as snooty, but most people in handling classes know how to handle their dog and you don't find your having to watch them AND your puppy to avoid a puppy attack from behind or people letting their babies lunge at other dogs on the leash because they're not engaged with their owner and that other puppy looks like they'd really know how to party!

If you do think you want to show him, teach him to stand as gwd says, and also teach him that people walking straight up to him and taking hold of his muzzle to lift his lips and see his teeth is th eBEST THING EVER - it is I think the one part of showing that I hate, as some judges can be a bit inconsiderate (you CAN offer to show the judge your dogs teeth yourself and I would strongly advise you do this) and grabby, which can put a dog off for life.

more and more i'm finding that judges will ask, 'show me the bite' because it really is more hygienic. by letting the handlers show the bite you're not transferring some nasty virus all up and down the line.

on that same note.......something about judges and big dogs. they seem to think that big dogs are gonna enjoy that hearty slap on the *ss after they've gone over them. some judges are just plain rough. knowing this, you train for it.

this caught me off guard at first because i tend to have gentle hands when i show......i try and make my motions slow and soothing as when you're in that high energy environment, adrenaline can make you fidgety. ..... that hearty slap by a judge can be off-putting. sooooo, armed with a bunch of liver, i'd roughhouse a bit and reward heavily! once they got use to that i'd have friends play judge ..... not that i likely having judges be rough, but at least i'd trained my pups to be bullet proof if it did happen. rough judges also kind of get a reputation, and i'd never, EVAR intentionally enter a 6 month old puppy in their first show weekend under a rough judge, even if the show was local and i didn't have to travel. .....i'd skip

as far as breeze, i'm guessing a chat with his breeder would be a wealth of info. with my pups i knew mostly what they were going to be at 8-10 weeks. after 10 weeks i stopped looking at them until they were at least 6 months old for the girls and 9-10 for the boys as puppy uglies hit!

[Nettle]

JudyN, I've always thought Jasper was a good-looker, and from those photos I can see he has good feet, a super topline and a nice long tail (not just cosmetic but a balancer at speed). I don't know if his feet would stand (lol) a closer view but they look good from those pics. His head is nicely proportioned too.

If I were nitpicking, it would be that his brisket doesn't quite reach to his elbows, which on a male dog is a fault (bitches are allowed a little leeway but in practice I prefer to see a deep brisket on a ***** too) because it means there isn't so much lung room, which of course is important in a sighthound. It's probably due to his neutering. But as faults go, there are plenty worse.

Show greyhounds have the brisket below the elbow, which is a far worse fault in a dog that drops down low when it really runs.

[JudyN]

Thanks Nettle, much appreciated I see what you mean about the depth of chest - in fact I think that's what made me wonder if he was a bit unfit or even porky (by lurcher standards) as there isn't that much contrast between chest and waist.

I tried stacking him by moving his front legs from the top rather than back legs by the paw just now and it worked a lot better. I don't know if I'll ever use it in anger, but it's good for dogs and owners to learn new skills 'just because'.