Gorgeous greyhound adoption video

[Mrs Sowerberry]

It doesn't matter to the DOG in question that his owners are coming back, or its only until he finds a home - the purpose of the kenneling is irrelevant as far as the dog is concerned,

It is the prognosis of the situation that is important. It may not be ideal to kennel a dog for 2 weeks, or 2 months even less so, but if it results in the dog back in his old home, or in a new one, then we, as intelligent beings, can accept that as a trade off beneficial to the dog. If however it goes on for 3 years, that is another matter. And I know some dogs stay in rescues for a very long time but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Your comment about abused children is really one of the problems I have with the anti-racing vs pro-racing issue (and the same sort of emotive discussion comes from both sides really!) - greyhounds DO enjoy racing, sighthounds enjoy chasing and running, its what they do. Its not that they 'appear' to enjoy it - they DO enjoy it - if they didn't they'd be no good and wouldn't race.

abused children enjoy going out with their parents and having stories from them and being given presents by them. They just don't enjoy being abused by them.

Its talk like that that I think devalues the anti-racing argument - its a bit like bringing Hitler into a debate, immediately renders your point null and void!

Sorry, but I cant see that and it strikes me as irrationally dismissive.

But when a greyhound retires, is he guaranteed to be able to run free in completely safe surroundings, unfettered by leash or muzzle, is he at liberty to hunt small furry things and behave naturally - no, he isn't. He is denied every bit as much as he is in a racing kennel - sure, he gets a sofa maybe and cuddles, but I think if most dogs could list their priorities, these things would come WAY down the list after hunting and running and procreating and eating.

And if the dog could list his priorities between the racing kennels and the sofa and cuddles - assuming he gets food in both, procreates in neither, chases a stuffed toy on the race track and live cats and squirrels in his home garden, how would the list go?

So, denying a dog natural behaviour is ok if you give it a sofa, cut its balls off and give it a cuddle - but not if you want to earn money from it?

Are you saying that all greyhounds (or dogs) living in homes are denied their natural behaviour? To an extent I would agree, but only to an extent.

[Nettle]

To remain objective, we need to see this from a dog point of view.

Is keeping dogs kennelled inherently abusive?

Hardly. Hunting hounds, shooting dogs, military dogs, police dogs, rescue dogs, racing dogs, show dogs - mostly live in kennels. As long as those kennels are clean, adequately sized and weatherproof, with proper bedding, and the dogs there are properly exercised, with 24/7 access to water, there is nothing abusive about kennel life. Horses are fine in stables, sheep and cattle do well in fields or on plains/hills/commons. They are animals not furry people.

Is the life of a racing greyhound automatically inferior to that of the average pet dog?

No way. The average pet dog has a miserable life. Underexercised, crated for long hours, fed on cheap rubbish, unfulfilled in its natural instincts, untrained but abused when it does something normal and doglike, forced to co-exist with dogs and people that scare it, the list is longer than I can spend time typing. Fortunately there are people like us who take more care, but we aren't a huge percentage compared to the rest.

Do we talk about banning pet ownership? Some organisations do. Most of us here would rather educate than punish the good in order to tackle the bad. But a life in animal training shows beyond doubt that we are a punishment-oriented species that would much rather lash out than educate. We have to be taught to be positive.

Most greyhound kennels give their charges an excellent life so far as the hounds are concerned. Where welfare starts to unravel is when hounds are retired to the wrong environment. By coincidence, yesterday evening I met a lady who, having worked in greyhound rescue for some years took it upon herself to see what really went on, as part of her thesis. She worked at kennels, led up dogs for racing, spent time behind the scenes at the track, talked to the vets, went up-country to see puppies being raised, and followed an entire litter's progress from conception to the track. The whole litter is racing now.

I admire that. She says she was shocked to find out all these things she'd been told went on, didn't.

[JudyN]

I admire that. She says she was shocked to find out all these things she'd been told went on, didn't.

Or maybe, didn't on the scale she'd been led to believe?

I agree about the welfare of dogs in well-kept kennels. Many well-kept sighthounds do little apart from sleep/chill between walks anyway and if they're not clingy won't feel the need to do so in the same place as their owner. As long as the kennel is comfortable and they get sufficient exercise, they're happy.

Eat, sleep and run is pretty much the natural behaviour for a hound!

[Nettle]

Or maybe, didn't on the scale she'd been led to believe?

Yes, that's a much better way of putting it, thank you

Anyone like to research the provenance and dates of the awful photos?

[bendog]

Haven't managed to find anything yet. But found this video that claims there were some very recent cruelty cases (http://youtu.be/kbg_Np36f-E) Warning NOT NICE VIEWING! And I suspect the stats are not reliable.

The other side of the story from greyhound racing board http://www.thedogs.co.uk/TheTruthAboutRacing.aspx

There are suggestions a lot of the photos come from abroad - Asia etc. "Rusty" was a case from Wales in 2004 apparently, which is a particularly horrific story and one often seen on anti racing propaganda.

Local (to me) story of cruelty http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpoo ... -25657708/
I am NOT saying this is representative of the greyhound racing industry as a whole. And it is worth noting that this is the most recent story of cruelty related to greyhound racing in the Liverpool Echo (which is Liverpools local paper) whereas there are at least 4 cases of animal cruelty THIS YEAR also reported in the Echo. Looking nationwide I reckon you would find far more cases of cruelty that are pet dog related than greyhound racing related.



I personally can accept that being put to sleep is not actually a bad thing for a dog, or any animal. Though it still tugs at me emotionally, I can understand that dead dogs don't suffer and they don't know any different. The problem seems to be dogs being dumped, mistreated, or inhumanely killed once they are no longer fit to race. If people objected less to healthy dogs being put down then perhaps owners would be more prepared to go to a vet and have their dogs put down humanely. Injuries on the track are another issue it seems. Somewhat unavoidable, but the risk should surely be minimised. The same problem seems to be common in horse racing, and I'm not entirely sure myself how I feel about the Grand National, or other dangerous races.

[Nettle]

Some sensible comments there, Bendog.

Interestingly, in the November issue of Dogs Monthly, pages 64/5 is an article quoting figures of 70% of service dogs fail their training, and 70% of police dogs also are discarded before they ever get on the beat.

[bendog]

Funnily enough I saw a post on a rescue in Cumbria earlier too. They get an awful lot of Border Collies in their rescue that have not been suitable for working sheep. Most have never lived in a home, are young dogs 1-3 yrs old and I would guess much less suited to the average pet home than most greyhounds.

Guide dog puppy walkers will sometimes take back the pup they cared for if it fails training. I know of one lady who has just sent her guide dog pup off for training and will not take another for a year or so in case the pup she raised needs a permenant home.

Surplus Police dog pups are usually rehomed to policemen/women I think. My old next door neighbour was a police man and had three successive German shepherds from pups. All of which were bred for police work and then for whatever reason not needed (eg they only want 3 from a litter and extras rehomed). There was quite a waiting list to get one of these pups apparently and they were offered to police staff first before being made available to general public if any extra. And they were stunning dogs (I used to puppysit for them after school) and great burglar deterrents!

[Nettle]

If police handlers can take on these dogs, it's a great solution but many have to be euthanased because of their specific attack training.

eg they only want 3 from a litter and extras rehomed) Maybe that's where the anti-greyhound people got their idea from when they claim only a couple of pups from each litter are wanted?


Most failed guide dogs can go on to be good pets as long as the owners are aware of their specific toilet training needs and also that they are trained from the get-go not to interact with other dogs.

I am at ease with these matters, but there are no doubt agencies who would say that this is flooding the rescue world with dogs that are then taking homes other dogs could have

Although any dog in rescue is potentially taking a home another dog could have..........

[JudyN]

Although any dog in rescue is potentially taking a home another dog could have..........

Yes, and maybe the main problem is the sheer number of these dogs rather than one specific group. It's be interesting to see a breakdown of dogs needing to be rehomed in terms of strays, ex-racers, failed workers, given up for genuine reasons, etc. If we could stop overbreeding in the first place, concentrating on the areas where there are welfare/cruelty, e.g. puppy farms and anyone going for quantity rather than quality and neglect the 'excess', then there could be enough homes to go round - or at least fewer dogs with little chance of a home.

[Nettle]

I really do feel that the heart of the matter is twofold:

Puppy farmers churning out badly-bred badly-kept puppies and selling them to unsuitable homes. So many people, when refused a puppy by a good breeder because their lifestyle at that time was not suitable for having a dog, go and get one from a puppy farmer. Around six months later, those puppies are in Rescue.

Dog rescues importing dogs from other countries. Something someone I know compared to 'trying to empty a bath using a teaspoon while both taps are still running'. Are we all aware of the scale of dogs imported to UK from Eire and Europe? It is IMMENSE.

Any other source of dogs coming into rescue is very small beer compared to these two. Create more room by destroying greyhound racing, and the rescues will simply import more dogs.

I can't speak for outside UK.

[jacksdad]

Dog rescues importing dogs from other countries. Something someone I know compared to 'trying to empty a bath using a teaspoon while both taps are still running'. Are we all aware of the scale of dogs imported to UK from Eire and Europe? It is IMMENSE.

this raises at least a couple questions

Are dog rescues becoming the politically correct "puppy mills"?

And is some of "their" objections to breeding more from a "kill the competition" verse a legitimate concern about breeding contributing to over population.

I have linked this blog post before, but the study raises some interesting questions and fits in with the direction this discussion is going.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theoth ... us-rescues

[gwd]

Are dog rescues becoming the politically correct "puppy mills"?

And is some of "their" objections to breeding more from a "kill the competition" verse a legitimate concern about breeding contributing to over population.

I have linked this blog post before, but the study raises some interesting questions and fits in with the direction this discussion is going.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theoth ... us-rescues

you might find this site interesting.

http://www.thedogplace.org/SHELTERS/She ... touski.asp

[Nettle]

Dog rescues importing dogs from other countries. Something someone I know compared to 'trying to empty a bath using a teaspoon while both taps are still running'. Are we all aware of the scale of dogs imported to UK from Eire and Europe? It is IMMENSE.

this raises at least a couple questions

Are dog rescues becoming the politically correct "puppy mills"?

And is some of "their" objections to breeding more from a "kill the competition" verse a legitimate concern about breeding contributing to over population.

Yes, you are on the button there with many of then (obviously not all).

A lot of Rescues here are no more than second-hand dog-dealers. They make a living and feel good about themselves because they are helping doggies.

They import here because we don't actually have a stray dog problem. And if more people knew where to get help, not so many would give up on their adolescents and so fewer dogs would be handed in to Rescue.

It's partly an education issue - again -

[Mrs Sowerberry]

Does anyone have any figures for the numbers of imported rescue dogs? Compared to native rescued dogs that is.

This is an interesting concept though. I have often wondered why dogs are brought from Italy, Romania etc to the UK. It never occurred to me that it could be financially profitable.
Does anyone know how much it would cost to import a dog - I thought they had to be quarantined for a considerable time and have (At least) rabies vaccination and have a passport. I would have thought it would cost more to bring a dog into the country (UK in my case) than a rescue would get for it - typically £100 - £150. Or am I missing the point?

[Nettle]

It depends on the country, but in many European countries, it's cheaper to keep the dogs over there until they fulfil the 'Pet Passport' criteria. I know some dogs come over here and then into quarantine at cost because the kennels can charge what it likes.

Don't forget the donations and fundraising income. It isn't just adoption fees coming in. Vets often work at cost for Rescues as well.