Pack leaders???

[Noobs]

There are some things that can be mixed with the positive training, such as being calm and confident yourself, rewarding calm behavior, doing more exercise, etc.

Who says any of those things are not part of positive training?

Noobs, I didn't mean to imply that. What I mean that being calm, etc. is not unique to any training regimen, especially how dog easily pick up our body language. Does that make more sense now?

Yes, thanks for clarifying.

[Desiree]

Wow! There are a lot of strong opinions on this topic I appreciate everything youguys have said. I don't think I am going to worry about the concept of "pack leader" as much as being a person my dogs know they can depend on to keep them safe, fed and give them affection. The last couple of days I have just been going with the rewards and praise when he is good and a no! or ah-ah sound when he is doing something he shouldn't and redirecting to the things that are ok. I do ignore him if he jumps on my legs and wait until all paws are on the ground before I pet him. We are having some better luck with the potty training and he is getting less anxious about the cage. He now goes straight for the peanut butter in his kong when I put him in in the mornings instead of straight to the barking. So, I am not going to worry about the rest of it except for me trying to be calm (by "it" I mean the pack leader thing)

[Dakine'smama]

Not trying to hijack but I do have a related question. My boyfriend trains our puppy 60% dominance/pack leader training (but not cruel Cesar Millan type) and 40% positive reinforcement but I'm focusing on positive training. It's going really well except I worry that our puppy (GSD) will have issues stemming from this. Would it be harmful to his training or temperament?

[Nettle]

That depends on the puppy's temperament and what exactly is being done. How about starting your own thread with this telling us what is going on, and then see what responses you get.

[jacksdad]

Wow! There are a lot of strong opinions on this topic I appreciate everything you guys have said. I don't think I am going to worry about the concept of "pack leader" as much as being a person my dogs know they can depend on to keep them safe, fed and give them affection.

I think you have reached an excellent conclusion my self. a lot of irrelevant things are done in the name of "being pack leader". Not to mention sometimes all out cruel.

[Dakine'smama]

That depends on the puppy's temperament and what exactly is being done. How about starting your own thread with this telling us what is going on, and then see what responses you get.

Thanks I will!

[Desiree]

Well I am happy to say that Zippy has had a great couple of days! He is starting to learn that he will be ok if I go away for a little while, and I will come back. He hasn't had an accident (that I know of) in 3 days! He is starting to go over to the baby gate when he needs to go out, or atleast whenever he goes and puts his paws on it or stands there for a min I take him out and it seems to be what he is telling me. I even had to lock him in the living room for an hour or so while we broung the new washing machine in and took it to the basement. He didn't freak out or tear up my carpet this time So I guess whatever I am doing, its starting to work. I guess this should be with one of my other posts but Im so happy I just had to put it out there!!! I don't think I will be going back for the 2nd appt with the behavior lady. I really just don't want to worry about all of the pack leader stuff. Its too conflicting with my personality and the way my house runs and the way my dogs work together, if that makes sense. It seems to me that the 3 of them are a pack and out of the 3 there is sort of a leader. The older 2, Jake and Jade step in and correct Zippy when he is doing something they don't like, and also when he is doing something they know is against the house rules, from time to time. I have never seen anything like it. Its kind of like a big brother telling the little brother "you're gonna be in trouble if mom sees you doing that". Its neat to see it. I can almost see them rolling their eyes when Zippy does something wrong, like I told you so!

[Mila_7]

I think what lots of pack theory enthusiasts and people used to using corrections is... this has worked for me, so because it works for THEM they are sure it is the only way that works, and that it works best, and that they have the happiest dogs (which is actually because they think of "submissive" dogs are ones that are in reality displaying sad / stressed body language, and "dominant" dogs that are in reality showing normal, happy confident body posture). And regarding this, it could be PART of the reason why they don't want to give up on the "alpha" mindset, because since they are (unfortunately misreading) dog body language, they THINK they see a happy dog, when they actually missing some very key points. So they form their opinions on their, erm, no offense, but limited experiences and their personal opinions.
And they think I CAN'T have a dog who respects my wishes and commands if I don't correct them / be their alpha, when in reality, considering the number of service dogs, guide dogs, herding dogs, tracking dogs, military dogs, high level competition dogs, and every type of working dog there is that are trained without corrections, and without the flawed idea of "who is alpha / pack leader" this obviously is not true,
BUT it is their belief, they haven't experienced what we've experienced, so while I would LOVE to educate everyone on this method of training without force- that they believe it I can't blame them. I always cringe when I see positive reinforcement trainers totally dissing those (like those that are Cesar Millan fans)-though thankfully this isn't very common, as most of us tend to be positive when dealing with people as well as dogs, positive reinforcement turns into a lifestyle, not just a way of training - when I know quite a few positive reinforcement trainers who used to be CM fans, and I used to be one as well- so how can I blame them?! I've just found a better way, and they haven't seen themselves how much better it is, SO I can't blame them for being defensive when they see that people are dissing their way of training, because, well, at least for the most part, their way of training and seeing dogs has worked for THEM.
They also often don't know exactly how force free training works, so they think you can't, for example, get reliability in public places / places with tons of distractions because they don't know how to set the dog up for success and work gradually- just because we don't correct doesn't mean we don't have just as (and often more so, actually) obedient and reliable dogs!
Just my two cents:) I think it's often misunderstandings that get in their way of seeing how we really train, and thinking that our way CAN'T work basically.
I hope that made sense.