Dogs & Horses (sorry long)

[Ushi]

Hello Again,

Well I have been working on training both dogs seperately, and things are going quite well. We have settled into a bit of a routine, where after work I trained the dogs seperately, then took them over to our fenced area to let them run off leash together, then inside for dinner and relaxation. Things seemed to be improving. The younger male dog is a very fast learner and is more sensitive than the older female, who is fairly dominant and responds differentely to the training.

Anyway, All was going well until I started stabling my ponies. The dogs actually live in the barn where the stables are during the day while we are at work (most secure area we have) the horses are not in the stables during the day, so the dogs have the barn to themselves. (which they seem to be quite happy about) My routine has now changed, I still train the dogs when I get home from work, then they "hang out" with me while I clean the stables and prepare feeds for the ponies, (they seem to rather like this time) then after I have finished with the ponies, the dogs get the run in the fenced area as normal. Now... the problem... this starts the minute I touch a horse. At first I just left the dogs in the barn and brang the horses into the stables (the dogs cant get into the stables with the horses, but have access to the 'corridor' tack and feed rooms), well, this was a disaster the dogs started to bark, whine, squeel and go crazy scratching and jumping at the stable walls (which in turn scares my ponies!!) So the next night I brang some chicken to the stables, locked the dogs in the tack room so they could not see or scare the horses, I brang the horses in, then let the dogs out into the main barn area and tried to take there attention away from the horses with chicken. This sort of worked - the young boy, he was more interested in the chicken, and left the horses, but the girl, she didnt care about the chicken, and continued to bark, squeel, jump and scratch at the stables.

I have also tried... tieing the dogs outside the barn on long leads with there harness on, so they can see me bring the horses from the paddock, but be secure so as to not jump or scare the horses- this doesnt work, they just lunge from the end of the leads and bark and squel. I tried to take each dog seperately on the lead into the stable with the shetland (who is not much larger than the dogs) and have the dogs sit quietly while getting fed chicken treats and lots of praise... no good, both dogs are too distracted and jump up and down pull bark and squeel - and this is not fair on the pony.

I dont know what to do !!! It was my dream to have land so my dogs could join me out with the horses - meaning I got to spend more time with them all, but the dogs just turn into crazy idiots the minute a horse appears. The bit I really have trouble understanding is that the older female dogs has been around horses since she was a pup. I used to take her out to the paddock with me every night and she would run about sniffing while I rode, fed and groomed the horses. She never minded the horse then - in fact, the two of them were quite good friends. That was about 12 months ago tho, I moved my horse to a new centre - where there were no dogs allowed, so until we moved to the place we are in now, that has land, she has not seen the horse for about 12 months- and the boy dog, had never seen horses before, but he seems to only be getting upset because the girl dog is.

Where do I go from here. Its very important to me that I be able to have my dogs and horses in the same area, I never intend on leaving them alone together unsupervised, but at least while I am working around the stables and paddocks, I want to be able to kee my dogs with me without this crazy behaviour.

Another thing.. I dont know if this is related.. the girl dog refused to settle last night. They both sleep in our bedroom, and we never have an issue with them settling to sleep (they are fairly lazy dogs usually) but the last 2 nights, the girl dog will not lay quietly, she constantly paces the room and it doesnt matter what i try, she just will not settle. I take her out to toilet (will not go) I offer her a drink, give her more blankets, bring her up on the bed with me and stroke her, lock her out of my room altogether as time out.... but nothing works ! - Could this be a follow on to her getting so upset about the horses ?

Please... any suggestions on how I can get my two beloved species to live in harmony would be most appreciated... after 2 sleepless nights and now 2 weeks of juggling barking and ponies I am at my wits end !!!

[jacksdad]

The solution might be as simple as some counter conditioning, but I don't want to lead you down the wrong path by mistake.

However, I will say for the moment, no more trying to introduce the dogs and horse. Particularly by leading the dogs into the horse's stable. I am assuming your have ceased this already, but just in case your still trying I strongly urge you to stop. For introductions to be productive the dogs have to be calm. If they "explode" into barking when close to the horse, whining, lunging etc. your dogs aren't ready for this type of encounter and they definitively won't be able to deal with going into the stable.

I would also hold off on timeouts for the moment. I realize you were desperate and gasping at straws for a solution, but until we have a better idea what is going on and a game plan, I would avoid anything punishment related.

There are some members on the board with both dog training and horse training experience, I am sure they will be around soon and help figure this out and develop a game plan. Until then the best thing you can do is keep the dogs and the horse as separate as possible. At the very least your dogs sound stressed and while under stress they can't be trained.

give your self, your dogs and the horses a break from introduction attempts, take two breaths and try and relax. Help will be here soon.

[Ushi]

Oh, I have ceased the stable introductions - I tried that once, and realised it was not working ! The issue I have is that I am often alone, and I need to manage dogs and horses alone. Would me putting them in the tack room be considered time out ? If I cant put them in a room to be safe, I dont know how I will manage

Its just so frusterating as the female dog was good with horses in the past, so I have no idea what has changed her mind- my only guess is that she is being territorial either over the barn - as the dogs would see this as there space - or over me, that she dislikes me giving attention to the horses rather than her.

I have had dogs and horses since before I could walk - which is why i cant work out why they are not getting along like my previous dogs did with our horses in the past (to be honest, I never had to train the dogs to 'like' horses, I had to train them to keep away from them for safety sake!)

I think it might be time for me to start being more dominant with the female dog... I might re-read Victoria's book, I think allot of her problems are based around the fact she is now in a pack situation with the other dog- and tends to be rather dominant- I dont think I am asserting my role as leader well enough ?? (I am soft, I love having her snuggle on the couch with me, I rarely ever assert authority until it is too late- i.e. when she is carrying on silly and not listening anyway!!)

Thanks Jacks Dad..

[emmabeth]

I think I would counter condition - but you would need the assistance of another person, so that they can handle the horse and you handle the dog, and of course, one horse/dog combo at a time.

Do the dogs see the horses at any point in a normal day, even see them grazing outdoors from a distance - ie, is there a distance that you are aware of, that either dog can see a horse, be aware taht the horse is there, but not react?

If you have the space to do so you could attempt working with one dog at a time (on a long lead and harness) with horses in sight, ideally grazing rather than tied or stabled, as these latter two options will risk ponies feeling trapped and increases the likelyhood that they will react badly should the dog bark.

What happens if you are working with a dog, and someone ELSE is handling a pony?... is it that they find someone + pony incredibly exciting.. or is it just YOU handling a pony that they cannot handle?

Also another thing to check, and forgive me if my mental picture of your barn/stabling is wrong.. but.. if you are in the stable and the dog is shut out can the dog see you? Does that send your dogs loopy?

Please dont start attempting to dominate either of your dogs - this isnt the problem at all.

You may need to be more consistant about rules/boundaries etc and be firmer with her, but not in a domineering way - it may be that having another dog present winds her up more, it may be she realises that when your attention is on the horse it cannot fully be on her as well... but definitely avoid the 'alpha leader' type stuff, as the likelyhood is that will make things a lot worse.

I thinkt he first thing to do is work one dog at a time, where they can see a horse out grazing and that horse is doing very little, and you are WAY more interesting.

Get going with that and see what results you get - you might need to be qutie a bit further away from the horse than you currently are used to, once you can work either dog in the presence of a horse, then ask some friends to come and help out handling a horse for you whilst you work the dog.

If so, is it perhaps that they cannot get to you that is the issue, rather than specifically that you are workign with a pony.

[jacksdad]

I think it might be time for me to start being more dominant with the female dog... I might re-read Victoria's book, I think allot of her problems are based around the fact she is now in a pack situation with the other dog- and tends to be rather dominant- I dont think I am asserting my role as leader well enough ?? (I am soft, I love having her snuggle on the couch with me, I rarely ever assert authority until it is too late- i.e. when she is carrying on silly and not listening anyway!!)

Thanks Jacks Dad..

I have been working with my fearful dog who has a hard time with both other dogs and humans. until just a few months ago he would explode into barking, growling, lunging, flopping fits and then he would take it up a notch. One of the first trainers I tried to work with tried to tell me my dog was trying to be dominate that I needed to be more the "alpha". She wanted me to put a prong collar on him, give him leash pops with it when he acted out towards dogs, even "hang" him with it. I didn't follow any of this advice. Today with counter conditioning my dog can pass by most dogs with very high odds he will be calm. he is very calm around humans now as long as they ignore him. even when they don't he is staying calm most of the time. we are even actually working with him being off leash in carefully chosen locations. Something I never thought would be possible. NONE of our success required me yelling, correcting, punishing, being more "dominate/alpha". Oh and I am the biggest softy you will meet when it comes to my pets. My dog Jack is laying right next to me on the bed as I type this.

So don't worry about being a softy, or needing to be more "dominate". Focus on what it is you want your dog to do when they are near a horse, see you with the horse etc. with some help from the members here develop a plan to get the behavior you want. Oh and keep being a softy, but a softy with a good training plan.

[Ushi]

I am thinking that maybe the word "dominante" was the wrong word. - What I meant was that I needed to reaffirm the boundaries in the house with her a bit better (like making her sit before getting her dinner, asking her to move off the couch to her bed, and work on her 'watch me' a bit more ) She is a master of selective hearing, and I have noticed lately that she has almost stopped listening to me completly when I let her off in the fenced area of an evening. - I dont find this an issue, as I give the dogs the time in this area to be dogs, sniff run and play without me telling them what to do or being confined. - However, she did still used to watch me during these times, but that has ceased.

Can I just ask a silly question... counter conditioning ? - could somebody please define that for me ?

Oh, and in relation to the distance, they are ok from about 10 metres away, just any closer than that and its crazy time. they are usually ok to walk past the horses grazing, even walk past them in the stable if I have them concentrating on something else - it seems to really be as soon as they are in the same area as the horses or I am with the horses.

I never considered seeing if they react that way when another person handles the horse - I might try that and see. and no - puppies cannot see me when I am in the stable clearly, as the walls are timber and about 5 foot high- they can see a bit through the gaps between the planks, but not allot. They can see nothing from the tack room,as that has solid walls to the ceiling.

I dont want to use any forcefull methods in the training- I know they dont work - I have worked with Arabian horses long enough to realise that to get the best from our 4 legged friends, you cant use strength or bully an animal as large as a horse - they have to want to do what you are asking them, there is no such thing as defeat when you work as a team

Does anybody know of any trainers in Tasmania Australia I could seek to help me and my partner get a training plan together ?

[Nettle]

I'd suggest as a start to exercise your dogs before you get the horses in, then leave the dogs safely confined nearby but with something nice to occupy them while you attend to the horses.

Then as others have said - slowly work up to the dogs accepting the horses. Also take them to see horses being ridden because it can really disturb dogs when their person is up on a horse, so get them used to seeing other ridden horses first.

[jacksdad]

I am thinking that maybe the word "dominante" was the wrong word. - What I meant was that I needed to reaffirm the boundaries in the house with her a bit better (like making her sit before getting her dinner, asking her to move off the couch to her bed, and work on her 'watch me' a bit more )

Ah. ok. we are basically on the same page. Dominance/Dominate as a word/description is often misunderstood in terms of dogs/behavior/training.

She is a master of selective hearing, and I have noticed lately that she has almost stopped listening to me completely when I let her off in the fenced area of an evening. - I dont find this an issue, as I give the dogs the time in this area to be dogs, sniff run and play without me telling them what to do or being confined. - However, she did still used to watch me during these times, but that has ceased.

"selective" hearing can be for many reasons. Simple as you inadvertently taught her to not listen or maybe your just not interesting enough to break her attention away from what has her attention. Example of how someone could teach their dog to ignore them is you ask for a sit. dog doesn't do it, so you ask again, and again, and again, and again. or when trying to recall your dog to you. you call out their name over and over and over etc. Good example of not being "interesting" enough again using the recall example is your dog is off sniffing, finds something really cool to sniff and check out. You call out their name to come to you, but the dog has learned that you only have dry uninteresting treats as a reward. Nothing compared to this really smelly cool smell that turns out to be OMG!!! the coolest a dead rat to roll in.

Can I just ask a silly question... counter conditioning ? - could somebody please define that for me ?

Not a silly question at all. counter conditioning. your dogs currently erupt in to barking/lunging fits when they get close to your horse. this has become their conditioned response. see horse, go ballistic. you counter that conditioning by teaching a new behavior. In this case you want them to be calm around horses.

Oh, and in relation to the distance, they are ok from about 10 metres away, just any closer than that and its crazy time. they are usually ok to walk past the horses grazing, even walk past them in the stable if I have them concentrating on something else - it seems to really be as soon as they are in the same area as the horses or I am with the horses.

this is good info. So using that info and an example how counter conditioning might look for you and your dogs and the horse. For the situations you know cause your dogs to erupt, never let them be closer then those 10 meters. 15 might even be better to start. At those distances ask them to look at you, treat if they do and are calm. ask them to look at the horse then back to you. treat if they are calm. the treat rewards the calm and makes them feel good. this creates a new association towards the horses. horses are cool because I now feel good around them. then slowly over time you move closer to the horse as they can handle it.

So that is a very simplistic example of how you would counter condition your dogs. Depending on what it is that sets them off, your long term goals for how you (you not the dogs) want to interact with your horse that the dogs may see you doing, you may need to work through each of these separately and with one dog at a time. meaning you may have to work for say 15 minutes with one dog, put it somewhere safe, work 15 minutes with the other dog.

nettles suggestion for exercise is important. tired dogs have less energy to react to what it is that bothers them. So exercise and stress management (both yours and the dogs) will be just as important, if not more then any actual "training/counter conditioning" you do.

[Ushi]

Very quick update ... On the weekend I had quite a bit of gardening / fencing general property maintenance work to do, so, I put my dogs in their harnesses and took them with me on long leads, this meant they could see everything around us (including the horses) they could sniff and follow me about, without the risk of them getting distracted and running off. The first maybe, 10 minutes they were very anxious and excited about being able to see the horses from about 20 metres away, I just played with them at first and then got on with doing what I had to do, by the end of the day (we spent about 3 hours all up) they were following me about without me needing to rely on the long line to bring them back to me, they were walking past the horses from about 5 metres away (in the paddock not the stables!) without a problem and were sitting/ lying relaxed while I worked. This was great, the stables are still another kettle of fish, but at least they are starting to accept the horses in the paddock, and realising that the moment they get out of there "normal" areas they cant just run off and dont have to be excited.

I aim to do this long lead thing as often as I can while working on the property on the weekends, I think this was really good for them.

During the week I will have to stick with the counter conditioning and normal training routine - as its dark before and after work still ! '

Thanks for all the help guys