What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Get to know other Positively members here.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Post Reply
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

Thank goodness you managed to get Delta safe, Erica. Had the owner not seen you there? If she knew her dog hated Delta she should have acted before the GD did.

I learnt about the VoD when being advised to use it on Jasper when he jumped up. It didn't work...
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
ZaraD
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:06 am
Location: Staffordshire, UK

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by ZaraD »

Been busy here , my sister and little Theo have moved out ( along with her leonberger) she has found a flat that is within her budget , its ground floir and they allowed the dog.

2 days ago a new addition has joined our little family ( just me,mom and lara) my mom was given a 14week old Ragdoll Kitten for her 60th birthday by my brother, who is beyond cute. I will post pics when i can but am very busy with exams at the min. Lara loves Rafa ( moms a huge tennis fan and rafael nadal is her favourite) im so glad they get on well together. My first time owning a cat ( part owning) moms had cats before and is thrilled as shes always wanted a ragdoll. Hes very calm and laid back which mom said is typical of the breed.

Other than that everything is great here.

Hope everyone is good
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

Mini-rant: spotted on an RSPCA site promoting a large lurcher: 'Typically for sighthounds, Gary has a high prey drive, meaning he is overexcited and reactive around other dogs, cats, birds and small furry things.'

What a failure to understand 'high prey drive', by people who really ought to know what it means :evil: I hope people don't assume from that that all lurchers are reactive to a bunch of random triggers.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

:evil: Relatively few people - even among professionals - know what "prey drive" means. A lot of trainers think it means chasing a ball (oh per-leeeeeze).

As for the RSPCA - grassroots staff are often very good: higher officials markedly less so. I wish animal rescues in general would wise up about dog behaviour, and train their staff in it too.


But then, Very Famous dog ethologists have said that modern pet dogs have no idea about hunting........
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

I obviously have an old-fashioned pet dog then :lol:

Would 'proper' prey drive in, say, a JRT look very different from that in a sighthound? Or would a JRT shown a barnful of rats show the same sort of focus that Jasper does if he spots a deer?
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

The dog reacts to the specific prey. So a lurcher would kill rats the same way as a JRT, and a JRT would run after a deer up to the point where it outpaced him/he couldn't see it. Then he would probably follow its scent or else metaphorically shrug his shoulders and come back.

As for focus - it has to be total, every time. But because the task is different, lurchers recover and calm down instantly after a catch (unless they have terrier genes) while terriers tend to remain wired for the rest of the day.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

Happily, Jasper's sighthound genes take precedence over his terrier ones when it comes to calming down after a chase. I was wondering yesterday whether I could compare the focus of prey drive to the focus of a top surgeon absolutely in their zone performing an operation that required all their skill - it would hopefully make much clearer the difference between prey drive and reactivity.

Nettle, how common do you think it is for cats/small fluffy dogs to elicit true prey drive in dogs? Jasper's reaction to cats is absolutely not prey drive (barking, lunging, redirecting onto me), and it makes sense that prey drive in an ex-racer greyhound could be triggered by anything small and fluffy, but I'm not sure how common it would be otherwise.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

It's one of those "it depends" things.

Jas lives with a cat, finds him/her fascinating, knows he shouldn't get too involved - so when he sees/scents one outside, he's still fascinated, but knows to be wary. Dogs that have not been steadied to cats (I do this with all mine) or who have killed a cat or seen another dog do so, OR have made friendly overtures to a cat and been spiked, will likely become cat killers. It is natural albeit undesirable. But it isn't really prey drive.

With small dogs, once close up any dog knows they are dogs, but sighthound types get there faster and sometimes make mistakes. Again, if it has happened once it is liable to do so again. Sometimes small dogs offer quite aggressive behaviour to big dogs, and the response depends on what has happened then as well as what has happened before. I knew of an occasion when someone thought it was so funny to let 5 terriers charge snarling and snapping at a greyhound. One bit her and held on, and in the blink of an eye they had 4 terriers. That's dog behaviour not prey drive.

That shimmering focus we see as the missile locks on to the target - that's prey drive. Prey drive is NOT aggression. You don't feel aggressive towards your dinner.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

I like 'shimmering focus'! I just wondered if some dogs 'love' cats in the same way that they 'love' deer (as you said, aggression doesn't into it at all) - as opposed to the more common dog who 'hates' cats and is aggressive towards them.

To be honest, I'm not at all sure that Jasper associates outside cats with the cat he lives with. I've often wondered how he'd react if he saw another Birman (or a cat that looks similar) - would it be 'cat' or would it be 'another Monty'? He's definitely aggressive to other cats and I'm pretty sure he'd kill one if he got the chance - his self-control with them now is more down to 9 years 'training', aka me trying to keep control when we spot one!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

It's a fascinating question. I suspect dogs 'grade' prey with a cost/benefit analysis eg more meat on a deer than a rabbit and no more work to catch it, cats can hurt and there isn't much meat on them, therefore do we only catch cats when there is nothing else? Or is everything prey until some things aren't? Or do we do dogs a disservice by imagining a same-level response when some like this and some prefer that?

Some dogs will tackle anything, even if it hurts, and either develop the knack of despatching potential hurters before they can actually hurt them or have it instinctively from the first try. But is that sometimes territorial rather than predatory? For example, wolves eat coyotes, dogs and cats, coyotes eat foxes and dogs and cats, but certain dogs hunted together will make every effort to despatch coyotes and wolves. Coyotes and wolves I suspect see cats just as a meal, and a lot of foxes take cats too, so that tells us a bit. But cats sell their lives dearly, and maybe aren't such a good choice if other prey is about. Hmmmmm.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by JudyN »

Nettle wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 am Or is everything prey until some things aren't? Or do we do dogs a disservice by imagining a same-level response when some like this and some prefer that?
I get the impression that it's almost entirely genetically based - Jasper didn't 'learn' the difference between cats and rabbits, he already knew. And I know, from a horrible early experience, that he knew exactly how to bring down and dispatch a deer efficiently when he was still very young. I'd like to say that he knew the difference between squirrels and rabbits from day one but I can't be sure - we spent a lot of time in the local woods from when he was around 3 months old so he'd soon have learnt that they keep cheating by climbing trees.

A while back, though, he saw a squirrel running across the bottom of a disused clay pit and responded as if it was a rabbit. This was an odd place to see a squirrel (it wasn't that close to trees), and we often see rabbits there, so I'm not sure if he was responding purely instinctively to the location/movement because he would expect something of that size & colour in that location to be a rabbit, or it was a simple case of mistaken identity... I'm not sure if that makes sense, it's a subtle distinction. Maybe 'It's a rabbit! I'm off!' versus 'It's small, grey and fluffy and running in an open space - I'm off!'

But then I'd also say he had some sort of instinctive understanding of lure coursing before he even had a go, just from the look of intent focus as he watched the grown-up dogs do it. And when he had a trial run, you'd think he'd been doing it for years.

And then there's my friend's working lab who 'switched on' the first time she got her shotgun out of its case even though he'd never seen one before. Which I was dubious about, but if instinct can be bred in to focus on particular prey animals, why not inanimate objects too?

The cat question is interesting. Other animals seem to be categorised as 'prey', 'friendly', 'scary' or 'irrelevant' (there's possibly other categories I've missed), but they simply seem to elicit hatred. If they're not scary and not prey, why aren't they irrelevant? Actually foxes are similar - Jasper hates foxes too, possibly more so than cats, but maybe he sees them as threats. Though not the same sorts of threats as huskies and oversized mastiffs used to be, when he'd go and hide behind a tree!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

Back to the cost/benefit analysis with the squirrel aspect. Or indeed the rabbit aspect. An experienced dog won't chase if there is no chance of a catch. The mental measurements of speed, trajectory, % chance of escape are made so fast, but people don't realise and call the dog "stupid" if it doesn't chase a rabbit that is just beside a rabbit hole, or a squirrel right beside a tree. How stupid dogs must think such people are, especially the ones that hiss "rabbit!" or "get it" when there is zero chance.

Re: foxes: many dogs are hardwired as seeing them as prey, but some will not tackle them at any price. I never yet met a dog that didn't want to chase a deer, and I've known a number that did the catch and despatch before they were a year old.

But cats? Another thing entirely, I suspect. Though I do know a number of incidents where a previously catproof dog killed a cat it had been living with for a long time. I suspect there's a lot more to it, but as the owners weren't present on any of the occasions, maybe the cat just jumped on a sleeping dog.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Fundog
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Fundog »

Well that was a somewhat interesting discussion about prey drive! I have a brief video of Zoey in what I call "hunt drive," but I need to figure out how to share it here. Zoey does have an insane hunt drive. We have a standing play date with a specific group everyday at the dog park. Only, Zoey doesn't play much with the other dogs. Instead, she hunts the gophers ( also known as ground squirrels) that riddle a corner of the park with holes. Her persistence has paid off, each day improving her technique. Last week she caught four of the little rodents! Now she is obsessed. Going to the dog park is all she thinks about.

It is rather fascinating to watch a dog do what it was bred to do. (Though Zoey is technically a "bird dog" lol). People driving past the dog park will pause a bit longer at the stop sign to stare in fascination, haha! Though for me, after watching my dog frozen on point for 20 minutes, I'm ready to pull out a book. But this is my third gundog, so...

Well anyway, I just wanted to share my own exp with hunting breeds. If I can figure out how to share that video, I will.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by Nettle »

I'll look forward to that, Fundog. Watching bird dogs in action is amazing, and kudos to you for understanding the 'freeze and hold' part.

I used to see a blithering idiot who, having got himself a pointing dog, called it stupid and walloped it every time it went on point. Sigh.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: What are you and your dogs up to today? Part 2

Post by jacksdad »

kind felt like Hannibal from the A-Team (80's tv show).... Love it when a plan comes together.

Had two of my more challenging clients have REALLY, REALLY good sessions this weekend. Ah... so nice when the human half of the client not just see's the light at the end of the tunnel, but gets a few minutes to bath in that light and regain hope.

In one case, the owner for the first time ever got to sit next to her dog, who was laying on the grass relaxed, and watch cars drive by and no reaction by the dog.

Still a long road ahead, but we bask in even the smallest successes, for the build and become bigger successes.

Hope you all had good weekends too.
Post Reply