airedale and coyote playing

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jacksdad
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airedale and coyote playing

Post by jacksdad » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:18 pm

Here is a little something interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_GKqBqYANE

*updated link to another source

Been a long time since we had a video like this to mull over.

My take, all play. Coyote is defiantly more comfortable, Airedale might be a little unsure, but does not look like a dog in distress or trying to drive off the coyote.

I have seen actual hunting behavior, I have seen a dog with clear intent to drive off. Not seeing any of that.

I know some might jump to the "coyotes lure dogs off to their death" theory. But I am not so sure that theory is true. I have had a juvenile coyote who was not much bigger at the time than my 18 pound terrier mix, solicit play...then notice me and run off... on two occasions a couple years ago. I have a neighbor who's Lab is bigger than most coyotes run off and play with them in one of our local parks and is alive an well today.

In poking around to see if there is anything to the "coyote luring dogs" I came across this. https://coyoteyipps.com/category/coyote-luring-myth/
the explanation seems very reasonable and more realistic than coyotes luring dogs to their death with play.

When I think about the things that Raymond Coppinger, Clive D. L. Wynne, and John Bradshaw have said about the leading dog domestication theories, I can't help but wonder....are we seeing some of the same factors at play with Coyotes? Even if we are, there is no guarantee Coyotes will end up domesticated pets. BUT the factors are there...bolder individuals coming in close to human settlements for food and water. There is even an example of a human taking in a coyote as is theorize humans did with proto dogs back in the day...http://www.dailycoyote.net/

none of us will live long enough to learn how this turns out, but it is fun to think about.
Last edited by jacksdad on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

JudyN
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by JudyN » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:40 am

Unfortunately that vid can't be viewed in the UK, JD. Is it this one? http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizon ... ighborhood

They look relaxed to me. No predatory body language from the coyote, no intensity. I'd never heard the coyote luring myths - obviously it would be less of a concern in the UK - but I'd be surprised if there were any truth in it. Do any other canids do any form of luring?
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Nettle
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by Nettle » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:14 am

Frustrating not to be able to see the vid. In the 'still' it looks a benign interaction, but that is 'just a snapshot in time'.

I don't know of any instances of canids 'luring' unless trained dogs such as the duck tolling retrievers or the kooikehondjes.

I once had a female dog who danced around a (hissing spitting) fox during her first season. The fox was totally unimpressed and ran off as soon as he could. She never did it again.

Maybe that coyote had been kept as a pet at some stage. It certainly seems odd. Lots of UK urban foxes couldn't care less about dogs, until they meet the wrong one.
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jacksdad
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by jacksdad » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:17 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_GKqBqYANE

looks to be on youtube on. Try that link

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Nettle
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by Nettle » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:08 pm

Thank you, jacksdad - that is much appreciated. I've only had time to watch it once. This is what I have seen so far.

2 playbows from the coyote. Is it a juvenile? Was the film taken during summer?

Several times the dog performs displacement actions to relieve tension (probably its own). It shakes itself, breaks off to sniff around, is I suspect a female as no leg-lifting, which I would have expected. Seems to become territorial towards the mid/end of the interaction.

Coyote is careful but determined not to leave the immediate environs. Has it, I wonder, been fed here?

I'll look again tomorrow, find if I can interpret more. Meanwhile what do you folks see?
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jacksdad
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by jacksdad » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:38 pm

my understanding is this video was shot within the last week.

Erica
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by Erica » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:48 pm

jacksdad wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:18 pm
When I think about the things that Raymond Coppinger, Clive D. L. Wynne, and John Bradshaw have said about the leading dog domestication theories, I can't help but wonder....are we seeing some of the same factors at play with Coyotes? Even if we are, there is no guarantee Coyotes will end up domesticated pets. BUT the factors are there...bolder individuals coming in close to human settlements for food and water. There is even an example of a human taking in a coyote as is theorize humans did with proto dogs back in the day...http://www.dailycoyote.net/
If you haven't already read his stuff, you'd probably like Brian Hare's stuff about self-domestication. He started off in bonobos and humans but whoops! ended up looking at dogs and other non-simian species such as deer and coyotes who may now be self-domesticating. Bonus: he lives like 10 minutes from me and just down the street from my boss. ;) So when he gives a free lecture at a bar or university I can usually make it over to them.
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Nettle
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by Nettle » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:48 am

How brilliant is that, Erica! :D

I find Coppinger(s) like the curate's egg. They have not got a handle on hunting dogs at all. I do wish they had researched that aspect with people who actually know about it. I know one of them went mink-hunting once and spoke to a few people that time, but not all people who go hunting are any more knowledgeable than everyday pet owners are about dogs.

I must check out the other sources quoted. I mostly enjoyed Bradshaw though we come from different viewpoints here and there (not that one is right or one is wrong, just different experiences) and will investigate the Hare work - it sounds fascinating. I have never so far felt comfortable with theories of how dogs became domesticated, so I need to engage with as much information as is possible.

I know several people with "pet" wild animals such as deer, badgers, foxes, otters etc. but these were hand-reared orphans not voluntary companions.
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jacksdad
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Re: airedale and coyote playing

Post by jacksdad » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:19 am

I know of Brian, was not impressed with his first book. read very much like someone who put the cart before the horse in terms of actually being a dog "expert" as claimed. If you do a forum search on Dognition you can find the discussions we had here. Always willing to give a second chance as people can grow and learn. looks like he has a newer book out, will have to give that a peak. May even have to reread his first book now that I have a few years growth of my own.

Raymond isn't my personal favorite for how dogs came to be, I prefer Bradshaw and Wynne. Never heard Bradshaw speak, but I have Wynne and he is one of the highly enjoyable public speakers...which might be part of why I lean his way of Raymond. Wynne also as he is able actively travels to various parts of the world to observe dogs and wolves as part of his "where dogs came from" research. you can find some of Wynne's talks here http://www.sparcsinitiative.org/

While not an expert on all the theories, they do all seem to have some common threads.

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