Inter-male aggression

[Sanna]

I could really use some input from the wealth of knowledge that = you guys
I'm not gonna re-cap on Precious as most of you know him by now I think, and my question is also a general one; but if you need any particular info just say.

With regards to other dogs I'm having 2 different reactivity problems with P. The first is over-excitement/ arousal when he sees another dog (unless that dog COMPLETELY ignores him, i.e. not even a quick glance), which can result in lunging/ hopping/ barking. I'm sure this is due to frustration e.g. leash reactivity. It can look scary but really isn't, body language is very full on but not 'angry', I am not at all concerned that he would hurt these dogs and I am working on this and feel I know what I need to do, so just a question of slow progress I think. He will only react if he can see the dog and it's quite close (currently we're at around 2 metres 'safe' distance).

But then there is the case of un-neutered males.. I can only describe his reaction as rage, it is completely different, he does not need to see the dog- the scent or even pee will set him off. Growling, roaring, hackles up, really puckered mouth, lunging around on the lead, a couple of times he has re-directed and bitten my hand- I mean he just seems mad as hell.. Being restrained by the lead obviously does nothing to help the situation and might be a big part of the problem but I think he just might attack a dog like this if he got loose, and I'm not about to try and find out. I think there is an element of insecurity behind it though not fear as such, he is certainly a rather assertive dog and it's more like 'how dare you even exist, I'm going to f**king have you'..

Before he was neutered (just after 2 yrs old) this was just getting more and more intense and was definitely worse than it is now, in the sense that he would then lose it to the point of re-directing on to me every time and also would not be able to calm down for quite a while after. So there was some improvement in that his reaction is slightly less out of control, and he calms down again much quicker as soon as I manage to get him away. But I have not been able to get any further than that, and now he's coming up to 3 yrs old is seems it may be getting a little worse again.

So my question is, because it seems such an instinctual reaction, and I'm assuming hormonally driven behaviour, is any amount of training going to be able to counter that? Counter conditioning is difficult, as I said it's the scent; which I obviously can't smell.. Seriously, I'm at the point where I'm considering getting some 'entire' pee to train with
I don't expect him to ever be ok with some male dogs but I would really like to help him not feel the need to go completely nuts.

Second question is, what would you guys do to try and help a dog like this? All suggestions very welcome

[JudyN]

As you know, you have my sympathies

I can only go by my experience with Jasper. I'm undecided about his level of insecurity - generally he won't fly into a rage if the other dog is bigger than him, which includes muscly mastiff types, but he will with a small dog.

Jasper is coming up to 6 now, and he's far, far better than he was when he was 3, or even going on 4 years old, so there really is hope for Precious yet, though Precious does seem to react even more than Jasper (which I'm guessing is more to do with general personality rather than an increased hate of unneutered dogs, if that makes sense). He's never reacted to the scent of pee in that way. He does find some pee very interesting, but I can't tell whether it's from an unneutered male, a female in season, or whatever.

For when the dog is in sight I think it comes down to (1) manage, by keeping distance, (2) keep rewarding recall & calm behaviour even if the other dog is female and half a mile away because it won't do any harm and just may help in the long term, and (3) keep your fingers crossed that he does continue to mature. I'm not sure how you can avoid pee though... I assume he's not going to be interested in treats once he's detected it

I don't think muzzling to prevent him hurting other dogs is a good idea as at his size he could probably do a lot of damage even then, but it might be worth it to protect you when he redirects. Not just because you don't want to get bitten, but because you will be able to stay calmer when a dog gets too close for comfort. If you're thinking 'Oh sh!t, I'm going to get bitten,' he's going to sense your anxiety and may well think you're anxious about the other dog and he needs to protect you.

You're doing an incredible job with him, BTW. So many people would have given up long ago.

[Sanna]

As you know, you have my sympathies

I can only go by my experience with Jasper. I'm undecided about his level of insecurity - generally he won't fly into a rage if the other dog is bigger than him, which includes muscly mastiff types, but he will with a small dog.

Thanks P is the exact opposite, the bigger the dog the stronger the reaction.

Jasper is coming up to 6 now, and he's far, far better than he was when he was 3, or even going on 4 years old, so there really is hope for Precious yet

I sure hope so

For when the dog is in sight I think it comes down to (1) manage, by keeping distance, (2) keep rewarding recall & calm behaviour even if the other dog is female and half a mile away because it won't do any harm and just may help in the long term, and (3) keep your fingers crossed that he does continue to mature. I'm not sure how you can avoid pee though... I assume he's not going to be interested in treats once he's detected it

Yup, that's pretty much what I'm doing. It doesn't help that he's not particularly 'driven' by food or toy rewards. He is very nose driven so I try to use sniffing and tracking as rewards but obviously in that particular situation I have nothing to offer that's 'better' or even remotely distracting.
He doesn't completely lose it over pee though, just very agitated (and lots of growling at it ); so no he won't take food at the time but I can move him along and then reward once we're moving away.

I don't think muzzling to prevent him hurting other dogs is a good idea as at his size he could probably do a lot of damage even then, but it might be worth it to protect you when he redirects. Not just because you don't want to get bitten, but because you will be able to stay calmer when a dog gets too close for comfort. If you're thinking 'Oh sh!t, I'm going to get bitten,' he's going to sense your anxiety and may well think you're anxious about the other dog and he needs to protect you.

I know what you mean but I don't feel like that's necessary at the moment, thankfully he has very good bite inhibition with me now- it's more like an accidental grab so I'm not at all worried about him hurting me. I do probably tense up though, but more in preparation for keeping hold of my dog and staying on my feet.. But a muzzle wouldn't help with any of that of course.
He is on a gentle leader, which I'd love to do without and he generally walks very well on lead; but he is ridiculously powerful so I have to have some extra leverage just in case something takes me by surprise- after all we're pretty much the same weight so I need all the help I can get

You're doing an incredible job with him, BTW. So many people would have given up long ago.

Thank you Judy that's very sweet. I am pretty stubborn (one of my bad points) and once I commit to something quitting is just not an option
I'm just finding this a really tricky one, I don't have enough experience and I've not found much literature or sound advice on the subject. It also worries me as we are moving to Norway in 2 years time, where most male dogs are left entire; so if I can't change it now I will likely have a seriously reactive dog on my hands..

[JudyN]

Maybe there will be so much testosterone-laden pee in Norway he will become accustomed to it, and thus to the smell of testosterone-laden dogs... We need a fingers crossed emoticon!

I think one concern with the Gentle Leader is that the dog can injure his neck if his head is whipped round, but I can't imagine Precious's neck is too fragile

Hopefully someone else will have some advice, or at least reassurance that it will turn out OK.

[mansbestfriend]

Hi. No advice, just some thoughts. Kelly dog sounds similar on-leash but her 'radius of fear' is getting much smaller, wears either a flat collar or harness, and is mellowing with age (now 8YO) and consistent calm training, quiet walks and quieter detours, and lots of practice reading dog (and people) body language from a distance. Notably Kelly behaves quite differently when away from home and off leash, like in a neutral off-leash area (no play but no *obvious* reactions towards other dogs unless they get in her face). Have to say we're avoiding the park more these days though.

Is P a hunter? Occasionally Kelly dog gets agitated/growly/barky at certain spots in the garden where a Carpet python used to curl up in the sun. The snake is long gone (I think) but she still reacts to the same areas at times. She shows similar intense behaviour at recent scent of scurrying or scampering critters (lizards, possums, cats) and I once received a redirected bite, without injury. Not sure if her behaviour/s is connected to P's situation.

I recently read this article
https://positively.com/contributors/adv ... ggression/

[Sanna]

Thanks MBF

Is P a hunter? Occasionally Kelly dog gets agitated/growly/barky at certain spots in the garden where a Carpet python used to curl up in the sun. The snake is long gone (I think) but she still reacts to the same areas at times. She shows similar intense behaviour at recent scent of scurrying or scampering critters (lizards, possums, cats) and I once received a redirected bite, without injury. Not sure if her behaviour/s is connected to P's situation.

Not really. He enjoys tracking and chasing, but his reaction to where deer/ foxes/ even cats have been is very different (frantic sniffing, tail 'vibrating' or low wag, sometimes scratting- so not at all the same) and even if I am misinterpreting it's unlikely for these scents to be on lamp posts and street corners right?

Thanks for the link, nice little article I do think I have a relatively fair grasp of his 'general' leash reactivity, and it is improving (veeeeery slowly); guess I'm hoping someone will have some words of wisdom/ reassurance re the male-on- male problem as it is so specific and so much more intense

I'm kinda just keeping at it with counter-conditioning, management, avoidance and also just basic obedience (hoping that at least if he's really happy to respond to me in general then I'm stacking the odds in my favour he might automatically listen in an emergency) and I've just started being able to do some walking/desensitation with him using some of the more placid rescue dogs where I volunteer, which I think will help him but I'm not sure if that's enough to ever over-ride how strongly he seems to feel re entire boys?

[JudyN]

Yes, the better his recall, the more likely he is to come back - which sounds like a tautology, but I know what I mean I can usually call Jasper back now even when he's decided the other dog needs putting in his place, which wasn't possible at one time.

I assume all the boys you walk him with are neutered? If you know any calm easy-going unneutered males (with calm easy-going owners ) you might be able to do some useful desensitising which may translate into 'Hey, I don't have to kick off big time with stinky boy dogs.'

I'm sure you're doing this, but make sure you work on frustration tolerance in general, and reward him whenever he does calm down after a 'moment'. I think Jasper deliberately gets a grip of himself now - he understands 'not for you' when we see an entire male, a cat, sheep, etc. and will accept it (if on lead). It's a case of finding just one sort of exposure to entire males where Precious doesn't quite lose all his marbles so you have something to work on. Maybe this is where you start with neutered males and reward calm behaviour so he learns to self-calm, then there's more chance of it working with the entire ones.

I'm probably rambling, and thinking as I type, so take from this anything useful and ignore the repetition and rubbish

[Nettle]

Out with my friend and her 15 year old son, I saw so much of this behaviour that I had trouble keeping my face straight. Only difference was all the males he met were entire

Honestly - you are doing a GREAT job. He cannot be worse than this otherwise very nice boy who is convinced that everyone is looking at him

[Ari_RR]

And in addition to everything above, I would practice passing other dogs safely.
I get what you are saying about his head collar and him being more powerful than you are, which he certainly is at the same weight but with much lower center of gravity and 4 legs.

We are on the other side here, Ari is an intact male with the attitude, so when someone neutered gives him a dirty look - the street thug in him wakes up right away and is ready to engage and settle things

So, we are constantly working on passing other dogs, even when the other dog is on-leash straining and snarling and lunging, and the owner can't maintain dog-human-human-dog arrangement. I keep him Ari on the outside, so at least there is me between them, and I prevent Ari from getting closer to the other dog not via leash but by blocking him... He tries to get closer to the other dog by crossing in front of me - I step in front of him, at the same time moving as fast as possible, so it's a bit of a dance but it only takes a few seconds to get to they safe distance again...

[Sanna]

Out with my friend and her 15 year old son, I saw so much of this behaviour that I had trouble keeping my face straight. Only difference was all the males he met were entire

Honestly - you are doing a GREAT job. He cannot be worse than this otherwise very nice boy who is convinced that everyone is looking at him

thanks Nettle that means a lot. I hear you. But then again, does this nice boy shout and swear and try to bite his mammy when she tells him not to punch other boys..?

And in addition to everything above, I would practice passing other dogs safely.
I get what you are saying about his head collar and him being more powerful than you are, which he certainly is at the same weight but with much lower center of gravity and 4 legs.

We are on the other side here, Ari is an intact male with the attitude, so when someone neutered gives him a dirty look - the street thug in him wakes up right away and is ready to engage and settle things

So, we are constantly working on passing other dogs, even when the other dog is on-leash straining and snarling and lunging, and the owner can't maintain dog-human-human-dog arrangement. I keep him Ari on the outside, so at least there is me between them, and I prevent Ari from getting closer to the other dog not via leash but by blocking him... He tries to get closer to the other dog by crossing in front of me - I step in front of him, at the same time moving as fast as possible, so it's a bit of a dance but it only takes a few seconds to get to they safe distance again...

Yes definitely important, I have to use a different tactic with P though- blocking him actually makes the problem worse..I only realised this not too long ago, after all you're always told to put yourself between your dog and whatever you're passing but in our case that just makes things worse and applies to joggers, cyclists etc as well- if P is on the inside so closest to whatever we are passing he will walk past no problem whatsoever (with dogs we also have to maintain a certain distance of course) but if he's on the outside so I am 'in the way' he is pretty much guaranteed to lunge. A form of barrier frustration I suppose?
I would like to be able to have him either side of me but for the moment I let him be on the inside, whatever works right

[JudyN]

if P is on the inside so closest to whatever we are passing he will walk past no problem whatsoever (with dogs we also have to maintain a certain distance of course) but if he's on the outside so I am 'in the way' he is pretty much guaranteed to lunge. A form of barrier frustration I suppose?
I would like to be able to have him either side of me but for the moment I let him be on the inside, whatever works right

I also find it easier to have Jasper closer to the trigger. If I have a firm hold on a short lead, if he tries to get nearer to it, he will be held tighter (he's not a great lunger/puller so I don't need a lot of strength, which is just as well). If he's on the far side, then trying to move closer to the trigger will make the lead slacker, and he can gain a bit of momentum (and probably trip me up as he tries to move across me).

[Nettle]

I agree do what works for you and your dogs - but how are you holding the leads? The way I do it, the dog has no choice but to stay at heel on the far side. Supposing trigger is on the right side - lead goes from collar to left hand, across my body to right hand. And I have almost no use in right arm - yet I can still hold a big dog that wants to lunge.

It is vital to hold the lead so that the back of your hand is uppermost and your thumb points towards you. This is how horse riders hold reins, and gives a very strong hand. So many people hold the lead the weak way, palm up with the thumb pointing towards the dog. You've got little chance if that's the way you are holding it - small changes make big differences.