Chief bit me!!

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ckranz
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by ckranz »

NILF I would not call abusive but it can certainly be unfair and unjust to your dog. A lot of time we have the wrong expectations and understand of what our dogs truly understand. For instance we often assume since our dog sits on command in our home that they will sit on command at the dog park. The expectation is unfair because of the environment. A dog will typically feel safe in their home and have no real distractions in terms of smells, fast movement from other dogs, kids, noise etc...

I remember a trainer once said when laying out a training task that if your dog fails 3 times in a row its become a habit for your dog. Whether or not this is true is perhaps unknown, but the point she was making if perfectly valid.

The first failure is a dog not understanding the task, the second is the handlers failure to break the task down to something simpler the dog can perform. The third the undesirable behavior begins to become habituated as you are allowing the dog to practice the undesired behavior.

Good solid training build on a platform of success which means that first you build a foundation and then each task slowly builds in complexity focusing on 1 distraction or a little more duration or a little more distance at a time until mastered.

To with hold food and water or potty privileges until your dog figures out when he may have no idea of what he needs to do is quite unfair as the expectation is asking something your dog does not understand. To do so for a treat as in playing 101 things is fine and called free shaping....to do so with meals or water can be borderline cruel.
guineapigs05
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:48 pm

Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by guineapigs05 »

ckranz wrote:NILF I would not call abusive but it can certainly be unfair and unjust to your dog. A lot of time we have the wrong expectations and understand of what our dogs truly understand. For instance we often assume since our dog sits on command in our home that they will sit on command at the dog park. The expectation is unfair because of the environment. A dog will typically feel safe in their home and have no real distractions in terms of smells, fast movement from other dogs, kids, noise etc...

I remember a trainer once said when laying out a training task that if your dog fails 3 times in a row its become a habit for your dog. Whether or not this is true is perhaps unknown, but the point she was making if perfectly valid.

The first failure is a dog not understanding the task, the second is the handlers failure to break the task down to something simpler the dog can perform. The third the undesirable behavior begins to become habituated as you are allowing the dog to practice the undesired behavior.

Good solid training build on a platform of success which means that first you build a foundation and then each task slowly builds in complexity focusing on 1 distraction or a little more duration or a little more distance at a time until mastered.

To with hold food and water or potty privileges until your dog figures out when he may have no idea of what he needs to do is quite unfair as the expectation is asking something your dog does not understand. To do so for a treat as in playing 101 things is fine and called free shaping....to do so with meals or water can be borderline cruel.
That's why it a good idea to work up to training to areas with distraction little at a time so the dog will listen in all areas. I did this and works very well.

Not sure I agree with failing 3 times becomes a habit. I have proved that wrong, but an interesting thought. Defiantly agree with the first failure being the dog not understanding and owner not breaking it up or going slow enough for the dog. I would never do it with water but food yes he has to sit and wait, but now been hand feeding him and will be doing what Victora Stilwell did in the food guarding video with ben
jacksdad
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by jacksdad »

guineapigs05 wrote:An interesting read, but personally I think its ridiculous to say that nilf is abusive.
NILIF absolutely can become abusive. You don't have to hit your dog to be abusive, even if your intentions are 100% trying to do the right thing strictly following a NILIF protocal that is based on incorrect understanding of a dog's needs and behavior can turn abusive because you end up depriving a social animal of their basic needs unless they "jump through some hoop" first.

The BIG problem with NILIF is often the narrative that goes along with it. The why you dog is doing something and the why/how you should respond to whatever it is your dog was doing. To date I have run across FAR more wrong and baseless explanations for what a dog is doing than correct ones, particularly in the context of NILIF.

NOT everything in the dogs life needs to be earned. a healthy relationship is full of free things. And dogs being a social animal NEED free "stuff" in it's life, including from us. NOT all quests for attention, to play, to go on a walk, to go to the bathroom, to eat their daily needs of nutrition should be acquired ONLY through earning. Basic life needs should be free. That would includes having nutritional needs met, the ability to relieve and empty their bladder and bowls, basic exercise and even social enter actions.

There is a HUGE difference between expecting your dog to sit to get attention verse jumping on you and ONLY EVER giving your dog attention when you decide it is time AND after the dog "earns" it. Or expecting your dog to not jump all over you as put down it's food bowl, but rather sit calmly while you place it on the ground and step back verse having to do some absurd task their basic ration.

Now you maybe saying...."well that is all I want, and isn't that what NILIF is about". If it was...I would be it's #1 fan. But NILIF isn't just about good manners, and teaching your dog what is expected, and how to get along in the human world etc. Again, the issue with NILIF is it's explanations, reasoning, and the tone it sets for the relationship between dog and human.

giving your dog "free" stuff/attention does not create problems...provided you are teaching your dog what it needs to know to co exist with you and other humans.
guineapigs05
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by guineapigs05 »

I just bought a gentle leader yesterday. I have had a sensation harness for Chief since I got him and its helped a lot but he still pulls. I want to walk him more so I thought we will try it. I don't really like the look because it looks like a muzzle and might make people think he's aggressive when he's not.

But WOW I walked him twice yesterday 2 quick walks and I am so surprised with it it walks very well on it. Though he's not very fond of it yet he will grow to like it. I have to keep adjusting it may take a bit to find the perfect adjustment, but the real her test was when a neighbor came out with his dog that the dog doesn't like Chief so Chief don't like it. Its the same breed of dog Chief got attacked by and the owner has 0 control over it. Well they came out of their house. I let him know I had Chief so he went a different way, but the other dog saw chief and started going nuts. I pulled for chief to back up and he backed up and sat down no noise just waited calmly!
JudyN
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by JudyN »

I'm in two minds about the Gentle Leader. On the negative side, it is 'aversive' in that the dog isn't developing 'self-control', but is being controlled by it. Also, if the dog does lunge while wearing it, it could damage his neck.

On the other hand, I did use one with Jasper when he was much younger and after a short time, when I stopped using it, he walked much better on lead. So if you do use one, make sure that when Chief stops pulling against it and goes back to walking nicely, he gets loads of praise - that should translate to him walking well when not using the GL.

Other more experienced trainers here may advise you not to use it at all, though.

As for it making people think he's aggressive - let them think what they like. If you're lucky, it'll mean they try to keep their dogs away from him, which is a bonus :wink:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
jacksdad
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by jacksdad »

I tend to view the gentle leader much like Judy apparently does.

Gentle leader is a training tool meant to assist in training. it creates an opening for training to happen or assists in achieving your goal. but by it's self will not address pulling or teach your dog where/how to walk with a human.

If you don't combine some training to help your dog know what is expected, then with in a short amount of time you will be right back where you were pre gentle leader. the goal is to NOT have to use the gentle leader once training is complete.

nothing wrong with using a gentle leader, but don't forget to also train your dog.
guineapigs05
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by guineapigs05 »

Received the book Mine by Jean Donaldson today reading away. I like it so far.
jacksdad
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by jacksdad »

good book.

Mine focuses on dog to human more, and fight (jean's other book) focuses more on dog to dog.

made a good choice in books.
gwd
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by gwd »

JudyN wrote:On the other hand, I did use one with Jasper when he was much younger and after a short time, when I stopped using it, he walked much better on lead.
I've used one myself.

This forum is often a place where people seek out help for extreme issues. Dogs like people can be pegged at far ends of a spectrum. There was a time when I would look at a dog straining on the end of the leash and make assumptions about the level of training or commitment the owner had to teaching manners. Mind you, I'm not an inexperienced dog person.........I've trained many, many dogs and put advanced performance and conformation degrees on over 25 dogs. I was arrogant.

Then I got my male Springer. He is a serial puller. Walking him can make a person feel like the sledge in a weight pull competition. Mind you, this is a dog that has a fabulous off and on lead heel......... he's perfect in almost every way. I can leave a roast beef sandwich on the coffee table and it will be un-pilfered, he does every obedience move with lightning speed. He vibrates around the edges at the start line of an agility run and will run the entire course at his top speed........... and yet, I can't seem to train away the leash pulling. God knows I've tried. So far, the only way that has worked for me is to drive to a park, wear him out a bit with the Frisbee.......... and then he'll walk like a gentleman. Straight out of the house he views me as an anchor and an impediment to getting to the next sniff or next bush as fast as he can. I can put him on a heel but then the walk is not an enjoyable stroll, it's obedience training.

The point of my story is that all dogs are different. An issue that, for others seems an easy fix if you but follow this simple 12 step plan, might well be a much bigger issue for others and the enormity might not translate well via a written post.

I guess your boy is a perfect example............. unless you'd lived with, and experienced jasper's quirks, you might well not believe how challenging he was if you were just reading someone else's tale of woe. You understand because you lived it!
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Ari_RR
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by Ari_RR »

Gentle leader.. I can't stand it. Never use it.

On the other other hand, my tiny mom (an old lady, really) would not even think of taking our 100+ lbs monster hound on a walk in our deer-infested neighborhood without it. With GL, however, she manages to keep him under total control.

I guess - yeah, dogs differ, and so do people. I've accepted... No point in arguing with an old lady who is an Anti-NILIF activist and firmly believes that poor dogs suffer enough just by having to live with humans,and therefore everything else should be free for them. :roll: Ari totally supports her views :lol:
ckranz
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by ckranz »

I'm not a big fan of gentle leaders as well as the three dogs I have tried one with were more leash aggressive towards other dogs with it than without it. I used a sensi-harness and for all 3 dogs they walk well with it on. Without the harness only 2 of my 3 walk nicely. Apollo sounds a lot like Jasper.....I always tell myself being performance oriented that "Pulling builds Drive".

Being performance oriented also has given me a much different perspective on overall training. No matter what you are doing with your dog...agility, obedience, tracking, nose work, flyball, lure coursing, rally, herding, weight pull, carting, Therapy work, just being a pet and the other numerous activities I have failed to mention your contract with your dog is a partnership. There is no dominant side and neither of you can function as well without the other in each of the above activities. Its like a dance. You and your partner are both necessary. One of you may take a leadership role (usually the person with dogs) to direct movement, to start and to stop, engage or disengage. I find that training programs like NILIF work against that philosophy creating a 2 tier level with the person on top and dogs on the bottom. Besides I get free things in life so my dog should too.

The best method I have found for teaching dogs to walk on a loose lead is found in this dvd set. The exercise called the "Canine Waltz"

http://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Traini ... B0035505ZC

There are lots of great individual exercises in here that emphasize development of a partnership.
mansbestfriend
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by mansbestfriend »

Hi. So how's Chief going now? :)
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single Sit.
guineapigs05
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:48 pm

Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by guineapigs05 »

The other day I was on my laptop sitting in the chair and Chief went and got a toy and dropped it in my lap. We have also been playing a game I hand him the toy and he drops it and gets a treat. I also took him outside with Macy dads golden I threw his Kong tennis ball its really big so he can eat it he ran and got it brought it to me got his treat and took off to play with Macy. Is that good that he didn't stay wasn't sure what to really make of that
JudyN
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by JudyN »

It sounds good to me - why did you expect him to stay after you gave him the treat?

I love it when Jasper gives me things, even if they're unasked for, like a sock he's found somewhere. If you have a dog who can be at all guardy, it's far safer to ask him to bring what he has to you than to go to him and ask him to drop it - if he won't bring it to you, you know that he might be feeling a little possessive without having just stuck your hand right up close to him.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Swanny1790
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Re: Chief bit me!!

Post by Swanny1790 »

Back to the original post, Victoria Stillwell shared this article on her FB page, and I thought it might be applicable in Chief's case. It's certainly worth considering.

http://positively.com/contributors/the-perfect-storm/
"Once infected with the mushing virus, there is no cure. There is only trail." - Sven Engholm
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