Opinions? Early neutering

[Noobs]

My friends bought a puppy from what looked to me like a reputable breeder (health guarantees, papers, etc.). It's a cavapoo and they haven't brought him home yet. He was born in mid-August and has a hernia. They told my friend the farm would cover the cost of the surgery - and while they're at it, they would neuter him as well at their cost. Eight weeks old! Apparently they told my friend it would be better for the dog because then he would only be going through surgery once.

I guess after being on this board for a while I am in a mind-set that neutering this early is just plain bad. Also I've thought about it, and I know that here in the US the focus is on population control. But you know what, even if Murphy wasn't neutered... he's an apartment dog with no access to the outside unattended and zero chance of escape unless, oh, I don't know, I get run over by a car and he runs off. And even then, in a big city there aren't really many loose dogs running about.

Anyway I am just flabbergasted that the breeder suggested this and it sounds like my friends thought there wasn't another option.

Ugh, anyway I guess I'm just ranting and I can't stop it anyway. But I welcome any opinions as to how bad it is to get a pup neutered so unbelievably early.

[runlikethewind]

What do they say to you when you try to tell them its too early? Does he have to have it done due to the hernia?

[runlikethewind]

Ok listen up.. it can be defered until 6 months of age.. as they can clear up spontaneously!

http://www.midcapeanimalhospital.com/sh ... &Private=0

[runlikethewind]

Looks like is also depends on the severity of the umbilical hernia..

They can get the hernia fixed but not get his neutered so young.. It is so silly to neuter so young

http://ask.metafilter.com/83767/Should- ... cal-hernia

[Nettle]

I come across this so often, I am past being horrified You all know where I am on early neutering, so I won't be boring and go over the same ground again.

As for the hernia, it does no harm to wait unless it is very very bad indeed, in which case your friends were rooked and should get a refund on this amazingly expensive mongrel.

I had a b itch with an umbilical hernia, and after discussion with my vet, we left it. She bred one litter and worked hard for eight years, died at twelve, never had a moment's bother from it. Of course often a repair IS necessary, but it is much safer with an older pup than a tiny creature of eight weeks.

[Mattie]

Gracie came with a hernia, my vets looked at it and said wait and see what happens, Gracie was 13 years old and still had it when she was pts at 17.5 years old. It depends on the hernia

As to early neutering, I am with Nettle, in fact Dolly hasn't been spayed yet, she is about 18 months old now and has been booked in to be done on 5th November 3 months after her season.

[emmabeth]

No no no no no...

Firstly - I don't think this sounds like a reputable breeder. This to me sounds like one of the better end of puppy farmers.

They are breeding for money - it is a business. As such it is in their interests to have this hernia fixed and neuter the puppy before he goes to the new owners, as then there is no chance of the hernia causing a problem and the new owners taking legal action. Neutering the pup before it goes of course also means the new owner cannot breed themselves, which keeps the market controlled for such breeders.

The reason I say this is, they are breeding a crossbreed and charging pedigree prices. I find that price (which is about the average price of a high quality pedigree pup in the uk) is justified WHEN the breeder shows their dogs or otherwise involves themself in some activity that proves the animals quality, opens their animals and thus their breeding lines up to constructive critiscism from others within the breed, and is basically breeding to improve the breed, thus putting their all into each adn every litter.

When someone just puts a pedigree cavalier to a pedigree bichon frise, they have done NONE of this, they are looking at the end product - puppies = money.

So whilst I realise you'd probably be talking to a brick wall, I would advise them to walk away from this, and IF they must buy a pup, buy a real breed from a reputable breeder who is breeding for the right reasons. That person will show or compete or work their animals, (preferably more than one of those things) and will probably NOT own both parents (using the stud dog you own is often, though not always!!, a bad sign!).

[***Melissa***]

...and will probably NOT own both parents (using the stud dog you own is often, though not always!!, a bad sign!).

I'm just curious - why is that usually a bad sign?

[Shellie]

Almost every dog I and my two sister's have ever owned (and between the three of us,that's quite a few dogs over the years), all have been neutered/spayed around 6 months of age. None of us have had behavior issues with any of these dogs (a fairly balanced mix of males and females) beyond some normal puppy stuff they eventually outgrew. They were just happy, well-adjusted dogs that were a joy to own. In fact, the only dog among us that had real behavioral issues was an adorable little Pom that my sister rescued as an adult dog. Maggie came to her as a spayed adult and we have no idea at what age the procedure was done, so I can't say in her case how pertinant it was to her issues.

After reading all the reasons on this forum for delaying neutering/spaying, I can see the wisdom and would even heed and advocate this advice to others in the future simply because it seems to make some good general sense to me. But I think it's also important to note that neutering/spaying early doesn't guarantee trouble down the line as I've seen stated on some other threads here. I guess it's all about playing the odds and it would seem in my family we've been unusually lucky. But I would always want to put the odds in my dogs favor for the happiest future I can give them. So if I ever get another puppy, it will now wait a bit longer for its snip snip.

[Mattie]

Early neutering doesn't guarentee problems Shellie, it makes problems more likely, there are lots of factors with everything not just one. You may not have had any problems because of how you handle, train and interact with your dogs, other dogs are not as lucky. I doubt that Gracie would have reached the grand old age of 17.5 years old if she didn't have a puppy mentality, even at that age she was always with my 2 youngsters and joining with their games, she ignored the others unless she wanted to curl up and sleep with one of them.

There are bitches that never have a season or only have one every few years, should we put these dogs through major, invasive surgery when it may not be necessary? Spaying a ***** is like a historectormy for us, it takes us months to get over this, dogs do recover quicker than us.

[Noobs]

To add to what Mattie said, I always got the impression that the vocal majority on this forum feel that neutering as a "solution" to behavior/fear issues is what is unadvisable; not neutering, period.

As to my original post...

Well I am sure Mattie, Nettle, and Emmabeth, all your first replies are correct. Apparently my friend didn't actually pay over $1000 on the puppy, but that was the price I saw listed on their site. They "got a deal," which now leads me to think this farm inflates their prices and then gives everyone "deals." I am so upset about this neutering thing and about how the breeder handled this.

This is a whole other topic, but I feel that getting Murphy with issues forced me to be a dog-geek. And my friends, many of whom have had dogs "all their lives" now lead with iron fists and try to be pack leaders and looooove dogs so want to pick up the little ones and hug and pet the big ones even when I can see the dogs are protesting... And I can see their dogs also have issues that may not be harmful to people and other dogs (ie fearful, reactive, etc.) but their dogs spin in circles because they're understimulated, whine and herd the cats because they don't get to satisfy that natural instinct elsewhere, jump on people and get yelled at rather than ignored, the little one shows lots of calming signals when people try to pick him up but he gets ignored and escalates to air snapping and the DOG gets yelled at, not the person insisting on picking him up... etc. etc. etc., and I can't really say anything because I've own my dog a grand total of 2.5 years versus their decades of dog ownership, so what could I possibly know? *sigh* Okay, rant over.

Thanks for all your input. I guess I knew I couldn't really stop it; I just wanted reassurance that I'm not being overly dramatic.

[ladybug1802]

This is a whole other topic, but I feel that getting Murphy with issues forced me to be a dog-geek. .

Totally agree!! I have learnt SO much in the past year, all due to what issues my boy has (which are not insurmountable at all)....so I owe him SO much! I have learnt loads on dog behaviour, body language, the good and bad ways people deal with things......I am so much better equipped now. People who buy pedigree pups or have dogs that have no issues, are often the worst owners.....not intentionally, but because they havent experienced the situations that a lot of us on here have learnt from!

If I am honest, when I got Dylan I had absolutely no idea there were any possibly issues with the age of neutering.....if I had I would have probably asked the rescue centre not to neuter him and said I would have got it done when he was older.....but I will never know if that would have made any difference.

[Mattie]

I can't really say anything because I've own my dog a grand total of 2.5 years versus their decades of dog ownership, so what could I possibly know? *sigh* Okay, rant over.

You can say something, a lot depends on how you say it, something on the lines of how far dog training has come in the past 5/6 years and how things have changed etc. Pick things you know they won't know about and ask them how to do it etc. I have got through to many people by pretending to be ignorant, this gets them talking about things and I can get information across as if I have just recently read something etc.

[Noobs]

Great suggestion, Mattie. I will definitely try that should something come up. I did try at a party over the weekend when we were discussing the early neutering (the friends who had the pup neutered weren't there). I started to say that having a dog with issues forced me to get as much info as I could, but you know how it is, even in a room full of dog lovers, conversations go from here to there with no transitions, so I never got my thoughts out. But I will try. I will get through to my friends. I will! Haha.

[Mattie]

Don't forget you have Murphy as a model, you can talk about how bad he was when you got him and how changed he is now, you have every reason to be proud of your achievement so use it. You should be used to thinking outside the box now, you just need to practice it with humans.