When to neuter?

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Oakman
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When to neuter?

Post by Oakman »

As an old man, I've had many dogs throughout my life, mostly Labs and Lab mixes, and most of them were neutered. My current dog is a 4-year-old Lab/Coon Hound. Our vet recommended he be neutered at 8 months old, and so he was. I've since read that some vets recommend waiting to neuter large breed dogs that are susceptible to hip dysplasia, like Labs, until they are closer to 2 years old. Other reasons to wait include increased chances of some cancers. Our last dog suffered from hip dysplasia beginning at about 10 years of age, although he did live to about 13. He too was neutered at less than a year old.

Needless to say, I am feeling remorse about neutering my current dog at such an early age since I wouldn't mind waiting a couple years to do so.

What say ye?
Fundog
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Fundog »

I say don't beat yourself up about it. What's done is done, and you can't go back to the past and un-neuter him. :) Have you been seeing any sort of behavior/health issues in your current dog that you suspect may be related to neutering? If so, please describe it here, and we'll see what we can do to help you. Seriously: don't beat yourself up about it, as there is nothing you can do to help him grow a new set. :wink: Just do the best you can with what you know, and enjoy life with your dog for as long as you are blessed enough to have him. 8)
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
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Nettle
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Nettle »

Don't beat yourself up about it: what's done is done, and he might well be fine. Keeping him lean and fit will help him.

For your next dog, I'd suggest you wait until he is fully grown mentally and physically, which is round about 2 years old for most breeds.

Would you have some photos of your dog? We love "meeting" other Board user's dogs :D
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ladybug1802
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by ladybug1802 »

You know - I have been wondering if neutering hasnt helped Dylan either....he was a rescue and when I got him in November we now reckon he was probably between 8 and 10 months old. The rescue centre had him down as being between 2 and 3, but there was just no way he was this age. SO I had to take him back to be neutered a week after I got him - it was part of their conditions.

Could neutering early contribute to behaviour issues - like the nervous aggression thing?
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***Melissa***
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by ***Melissa*** »

Oakman - I agree with the others. Beating yourself up won't do any good. My Striker was neutered when he was about 11 months old - I thought I was doing the right thing, I didn't know any better at the time. But this is how we learn, and with our next dogs we'll know what to do :D

Ladybug - Unfortunatelly early neutering can have a negative effect on behaviour. Nettles knows alot about this, but what it basically comes down to is that a dog's hormones has not yet fully developed untill adulthood, and when neutering / spaying before that, you might end up with a dog with issues (whether they be fear, anxiousness, not maturing, etc). When a dog is fully grown, AND all behaviour issues is sorted - then is the right time to spay or neuture if you still want to.

There's a thread here somewhere where Nettle explained it really well, but I can't seem to find it right now.
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

I think it was Nettle who put this up about neutering http://www.sheltieranch.com/articles/Lo ... InDogs.pdf I found it really good.

I did once try and find sites that gave the pros and cons of neutering, there are hardly any, most just give the good sides of them and ignore the bad. Owners should know both sides before making the decision to neuter or not, how can they make the right decision for the dog if they can't find out all the facts.

The rescue I got Tilly from wanted her spayed at 6 months, I did talk to them about it but also made it clear in a round about way that Tilly was going to have her first season before being spayed so they agreed :lol:

When I got Dolly I took her to the vet for a check-up, the vet suggested she was spayed asap which I refused, told her that all my bitches have a season first and so would Dolly as I didn't know if she had already had one. The vet agreed this was the best way to go, owners and vets have now been brainwashed into neutering early, some are now done at 12 weeks old then the rescues wonder why they come back with behaviour problems. :evil:
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Oakman
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Oakman »

Appreciate the responses and glad to hear that the dogma of early neutering (and spaying) is seeing increased debate. I was aware of possible negative (and positive) behaviors associated with such procedures, but have never experienced any insurmountable problems in my previous dogs.

Didn't mean to sound like I was eaten up with guilt about having my best friend neutered early; what's done is done. However I am disappointed that my vet didn't offer the cons of early neutering so that I could have made a more informed decision myself. Perhaps vasectomies would be a better option for some dogs.
josie1918
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by josie1918 »

Oakman, do you by any chance remember where you receied the information regarding harm to dogs from neutering?
Thanks.
Duffy Jones
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Duffy Jones »

there have been recent studies ( I will look for the articles) that suggest that early neutering/spaying does not allow enough hormone to form that helps growth plates to close. Failure of the growth plates to close causes the dogs to become to tall and therefore put more stress on joints and ligaments especially the ACL in dogs. Many are suggesting to wait until growth plates are close around 9 month to 1.5 years depending on breed before surgery. However, this is controversial and also works against shelters who want everything fixed before they are adopted. Shelters are looking at controlling over population which make sense for early spay and neuter

As from a purely procedural aspect, spaying a young dog is much easier then spaying a larger older dog. We do see more complications in spaying the 3 year old 100 lb dog then we do with younger dogs. Neutering is not such a big deal.

It will be an interesting debate over the next few years.

duf
Duffy Jones, DVM
Peachtree Hills Animal Hospital
[email protected]
www.peachtreehillsvet.com
josie1918
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by josie1918 »

Thank you Dr. Jones, this is pretty much what I have been reading as well.
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Nettle
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Nettle »

My vet agrees that early surgery is much easier to do for the vet. He also thinks that later surgery is better for the dog.

It might not be a big deal at the time it is being performed on the table, but it is one helluva big deal behaviourally. It will be good to get more vets on board with this in the future. :D
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josie1918
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by josie1918 »

Customarily, in the U.S., when our behaviorlists start deeming it an issue, and the studies come down from them, then the veterinarians ususally follow suit. So far as I know, and can tell, we havent seen any definative proof yet, so it is just a theory that some people and a few vets have. There are always debates going on of some sort, there are as many different opinons as there are people.
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Nettle
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Nettle »

Quite so, but "theory" based on experience, sometimes many years of it, eventually has to be given credibility. What sort of proof is better than experience in the field? Nothing in a laboratory setting is going to replicate that, no matter how beautifully set out complete with Harvard referencing.

The problem is that, to have equal credibility, science would have to cover many dogs, and the observations would need to be made on whole litters over several years in a domestic setting. Those domestic settings would have to be as near alike as possible. That's a hard call. Most of all it is very expensive. Morally, it is difficult because you are creating dogs with a tricky future after the experiment ends.

Veterinary science is only just catching up with the physical hazards of neutering before dogs are mature - even though there are centuries of examples of the physical effects of neutering, at least with males, from farm animals to racehorses to the court eunuchs.

In terms of behaviour, dogs are only just being allowed to be credited with minds of their own, and training is only just out of the "hit it with a stick until it complies" mindset. Yet every medical/veterinary student knows the effects of hormones on mind and body - all we need is to apply that knowledge along with what we observe. Behaviourists can be of untold value in such research, as long as their knowledge is given the respect it deserves.
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josie1918
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by josie1918 »

Ok,so I have never had any bad experiences health or behavior wise with my dogs, and there have been many, mostly dachshunds and German shepherds. I have never had reason to fear for my life from any of our steers or geldings, but the bulls and stallions are quite another matter. So I guess my experience would say neuter and spay PLEASE. That is why I personally do not consider this a medical issue, but rather would prefer to let our canine behaviorlists attest to the credibility of these claims and do the studies they need to reach a conclusion. My ears as well as those of everyone I personally know in the veterinary field are always open to the findings of qualified behaviorlists.
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Mattie
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Re: When to neuter?

Post by Mattie »

Gracie was spayed before her first season, she stayed a pup mentally, never matured, this puppy behaviour was still there when she had a stroke and had to be pts at 17.5 years old.

Only now are trainers and behaviourists starting to ask how old was the dog when neutered because many problems seem to be with dogs that were neutered early, most are fear problems. Gracie wanted to kill every dog she saw when I first got her, including my dogs, she was so frightened of other dogs. It took me 3 months to get her to live happily with Joe, they then became the best of friends.

I have friends whose dogs were neutered early, everyone has fear problems, some are improving. I had Joe neutered at 10 months old, I just wish I had the knowledge I have now then, Joe's fears got so much worse and he spent his life being frightened of many things.

I can remember in the 50s the message was starting to get out about smoking causing cancer, many said there was no proof and wouldn't give them up until their was proof, most were dead by the time it was able to be proved, think it was in the 70s when they finally got the proof.

Josie, you are in an ideal position to see the dogs, you will recognise those that are frightened of most things and those that are confident, you will also know which were neutered early and which were not. It would be very interesting to see what you could find out. Maybe keep a dairy.

I don't go out very often to see dogs but each time I have gone the dog was neutered early.
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