Itchy Skin

[emmabeth]

Are the spots really really bothering her, because they dont look particular inflamed or annoying...

I think I would do as Nettle says.... ignore, they will go away.

As said, we all have demodex, its possible, i guess, at an outside chance that her immune system is having a bit of a 'rejig' (get me with my science speak ) as a result of the raw food, a sort of detox if you will... and shes getting rid of toxins through her skin.... which might give the demodex a bit of a head start for a few weeks but shes a robust, healthy pup living in a clean healthy environment on the best food with little stress and plenty of TLC...

As such she really is the LEAST likely to be suffering with serious demodectic mange - the dogs you will see with this are feral dogs struggling to survive, neglected pets in filthy environments again struggling to survive, young bitches without enough food trying to keep a litter of puppies alive...

Basically when the immune system gets really low then the demodex becomes a problem, the balance is lost and the dog starts to suffer.

Ditto Nettles thoughts on organophosphates, these are SERIOUSLY nasty stuff and I doubt I would use them on a dog with a real, serious case of demodectic mange (as likely the chemicals would finish the dog off before the mange did!).

I would keep an eye on things... and do nothing more. Its more likely some bug hopped on, bit her a couple of times and hopped off again tbh!

[***Melissa***]

I just typed a really long post, but it disapeared

Mattie:
Note to self...not normal to take temp every time (I realised I have no idea what to expect from a vet...my only experience was with the 'not-so good' vet, and now I thought OH WOW, this is the way to go. Now I still don't know)

I'll remember the TTouch movement - I have heard that stroking his / her ears help with calming, but I didn't know there was a certain way to do it...making mentol note.

Nettle:
I wanted to dip her yesterday, but our block's water was off (probably a water pipe that burst or something) and by the time we had water again it was fairly late and I was afraid it'll be too cold. So I thought I'd dip her tonight, now I'm thinking...not gonna happen

Now that you mention it, I remember one of the students smelling the spots, and I thought WTF?

The prob is, the spots are getting bigger and bigger, and it doesn't seem the aloe is helping.

I googled demodex canis yesterday, and this is what I've found http://www.petplace.com/dogs/demodicosi ... page1.aspx Now I'm afraid it will go from localised to generalised Okay I think I'M PARANOID But if it's not demodex then I don't have to worry about that.

Thanx for NOT recommending anything
I actually have lavender oil at home
I put on some Tea Tree oil last night...not sure if that was okay to do, I just wanted to relief the itching.

But it doesn't look like demodex to me.

What does it look like? (PM me if you think it's necessary)

The dip:
I think the dip's name is Amitraz, or something like that. I have no idea as to what the ingredients are, b/c they have a huge can and then just put some in a bottle with a sticker saying the name and directions for use. So is organophosphates the name or an ingredient?
All I know is that she said it's not necessary to dip Striker too, but I can if I want to, b/c the dip also helps with ticks (there's a lot of ticks in our area, and tick bite fever is very common - in humans and dogs). But for ticks I use something called "horse fly" that is part of the Aloe Ferox range. It's for dogs and cats and helps with ticks and fleas. It's 100% natural, so I do prefer to use that. Other than that, I don't know anything about the dip.

Emms:
In the last two days the spots did get quite a lot bigger, and she's scratching more and more. (They are bigger now than they were in the photo's) I think the redness is due to her scratching. I wish I could take it away from her and put it on myself, I'll deal with the itching and what not. I just don't want her to suffer.



Thanx for all your help & support & replies It mean so much to me.
I feel a lot better now, the only thing that's worrying me it that it's getting worse

I'm still taking her (and Striker) to that OTHER vet (the one in another town) for full check ups next weekend, so it's still a little more that a week to go.

[Nettle]

I'm inclined to agree with Emmmabeth that the dog is cleansing through her skin, but as I haven't seen the spots (or smelt them, felt them or any other thing) you can't beat the opinion of someone on the -erm - spot. The spots may well be bigger and more itchy because they have been scraped.

Things to bear in mind:

If you are advised to use stuff on your dog that requires you to wear protective clothing, or to keep away from your dog for a spell after use - research before you decide
You do not have to give your dog anything you feel uneasy about
You do not have to make your mind up right there in the surgery - thinking time is allowed
You are entitled to ask about any treatment
It is always best to have a proper diagnosis before any treatment
They are only itchy spots

[***Melissa***]

Thanx Nettle, I won't be using the dip
I'm glad that I posted it here first AND didn't (couldn't) dip her yesterday!!

[Duffy Jones]

A couple of things. Sorry the exam was traumatic to both you and your dog. I always take a temperature on each and every patient that I see. I do it for a couple of reasons.

1. To see if the temperature is elevated which will make me look for a cause of the fever which might help in looking for disease
2. If they are there for vaccinations, I do not vaccinate pets with elevated temps because something else may be going on.

Yes demodex can be the underlying cause for many types of skin lesions. Some dogs have trouble with controlling these mites on their skin and they cause irritation, redness, and itchiness. You can treat the skin redness and itchiness but if you do not treat the mite then it will come back. I have treated many dogs that had been treated chronically for allergies and I rescraped them and found some mites. We treated the mites and everything got better.

For local spots you can use some cream to control it. I use goodwinol. For larger spots or spots that are not improving I use ivermectin orally. I do not use the dips because Mitban dips can cause some toxicities and it is also very difficult to do correctly. The oral ivermectin works very well and we monitor the dosage. I do not use this in anything that looks like a collie. You also have to make sure that there is not secondary infection either with yeast or bacteria because the dog are usually licking at the spots. You will have to treat the mites and the secondary infection to get it to heal.

Hope this helps.

duffy

[***Melissa***]

Hi Duffy

Thanx for your post I think the reason why is was so 'traumatic' is that I'm used to the vet I had before taking them to the university, and he never ever examined either one of my doggies that thoroughly...when we take them for vaccinations he just give the injection and dewormer and we can go. I also thought that that was 'normal' and that's how it's supposed to be (stupid me). Then I had a prob with Bibi's eyes, and the vet checked to see whether her eye was red or not. It wasn't red, so he said she doesnt have infection but he wanted to give anti-biotics. But then didn't. That's were I got 'suspicious' and started to doubt him. Then I heard about the univ, and they begin so thorough was so different than what I was used to, that I didn't know what to think...hence the 'traumatic experience'. I think what freaked Bibi out the most was probably the 14 or so hands touching her, and she doesn't know any of them.

Where would a person find Goodwinol? At a pharmacy perhaps? (I'm thinking that there's a good chance that neither the vet nor the univ will have it)

If a person apply Goodwinol, and it's not demodex, will there be any negative affects?

How will I know if there is secondary infection? Is that something I will be able to see? And if she does have secondary infection, how do I treat it?

Melissa

[Mattie]

Melissa, although our vets don't check the temperature automatically, when an animal goes in for vaccinations they give them a healthcheck, temperature, ears, eyes, heart etc. If there is an ongoing problem like Merlin having renal failure, his temperature, blood pressure and bloods are taken every time he goes in, with Joe (heart problems) his heart and lungs are checked, Ellie (tracheotomy in) it is her lungs. When it is a newly qualified vet, they check everything they can, I am happy with this as the more they learn the better vets they will be but I rarely get these now because of the health problems my dogs have.

[***Melissa***]

Yes Mattie, I agree with you. Even though I don't really have experience with different vets, and Bibi and I were so scared at the univ I did feel better knowing that they examined her very thoroughly.

Unfortunally after the students graduate they very seldom stay here - they go to bigger towns / cities to work there.

[Duffy Jones]

The demodex usually causes the hair loss but the redness, pustules and crust is a secondary infection. Usually we look for both when we scrape. Can you call them back and ask them if they saw any secondary infection while looking for mites?

I would just do a internet search for goodwinol ointment and I think you should be able to find it. We get ours through one our vet distributors here. I see you are in South Africa so it might be harder to get, but you should be able to give them a call and talk to them about alternatives to dips that are available near you.

Great thing about goodwinol is that if it is not demodex it will not hurt putting it on.

Good luck and let me know if you need more help.

duf

[forkin14]

Forgive me if I'm repeating anything others have said or not addressing everything, I tried to read thoroughly but may have forgotten as I'm typing this!

Cadence went through what it sounds like you are describing. Her whole belly was covered in spots and nasty looking sores. Lost all the hair on her stomach and was CONSTANTLY itching and gnawing at herself. Well, we had a horrible vet. They kept telling us it was because of demodex mites.. turns out they never actually saw any of the mites from her skin scrapings and were just guessing! Several months, hundreds of dollars, dips, and antibiotics later, nothing changed and we took her to a different vet. This place was VERY thorough. They said it was probably allergies, told us to switch her food. We started buying "Purina One Sensitive Systems" kibble. They also gave us a prescription of "Cephalexin" antibiotics to use for 2 weeks, and a medicated shampoo to use every time we bathe her (Keflex is the medicated, first use that then an oatmeal shampoo after). We have never had a problem with her skin ever since!

Perhaps the vet was just assuming the mites were the issue? I know you said switching vets is not really an option, but maybe you can get them to talk with you longer about what they see and what other possibilities are? Our old vet was definitely just trying to get money and did not spend ANY time explaining things to us.

Hope the situation is getting better for you and Bibi!

[***Melissa***]

Thanx for everyone's help so far

I had some difficulty finding the ointment in South Africa, but I'm still trying. We are taking her (actually both doggies) for a full check up this coming Saturday to another vet (this vet is in another town, but I've heard he's brilliant), so I think he'll be able to help me finding the ointment or at least something similar.

I'm currently using aloe and lavender...the spots seem a little smaller than last week, and it seems she's itching a little less, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Univ was closed over the weekend but I'll call them during the day to ask if they saw sec infection.

About the allergies: I'll also talk to this other vet about the possibility of it being allergies, and I'm sure he'll run some tests if needed.

Thanks again for everything so far, I really appreciate it

Okay, so fingers crossed about this other vet, but I'm positive about him b/c of all the good things I've heard.

[Sarah83]

Rupert gets what they call "hot spots" which start out looking like the pics you've posted. His are always on his legs and the vet thinks they're probably started when he's bitten or stung by something or gets a tiny injury to the area in some other way, licks it and just doesn't stop licking it. His tend to go very quickly from looking like the pics you've posted to being red raw and wet looking. We just bathe with cool water several times a day and stop him from licking it now which is pretty much all the vet has ever suggested other than to take him back if it doesn't clear up or gets worse.

Bit of info
http://vetmedicine.about.com/cs/dogdise ... tspots.htm

[***Melissa***]

Thanx for the link Sarah. As far as I can tell her spots aren't wet or wet-looking, but I'll bathe her with cool water. Even if it's not the same, I'm sure it will help with itching and bring some relief.

[***Melissa***]

We took Bibi (and Striker) to the vet in Lichtenburg (at last!!).

She confirmed the demodex, and agrees with the dip the univ has given me. I asked her if there would be demodex on her anyway, and maybe not causing it, but she said that if they found demodex on a dog, and there is spots, hairloss...the symtems of demodex, we have to treat it. She also gave me ointment to put on once a day...F10 Germicidal Ointment.

She also did the scraping like they did at the univ, but Bibi didn't even give a small cry - nothing (and the vet also said that if she stands still it won't hurt her) She was crying at the univ though, so they must have hurt her.

I must say, Bibi was TERRIFIED of the table-thingie where you put the doggies on, and I think the smells...this is now due to the whole thing at the univ (8 students handling her at once - it was terrible for her). I told the vet that I think she's scared, because of the univ-episode, so she understood and work very gentle with her, and let me hold her, and stop working with her when she got too worked up waiting for her to settle again, etc. So that was very nice.

What I liked very much is:
- They are 2 vets at the one centre, and one is always on stand-by for emergencies (they are far from us, but at least I now have vets who are avail after hours, etc)
- I just 'felt' satisfied...not sure how to describe it, but everything was just...in place...from the lady working behind the counter (they way she taked to my doggies), the actually have a scale and weigh the doggies, the vet was incredibly nice, everything was just great
- I think I was annoying, bc I had a 1000 questions, and she didn't get impatient, tried to explain everything to me...just didn't mind my 1000 questions
- We speak the same language (really). My ex vet and the univ people speak mostly Tswana (I think), I'm Afrikaans, and we have to communicate in English...not always ideal. So both my vet and I speak Afrikaans, which is a bonus. (we have 9 or 11 or something official languages in SA, so room for maaaaany misunderstandings)

She said that I don't need to worry about Bibi's eyes (I posted about her runny eyes waaaaaaaay back), she showed my how her eyes must look like, and when it's very runny I can check whether it looks different. If it does, I should bring her in, but she said she doubt whether it will look different. She gave a few reasons why dogs can have runny eyes, but said that I really don't have to worry about it.

Re Striker: She said he looks like a table (meaning he is a fatty) and that he should loose some weight. She was so serious I felt like a schoolgirl who did something wrong. But anyway, she is right, he needs to loose weight. He has been dieting now for a while, but he doesn't seem thinner, so I'll have to give him even less food.

She doesn't agree with the raw food diet though, but I'm gonna stick to it (she doesn't have to know, right?)

But anyway, all in all, I'm happy with her, Striker LOVES her, and Bibi is scared, but okay, with her. So I found a new vet, and even if it's a mission to get to her (I have a car, but it's not really reliable for long-ish distances), I'll make a plan.

[Mattie]

I am so pleased you now have a vet you are happy with, we need to trust our vets with our children, we worry enough without the added worry of not trusting them. I could have moved anywhere in the UK but chose to stay close enough to keep my vets.

Up the exercise for Striker, it will work better than reducing his food, unless he is getting too much of course, then do both.