Raw Food Diet

[MPbandmom]

Thanks easilyconfused. Son just happens to have worked demonstrating "quality" knife sets at Costco before Christmas and was able to purchase a set on super discount. He should have just the tool to chop up a chicken and the muscle too. Whatever I can save on feeding Sky will help offset not being able to give Sirius chicken. She just seems to get really itchy after eating chicken. (At least the larger one can eat the less expensive food.)

Thanks for the tip on the blender. I think I'm going to try a food processer next time. Since I don't make mixed drinks and I intend to chop up food, it just seems like a better match for me.

[Horace's Mum]

Ok, where do I stand on feeding turkey drumsticks? I found one the other day in the supermarket, so I got it. Just cut a good proportion of the meat off and got 3 meals worth, then gave the rest to Horus, and he is tucking in like there's no tomorrow. But I am aware it is a weight bearing bone - he doesn't seem to be having problems but should I or shouldn't I be using these? They are a great easily accessible once a week treat if they are ok!

(He is one heck of a chewer, chicken last seconds, pork ribs last a minute or so, so I really need something that gives him a worthwhile meal!!)

Really chuffed though because as an experiment I tried him with pork ribs - they were on offer - and he has tolerated them brilliantly! He could never eat pig products before.

[Nettle]

If he's coping fine with the turkey drumstick - it's fine


A lot of antibiotics go into turkey meat though so I wouldn't recommend feeding it too often. I used to work with free-range rare-breed turkeys and they still had to have ABs in their food.

[Horace's Mum]

Cool, thanks. It lasted about 10mins which is the longest so far!! What kind of frequency would you suggest then?

What else can I be looking for that will be a really good chew? Ideally an hour or two would be nice!!

[MPbandmom]

Not sure if they have them in your area, but around here in the US, I can get beef necks that are cut into about 1" slices. My dogs eat most of the bone right away, but there is a portion that takes a lot more work and I usually end up throwing it away at the end of the day. (If I can sneak it away from them.) They will spend a good portion of the day chewing on the remainder.

[ClareMarsh]

You won't get two hours out of it but rabbit bones are much tougher than chicken and rabbit is a really good lean meat so if you see rabbit anywhere try him with it. Ted loves rabbit and physically cannot crunch through some of the bones (being a tiny tot) so it might slow Horace down a bit You do need to freeze it first to kill parasites.

[mish&keisha]

Hi all,
I came across your forum by accident when I visited Victoria’s website after avidly watching her shows. I was pleased to see you have a raw friendly group so I thought I’d share my experience with raw feeding.

I first started researching different types of dog food after my puppy Keeshond – Keisha (the Diva) decided she didn’t like food anymore!

I was horrified to learn about the impact the pet food industry had on our dogs and how processed food was linked to cancer. My last 2 dogs died of cancer, one from cancer of the tongue and the other cancer of the nasal passages. Both were fed Bakers complete.

I had never heard of raw feeding before, when Keisha’s breeder suggested I fed raw chicken wings to my puppy, I thought she was insane!

Anyway, that was then and now I know better. Keisha is now 2 and a half and I have been feeding her on RMB’s for the last 2 years and she is a picture of health.

I can tell you that it’s not been all plain sailing, I’ve had my woes, sleepless nights, spent hours preparing her raw meals, most all down to operator error and inexperience. I can safely say that it took me over a year to feel fully confident about raw feeding.

Nothing could be simpler now, I find the whole experience effortless and rewarding with the knowledge that I am doing the best thing for my dog’s health.

I believe that, like their ancestors, dogs are carnivores, so therefore I don’t feed veggies, cereals or grains and definitely no dairy. I bought a second hand freezer and every few weeks, I stock up on budget or sale offers from the supermarket and chicken carcasses (free from my butcher)!

Meal times have reduced from hours to simply handing Keisha a lump of meat on the bone from the fridge. She has chunks of raw liver and kidney straight from the freezer and salmon oil as a supplement. That’s it, so easy!

It’s also made me rethink about what I feed the rest of my family, I don’t buy hardly any processed food now and I am much more aware of what we eat. So, it’s good all round!

Keep up the good work guys!

Michelle & Keisha
Leeds, UK.

[ClareMarsh]

Hi Michelle,

Great to have you here and great to have another raw feeder (I think I recognise you from the RMB yahoo group). And I love Keeshonds, I'd never heard of them until I met one walking Ted where we live, he is such a lovely, well mannered dog. Get some photos of her on here (if it is her on RMB she is ADORABLE ).

Clare

[mish&keisha]

Hi Clare! Thanks for replying, Yes, that is me, and her! Trying to upload some photos but either I'm doing something wrong or I don't have permission?

Michelle & Keisha
Leeds, UK

[jacksdad]

dogs aren't strict carnivores, they do need and benefit from veggies, fruit and few other things including some limited use of dairy such as yogurt and eggs. Yes the raw meaty bone should be the foundation of the diet, but by it's self isn't a rounded diet that meets all the nutrition needs.

At the very least, if you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you check out this book http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DN138

[mish&keisha]

Hi Jacksdad, thank you for your reply. You are correct when you say that dogs are not strict carnivores. Unlike obligate carnivores, dogs can actually survive with a wide range of variety in their diet but that is what they are doing, ‘surviving’, not ‘thriving’. My last two dogs survived on kibble, it doesn’t mean that it was good for them.

The Smithsonian Institute class dogs as carnivores, the same as their ancestors, the Grey Wolf. A dogs digestive system is identical to the Grey Wolf, a wolf does not eat veg. Dogs cannot digest vegetables, they are not designed to. They will shake out the stomach contents of a large herbivore before eating the lining. They may eat the stomach contents of small prey but this is a tiny, tiny amount and the herbivorous prey eats leaves, grass and herbs - rather different from cabbage, carrots and broccoli.

It’s been documented that wolves will sometimes eat berries, this is said to be because they are starving or that they just like the taste of them. I’m sure my dog would like the taste of pizza and chips but she won’t be fed it!

Wolves would never have access to dairy products. Wolves and dogs alike are lactose intolerant, humans are the only mammal on the planet that eats dairy after weaning and a lot of us are also lactose intolerant. When all mammals are born they have enzymes in their stomach solely to digest the milk from their mothers. As they are weaned, the enzymes are lost and therefore the ability to digest milk is also lost.

Wolves, however, do eat eggs and are, as you say, a good addition to the diet.

There are many theories about the pros and cons of including veggies as part of a raw diet and I am not saying you are wrong or misinformed and that I am an expert in the subject. We can only form our own opinions from the research we study and we may change our opinions when new information is available.

I have not come across the book you have suggested, and as I consider myself to be open minded, I am prepared to explore different avenues (and the book you recommended), if I feel it will benefit the health of my dog. I hope that you will, in turn, read the articles below that have influenced me to this date.

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/

If you are already a member of ukrmb, check out the links below both written by vet Roger Meacock:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawM ... sage/11963
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawM ... ssage/7468

Michelle & Keisha
Leeds, UK

[Suzette]

While I do offer them every so often, My dog Piper simply won't eat veggies or fruits, so she's a pretty strict carnivore by choice. She will eat eggs and plain yogurt, but beyond that, it's all about the meat, fish and bones for her. She doesn't nibble on grass either, so clearly vegetation just isn't for her. After all my own research on raw feeding, I've come to the conclusion that while veggies (and some fruits) in small quantities (and when prepared properly) won't in any way harm the dog, and some truly do enjoy them, they don't need them either. Otherwise, their systems would be better designed to digest them, which they are not.

I'll still offer them from time to time just for variety's sake to my dog, but I'm not a bit worried that they're not a part of her diet if she continues to choose not to eat them.

[Nettle]

Regarding what wild canids eat and don't eat - I can't speak for wolves as we haven't had them wild here since the late 1700s but I can speak for foxes, which eat a huge variety of vegetation including maize cobs, green wheat and all sorts that they dig up in allotments and vegetable gardens, plus vast amounts of fruit in season including grapes off the vine, orchard fruit, blackberries and (amazingly) sloe berries. Don't know if you have sloes in USA but they are the fruit of the blackthorn and as bitter as a very bitter thing. This is all personal observation.

It's quite possible that wolves do eat a lot of vegetation, just that either nobody has seen them do it or wolves that have been studied in the wild are those that live in areas that don't produce a lot of vegetation.


I can remember a lot of scientific 'fact' that stated chimpanzees were peaceful vegetarians. Then one day the Goodall team watched them hunt and kill and pull apart and eat some monkeys.....

[jacksdad]

always open to solid info.

Despite being the same species, dogs are not wolves, wolves are not dogs. While studying and learning about wolves can be helpful in learning about dog, there is a limit to the value of this. We must be careful about how much wolf "knowledge" we apply to dogs, because at the risk of repeating my self....dogs are not wolves, wolves are not dogs.

They are very genetically close, very close and they can inter breed and their off spring can breed and inter breed and so on. this makes them the same species, but that doesn't make them identical and just being genetically close, even very close does not make them identical. it turns out even very small differences genetically can make HUGE differences in unexpected ways.

This something to keep in mind. Maybe even more so since there are some pretty compelling arguments that while dogs came from wolves, most probably the grey wolf, that the wolf of to day isn't the same as the wolf dog's evolved from.

At the end of the day, wolves are cool and studying them to better understand dogs is all well and good, but ultimately if we truly want to know what is best for dogs we need to study dogs.

[jacksdad]

I hope that you will, in turn, read the articles below that have influenced me to this date.

So while nutrition is a new area for me, lots and lots to still learn. I have taken some time to skim at least your first link, and as I have time I will skim others.

Your first link advocates a "prey-model" diet and on the surface that seems logical. However I am not entirely convinced that modeling our dogs diet after wolves is the correct way to go. Shouldn't we be modeling such a diet off of what dogs do when left to their own devices verse what the wolf is doing?

Again, dogs aren't wolves and wolves aren't dogs. They are VERY close, but close isn't the same as identical or same as. I would need need to do some more research before I am personally comfortable with the idea of feeding a dog like you would a wolf. In the behavior world responsible researchers warn of issues with too strictly applying wolf behavior to dogs. I suspect the ideas/reasons behind this would also translate to dogs in terms of nutritional needs.

I am also concerned about how much wolf research has focused on behavior and social structure of wolfs and how much focus has been on feeding and nutrition. are the studies passing on "oh by the way I saw this today" as antidotes or was the studies used to back a wolf based prey diet done solely as studies looking into what wolves eat and their nutritional needs and how wild wolves go about meeting those needs? but even then, how much is truly of benefit in feeding our dogs? dogs aren't wolves, wolves aren't dogs.

Not saying your wrong, and I am right in my choice to follow a BARF type diet. Just have an honestly inquiring mind that would love to know more and these are questions that came to my mind.