Raw Food Diet

[mish&keisha]

Hi Jacksdad, like you, I believe that I have lots to learn and although I have been researching on and off for over 2 years, it’s still an ongoing learning experience for me. I have taken your advice and in the process of looking into the benefits of feeding veggies, so thanks for making me aware that I need to revisit my research.

I don’t feed Keisha the prey-model diet which some people refer to as the ‘gold standard’ of feeding. I am far too squeamish for that. I would say I feed her the ‘silver standard’, animal body parts or ‘Franken-prey’ along with offal.

I hear what you are saying about dogs not being wolves but my research has led me to believe that dogs are subspecies of the Gray Wolf and therefore their anatomy would be identical. I don’t know whether you have had time to read the myth list. There are some very interesting points but some are not clear facts.

There is a reference to you question ‘of what dogs do when left to their own devices verse what the wolf is doing?’ but, again, there is no link to a fact.

I know what Keisha would do if I left her to her own devices, she’d be in the cake tin like a shot! I think I can safely say that that dogs, like wolves, are scavengers. They will, and can eat most things but like I said in my last post, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is good for them.

I was reading into supplementing Keisha’s diet with veggies, and I can’t get my head round why people blend or cook the veg before feeding it to their dogs. I have read that it is a fact that dogs have a short intestinal tract which prohibits the digestion of cellulose. I can only assume that veg is cooked or blended to enable the dog to ingest any relevant nutrition. That sounds unnatural to me. Can anyone elaborate to help me understand?

Before I switched to RMB’s, I used to give a previous dog a whole raw carrot most days because she loved them. She passed out the carrot in the exact state as it was when it was swallowed. That would seem to indicate that the carrot was not digested at all.

I’m sorry I can’t offer any hardened facts to your questions, like I said, I’m no expert and still learning myself. Have you considered joining the ukrmb forum? They are wonderful, friendly people, much more experienced than I and they may be able to answer your questions better than I can.

Thanks for your reply!

Michelle & Keisha
Leeds, UK

[Nettle]

Re: the vegetable processing - you are right there with the understanding that dogs can't digest the cellulose and so they can't access the nutrients. Doesn't mean that the raw veg that passes straight through isn't doing a job. It cleans the gut of slime (dogs fed on wholly processed food can sometimes form a lot of mucus in the gut) and is very good at expelling worms, though rather dramatic as the worms are passed alive! One of my colleagues who fosters rescue dogs (up to 20 at a time) says that the first raw vegetable meal produces dramatic results. Once the gut has settled, he uses conventional veterinary wormers, but the advantage of using the raw vegetables the first time is that you don't get a mass of dead worms blocking the gut.

Hebivorous animals also have trouble digesting cellulose. Either they have to chew cud (ungulates) re-ingest faecal matter (rabbits, hares and a few others) or they have vast stomachs like fermentation vats and are very inefficient feeders (eg equids and elephants).

We can't digest it either, but we have evolved cooking in order to manage that.

So - we break down the cellulose for the dogs by pulverising or cooking very lightly. Wild canids will take the guts out of their prey and scatter the contents, to eat later if they want to (partly-processed vegetation with the cellulose broken down) but their primary access to digestively-accessible vegetable matter is the dung of herbivores.

[JudyN]

their primary access to digestively-accessible vegetable matter is the dung of herbivores.

Is this a large part of a wild canid's diet? I know many dogs love fresh herbivore poo, but knowing that it is a standard part of a canid's diet could change my attitude to it a bit. Not enough to eliminate the yuck factor when Jasper's got horse poo all over his muzzle.... but a bit

[Nettle]

It's a significant part, but anywhere there are sufficient herbivores to produce large amounts of dung in the hypothetical wild, there are sufficient opportunities to eat them too, whether as prey or carrion.

[jacksdad]

I don’t feed Keisha the prey-model diet which some people refer to as the ‘gold standard’ of feeding. I am far too squeamish for that. I would say I feed her the ‘silver standard’, animal body parts or ‘Franken-prey’ along with offal.

I would have to read up more about the "prey-model" diet to fully understand it, but the impression I got from the myth link you provided it is 100% meat and bone diet. One of the augments against people feeding their dog them self verse buying a "balanced" commercial food is that meat by it's self does not provide everything a dog needs. From what I have learned so far this is a valid point. Which is why I like the "give your dog a bone book". while it suggests RMB as a basis of the diet, it talks about a whole bunch of other foods that provide the nutrients a dogs needs and rounds out the diet.

I hear what you are saying about dogs not being wolves but my research has led me to believe that dogs are subspecies of the Gray Wolf and therefore their anatomy would be identical. I don’t know whether you have had time to read the myth list. There are some very interesting points but some are not clear facts.

I think it would be prudent to be a bit suspicious of claims that dogs have identical anatomy to a wolf. we know that selective breeding for even 1 behavior trait brings along unexpected physical changes. And dogs have been evolving along side humans for thousands of years and eating our cast offs as well as hunting their own food. Both these things suggest differences. The organs might be similar to identical, but how they function, what they can and can't do, tolerate etc...there might be differences. I think this needs to be considered until proven otherwise.

Dogs do have a lot genetically in common with the Grey Wolf, but again there is some pretty good arguments that the wolves of today and the wolves of antiquity that Dogs come from may not be identical to the Grey Wolf of today. and wolves them self haven't been static in their evolution over the last few thousands years. So differences are bound to be there and even small ones could turn out to be significant.

There is a reference to you question ‘of what dogs do when left to their own devices verse what the wolf is doing?’ but, again, there is no link to a fact.

By this I mean if the dog lived on it's own outside of a human house and family. What would it eat? That is more important than what wolf would eat in my opinion. I could be way off here, but to me it just makes more sense.

I used to give a previous dog a whole raw carrot most days because she loved them. She passed out the carrot in the exact state as it was when it was swallowed. That would seem to indicate that the carrot was not digested at all.

I have seen this too. If I give a whole veggie, there are often undigested chunks coming out the other end. But if there is no harm to the dog, then I have see it suggested this is a good way to "fill" the dog up without adding calories. the idea being if you have an over weight dog, you cut back on the quantity of food it needs to meet it's health needs, but to help the dog feel "full" you can give it whole veggies like a carrot.

My dog doesn't have a weight problem, but he seems to enjoy crunching on a carrot, so give them to him because he enjoys it.

For his nutritional needs I do my best to do as Nettles is saying, crushing up the veggies as best I can. doing this I almost never see any sign of him eating veggies in his stools.

I’m sorry I can’t offer any hardened facts to your questions, like I said, I’m no expert and still learning myself. Have you considered joining the ukrmb forum? They are wonderful, friendly people, much more experienced than I and they may be able to answer your questions better than I can.

makes two of us. I will have to poke around the forum when I have some time.

I am just starting my journey into dog nutrition, but the one thing I have found for sure is there is A LOT of baseless arguments out there in support of whichever option the person is arguing for, be it raw, cooked or commercial. So do keep questioning and learning. I know I plan to.

[Horace's Mum]

Ok people, I could do with some brainstorming. Horus has been on raw for nearly a month, has had no side-effects from the changeover whatsoever, and is doing better than he ever has before. Great. Problem is that he is doing too well - he is getting chunkier by the day!! I know, I know, reduce the amount, but it's not that easy with him.

I have been following the 2-3% rule, based on what he should weigh at optimum, and being him I started with 2%, out of 15kg that is 300g per day. He has 100g for breakfast (frozen packet minced raw stuff for ease of use until I get a bigger freezer, but great variety including offal, tripe, rabbit, chicken, lamb, fish fresh or tinned, sometimes eggs and raw oats - oats help his stomach) and roughly 200g RMB for tea - again at the moment I am limited by what I can get and store, but this is a mix of lamb, pork ribs or chicken pieces.

Horus has a problem that he has excess stomach acid and probable ulcers, so he can't go hungry. He already eats more carrots than you can imagine - he will easily demolish 1-2kg in a night if allowed. He will eat as many apples and pears as you give him - currently the record is 8-9 - as well as raw cauliflower and the odd bit of cabbage. So filling him up on raw veg doesn't really work!!

I need to get the weight off, and keep it off, but any miraculous ways to do this without making him feel hungry?! He probably has 2-3kg to lose right now.

[ClareMarsh]

So good to hear he's doing well on it. My first thoughts are stick with/feed mostly leaner meats so chicken, turkey and rabbit and with the chicken and turkey remove the skin as its fatty, that should help but I'm sure others will have better ideas

[Nettle]

Perfect answer from ClareMarsh - leaner meats and more bones. Bones (raw meaty ones of course) are very filling and take a long time to digest.

[ClareMarsh]

Perfect answer from ClareMarsh

OOoo, go me

[jacksdad]

so on the flip side....my dog walker had a question. Unfortunately I didn't have time to get a lot of details. But she either works with or knows of a raw fed husky that is recovering from being sick and is under weight.

Since I don't have details I will ask the question this way. Assuming no other health issues and the dog being otherwise healthy but under weight what is a good and safe way to build weight when raw feeding? just feed more? are there any meats or other food items that help build weight safely/better than others?

I will try and get more details regarding the specific dog she was asking about because I would be interested to know if you would handle things differently with a dog recovering from being sick. I am assuming what the "sickness" was would have some relevance to how you would proceed too?

[Nettle]

I am assuming what the "sickness" was would have some relevance to how you would proceed too?

Oh yes, very much so. A suitable diet should be devised based upon whatever was wrong. And of course, according to how underweight the dog was, too.

[jacksdad]

ok. got more detail. IF this is beyond what is appropriate to give advice out over the internet please feel free to say so. Not to mention the dog isn't mine so I am sure there are lots of details that could be important that I don't know and so can't pass on. again, if this isn't something you want to touch, no offense will be taken and I completely understand.

Anyway the husky is 8 years old, has/had cancer. Just completed a round of chemo and radiation and is recovering. is reported to be a picky eater and from what is understood is mostly on chicken. Is on a raw diet, but not sure why kind. as in do they buy commercial raw, or are following something like in the "give your dog a bone book".

[Nettle]

Given that background, I would give the dog whatever it wanted to eat in whatever quantities it wanted to eat it.

Obviously I can't ask any dogs, but I know with people undergoing chemo, a lot of food tastes vile.

I am therefore going for quality of life as in if he enjoys something he can have it, and the hell with balanced nutrition or anything else, so that the time remaining to him is without stress as much as possible. He may well look underweight and awful - that can't be helped - but if he feels as well as possible, he won't be worrying about how he looks.

He might find meaty broths easier to eat than solid food, depending on what type of cancer he has.

[jacksdad]

I will pass that on, thanks

[bendog]

Can you feed dogs Rat?

I work in a University and often use rat aortas and hearts and rats are culled for many other reasons. I'm not sure if it's possible anyway, or what the regulations are but would lab rats be safe to feed to the dogs?

Most people only use the organs in their work, so I guess the meat is just binned, however the rats are usually treated with sedatives before being gassed so it might not be safe for a dog?