When I lost beloved pets to disease, I read the Animal Protection Institute's investigation of toxic ingredients that went even into the so-called top name commercial pet foods. Therefore, I never buy any grocery-store offered foods. If you think one is better than the other, check the ingredients and manufacturer. Manufacturers know that customers want choice, therefore, the same company will market the same product under different names, perhaps by adding or changing an ingredient. The products are still toxic.
It's not just about getting any nutrients in foods served to your pets, its also about getting the right combination and levels of nutrition. When I tried serving combos of raw meat, fruits, veggies as human foods mixed, I was counseled by my holistic vet that without nutritional know-how, you could actually be feeding your pets inadequately. She suggested that I supplement to assure proper nutrition is being received.
Take your cues from what the wildlife cousins of our domesticated pets would eat. Meat eaters kill for meat, and get their fruits and veggie nutrition from what the kill had eater before. After doing research, I decided to use BRAVO brand pet foods (which comes in low-cost turkey and chicken and higher cost rabbit, bison? and others) and Wellness/no grain dry foods. I buy organ meats from my local butcher (really cost-effective), I get over a month's servings when I buy the whole organ and cut it up myself (not fun, but its healthy for my "kidz.") Be careful not to overdue liver because of Vit A toxic buildup. I also routinely add to this basic diet handfuls of mixed raw veggies, or a bit of fruit (not too much, diarrhea will result).
For specific guidance, many holistic vets have books out and vary in their specific recommendations. And, many people advocate strenuously if such things as dairy and egg products should be given to pets as well.
Don't forget raw bones--nature's toothbrush. I get the thicker leg bones for my larger dog, she loves chewing the grissle(sp?) out.
Raw food is better
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RottnPittie
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Here here! I have been feeding a raw diet for 6 years. It's the best things I can do for my pets. I know it can be a scary transition and it's not what main stream conventional vets will tell you ( they push Science diet, Eukanuba and the like and all it is is corn). Better diet leads to less health problems: skin allergies, digestive issues, ear infections, bad breath and teeth, hair loss, obesity, etc
Cort
Another interesting thing about dog raw diets
You have to consider an animals teeth and digestive tracts for cues on how to best feed them. For example, people have 20 feet of small intestine and about 5 feet of large intestine. Or, 25 feet of area for food to move through. People are not meant to eat meat, which putrifies in the gut after doing other deleterious things.
Dogs have a small intestine that is about 2 1/2 times their body length. Large intestines are 16" in a 40# dog. Shorter intestines here mean meat eaters. In another comparison, lions have the shortest digestive tracts of all mammals.
Pointed teeth mean grabbing, holding, tearing meat from prey. Generally tearing off large pieces and swallowing meat whole since there's no flat teeth for chewing. People do not have pointed teeth. Fruits and veggies don't try to escape when bitten and our back teeth mash foods well.
In the wild, once the prey is killed, the hunters favor the belly, to get the rich nutrients stored in the digestive tract, or nutrients from the veggies their prey previously ate.
Dogs have a small intestine that is about 2 1/2 times their body length. Large intestines are 16" in a 40# dog. Shorter intestines here mean meat eaters. In another comparison, lions have the shortest digestive tracts of all mammals.
Pointed teeth mean grabbing, holding, tearing meat from prey. Generally tearing off large pieces and swallowing meat whole since there's no flat teeth for chewing. People do not have pointed teeth. Fruits and veggies don't try to escape when bitten and our back teeth mash foods well.
In the wild, once the prey is killed, the hunters favor the belly, to get the rich nutrients stored in the digestive tract, or nutrients from the veggies their prey previously ate.
People are meant to eat meat and we are perfectly capable of digesting it with no problems at all and certainly no putrefying in the gut. I don't know who told you this drivel but it sounds like something from a vegan group.
We are omnivores. We have canine teeth. We need certain nutrients that can only be found in meat and we have great difficulty extracting certain nutrients from vegetable matter that we extract easily from meat.
Dogs need a little vegetable matter, which they get from herbivore dung and to a lesser extent herbivore stomach contents, as well as scavenging directly from vegetation. They are carnivores with omnivore capability.
Where canine and human digestions coincide is that neither of us does at all well on cereal starch, and that although both of us can exist on a vegetarian diet, it won't bring us optimum health unless supplements are also taken.
We are omnivores. We have canine teeth. We need certain nutrients that can only be found in meat and we have great difficulty extracting certain nutrients from vegetable matter that we extract easily from meat.
Dogs need a little vegetable matter, which they get from herbivore dung and to a lesser extent herbivore stomach contents, as well as scavenging directly from vegetation. They are carnivores with omnivore capability.
Where canine and human digestions coincide is that neither of us does at all well on cereal starch, and that although both of us can exist on a vegetarian diet, it won't bring us optimum health unless supplements are also taken.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
There are numerous credible studies documenting major disease with meat eating. A quick look at statistics worldwide, diets vs. disease, shows the highest incidents of major disease associated with societies eating meat. And that's only the beginning for arguing for plant based diets. Previously healthy immigrants --now living in the U.S. and who succumb to the Western diet find themselves acquiring disease at a much higher rate than their people left behind in their native countries. Such facts regarding meat-based diets are all old news. Many of these studies can be found in journals of medicine, nutritrition--I'm not going to list all here.
As for the meat you herald as nature's finest for human consumption, beef from factory farming is acquired from cows forced fed grains WHICH IS NOT THEIR NATURAL DIET. Cows eat grass, not grains. But controlled grain feeding maximizes profits -- to hell with the real nutritional needs of the animal--it's not productive to have them lazily graze on grass--cows are also attached for months and years to indoor stalls not meant for movement (don't you think animals need sun?). Such practices are called factory farming, an abusive and unhealthy method for maximizing meat production (an industry subsidized heavily by the US government--the reason why, by the way, you don't often hear why beef isn't good for you.) These are just a few of the hellish reasons that animals acquire health problems and stress, solved with large doses of antibiotics. When these animals' antibiotic-fed meats are consumed by people over years -- it makes many antibiotics useless today in treating the same diseases against which they were effective in the past. You acquire cholesterol from eating meats that have cholesterol, you don't find cholesterol in plant foods. Chicken, pigs and lambs endure even worse factory farming abuse, geese have product force fed down their throats so that they produce "better" meat--but I'll stop with the beef example.
As for nutrition only gotten from meats, that's also nonsense. Asparagus are just one healthy protein source. A varied vegeterian or vegan diet provides all the nutrition you need excepting B12. However, some supplementation might be a good idea depending on where you get your foods. If your fruits and veggies are grown in depleted soils, you are not getting the nutrition you need being vegan or vegetarian.
Finally, if the Western diet is so healthy, why is most of the population obese or otherwise unhealthy? Shouldn't we all be thin and healthy? Why are many people dying at 60-70-80-90 with horrible diseases, when we should be living until we die as healthy, clear-thinking, active human beings? Many people mindlessly buy into ads depicting happy people eating meat, sugar, dairy--and later accept that old age means nursing homes. Perhaps we need to think about how diets affect our health. Maybe with so many people getting sick and dying at early ages, maybe just maybe, it could be because of meats? Duh.
Certainly you can digest meat, just like cows can digest grains--but not healthfully. Guinea pigs digest cyanide easily, too. But eventually, failing to give your body what it was meant to eat causes the major diseases that are so prevalent today. Perhaps you believe like the ads suggest that Osteoporis is due to lack of calcium. When your body is highly acidic (like when it eats meats), it searches for sources to balance your pH. Where does it find its alkaline sources? Your bones--and in harvesting your bones, your body turns your bones into a series of breakable holes. This is one example of how your body tries to cope with your diet abuse, abuse it will only tolerate for so long before it gives up and succumbs to disease. Your body finally says, it has enough.
Diet is not the only reason for bad health, but is the only reason I'm writing about here.
All nutrients, excepting B12, are found in plant based foods. Cavemen existed mostly on plant foods until trekking to colder climates, which then introduced them to the concept of killing prey for meat as an only food source available. Later, the concept of agriculture was born, which allowed cavemen to stop traveling non-stop for food, they now controlled their food sources thru farming and thus, could stay put and have an easier life. They learned how to like eating meat, so they built corrals, too. Trade during the Renaissance introduced salt, which improved food flavor. But just because a food source is available, or was once eaten, or makes things taste better, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for you. Cavemen didn't have the benefit of controlled lab studies in their day.
As for putrefication in the gut, anyone being in the room near the back-end of a person disagreeing with their meated meal, would disagree with your assertion that putrefaction does not exist. If your stools' odor peels wallpaper off your bathroom walls, it's a sure sign that your foods disagree with you--and should likely not be eaten. Dark yellow urine is another sign of bad eating. As is the presence of dandruff, ear wax, and other things that people think just happens in life (and which mercifully, some advertised product can only cure--wink/wink), when people should be reading such things as warning signs because of poor diet.
Perhaps this argument can be settled by how well everyone uses their bathrooms.
I'm amused you regard vegans or vegeterians as "some vegan group," written as if something nasty must be assumed with "those" people. Get a grip, please. We can agree to disagree without being so offensive.
As for the meat you herald as nature's finest for human consumption, beef from factory farming is acquired from cows forced fed grains WHICH IS NOT THEIR NATURAL DIET. Cows eat grass, not grains. But controlled grain feeding maximizes profits -- to hell with the real nutritional needs of the animal--it's not productive to have them lazily graze on grass--cows are also attached for months and years to indoor stalls not meant for movement (don't you think animals need sun?). Such practices are called factory farming, an abusive and unhealthy method for maximizing meat production (an industry subsidized heavily by the US government--the reason why, by the way, you don't often hear why beef isn't good for you.) These are just a few of the hellish reasons that animals acquire health problems and stress, solved with large doses of antibiotics. When these animals' antibiotic-fed meats are consumed by people over years -- it makes many antibiotics useless today in treating the same diseases against which they were effective in the past. You acquire cholesterol from eating meats that have cholesterol, you don't find cholesterol in plant foods. Chicken, pigs and lambs endure even worse factory farming abuse, geese have product force fed down their throats so that they produce "better" meat--but I'll stop with the beef example.
As for nutrition only gotten from meats, that's also nonsense. Asparagus are just one healthy protein source. A varied vegeterian or vegan diet provides all the nutrition you need excepting B12. However, some supplementation might be a good idea depending on where you get your foods. If your fruits and veggies are grown in depleted soils, you are not getting the nutrition you need being vegan or vegetarian.
Finally, if the Western diet is so healthy, why is most of the population obese or otherwise unhealthy? Shouldn't we all be thin and healthy? Why are many people dying at 60-70-80-90 with horrible diseases, when we should be living until we die as healthy, clear-thinking, active human beings? Many people mindlessly buy into ads depicting happy people eating meat, sugar, dairy--and later accept that old age means nursing homes. Perhaps we need to think about how diets affect our health. Maybe with so many people getting sick and dying at early ages, maybe just maybe, it could be because of meats? Duh.
Certainly you can digest meat, just like cows can digest grains--but not healthfully. Guinea pigs digest cyanide easily, too. But eventually, failing to give your body what it was meant to eat causes the major diseases that are so prevalent today. Perhaps you believe like the ads suggest that Osteoporis is due to lack of calcium. When your body is highly acidic (like when it eats meats), it searches for sources to balance your pH. Where does it find its alkaline sources? Your bones--and in harvesting your bones, your body turns your bones into a series of breakable holes. This is one example of how your body tries to cope with your diet abuse, abuse it will only tolerate for so long before it gives up and succumbs to disease. Your body finally says, it has enough.
Diet is not the only reason for bad health, but is the only reason I'm writing about here.
All nutrients, excepting B12, are found in plant based foods. Cavemen existed mostly on plant foods until trekking to colder climates, which then introduced them to the concept of killing prey for meat as an only food source available. Later, the concept of agriculture was born, which allowed cavemen to stop traveling non-stop for food, they now controlled their food sources thru farming and thus, could stay put and have an easier life. They learned how to like eating meat, so they built corrals, too. Trade during the Renaissance introduced salt, which improved food flavor. But just because a food source is available, or was once eaten, or makes things taste better, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for you. Cavemen didn't have the benefit of controlled lab studies in their day.
As for putrefication in the gut, anyone being in the room near the back-end of a person disagreeing with their meated meal, would disagree with your assertion that putrefaction does not exist. If your stools' odor peels wallpaper off your bathroom walls, it's a sure sign that your foods disagree with you--and should likely not be eaten. Dark yellow urine is another sign of bad eating. As is the presence of dandruff, ear wax, and other things that people think just happens in life (and which mercifully, some advertised product can only cure--wink/wink), when people should be reading such things as warning signs because of poor diet.
Perhaps this argument can be settled by how well everyone uses their bathrooms.
I'm amused you regard vegans or vegeterians as "some vegan group," written as if something nasty must be assumed with "those" people. Get a grip, please. We can agree to disagree without being so offensive.
Because most people just plain don't eat healthy, meat or no meat.Esprit64 wrote:Finally, if the Western diet is so healthy, why is most of the population obese or otherwise unhealthy?
I'd feed raw if I could afford it. Unfortunately, meat is very expensive around here.
Also, all kibble is not the devil. If you are conscientious about looking at the labels and knowing what to look for in the ingredients, calling each company to make sure the food is free of harmful ingredients such as ethoxyquin, and paying close attention to that company's history (have they been involved in recalls? What country do their ingredients come from?), then you can safely find a kibble.
I do agree that the vast majority of kibble out there is not suitable for a dog to be eating, but there ARE quite a few exceptions, and those of us who can't afford raw or homecooked aren't bad owners if we feed kibble, especially if we research it (just like you have to research raw).
Eevee, 10-year-old Border Collie mix - My Heart Dog!
Ravinel Fox Magick, CGC (Shippo), 4-year-old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Cheetah wrote:Because most people just plain don't eat healthy, meat or no meat. Fattening and unhealthy foods are very addictive and once you start eating them, it takes willpower to quit.Esprit64 wrote:Finally, if the Western diet is so healthy, why is most of the population obese or otherwise unhealthy?
I'd feed raw if I could afford it. Unfortunately, meat is very expensive around here.
Also, all kibble is not the devil. If you are conscientious about looking at the labels and knowing what to look for in the ingredients, calling each company to make sure the food is free of harmful ingredients such as ethoxyquin, and paying close attention to that company's history (have they been involved in recalls? What country do their ingredients come from?), then you can safely find a kibble.
I do agree that the vast majority of kibble out there is not suitable for a dog to be eating, but there ARE quite a few exceptions, and those of us who can't afford raw or homecooked aren't bad owners if we feed kibble, especially if we research it (just like you have to research raw).
Eevee, 10-year-old Border Collie mix - My Heart Dog!
Ravinel Fox Magick, CGC (Shippo), 4-year-old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
I call shenanigans on this one. Predators have larger brains than scavengers and herbivores. It takes a massive amount of protein to develop a predators brain. Unless one wants to start arguing intelligent design gave us big brains and soybeans, there's a general acceptance that protohuman was a small prey hunter gatherer and carrion eater (in fact the theory is postulated that we like cooking our meat not to sterilize it but because protohumans used fire to imitate the rotting action.)Esprit64 wrote:Cavemen existed mostly on plant foods until trekking to colder climates, which then introduced them to the concept of killing prey for meat as an only food source available. Later, the concept of agriculture was born, which allowed cavemen to stop traveling non-stop for food, they now controlled their food sources thru farming and thus, could stay put and have an easier life. They learned how to like eating meat, so they built corrals, too. Trade during the Renaissance introduced salt, which improved food flavor. But just because a food source is available, or was once eaten, or makes things taste better, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for you. Cavemen didn't have the benefit of controlled lab studies in their day.
Why is it that people like to ignore that we have the lowest infant and child mortality rates in the world? Could the higher incidence of heart disease be related to the fact that people live much longer than they normally would if nature had her way? Is it possible that more children are being diagnosed with diabetes because we're better at diagnostics?
That's it exactly cheetah. And when the majority of Americans eat meat, it is heavy, fat laden meat - and a good chunk of hamburger, which is in general, the stuff that's left over when other meat cuts are cut. Okay, I admit it, I eat horribly too, and in this part of the world, there's no wonder - we make the horrid foods for you taste like heaven, and the foods that are good for you taste like cardboard.Cheetah wrote: Because most people just plain don't eat healthy, meat or no meat.
I'd feed raw if I could afford it. Unfortunately, meat is very expensive around here.
Also, all kibble is not the devil. If you are conscientious about looking at the labels and knowing what to look for in the ingredients, calling each company to make sure the food is free of harmful ingredients such as ethoxyquin, and paying close attention to that company's history (have they been involved in recalls? What country do their ingredients come from?), then you can safely find a kibble.
I do agree that the vast majority of kibble out there is not suitable for a dog to be eating, but there ARE quite a few exceptions, and those of us who can't afford raw or homecooked aren't bad owners if we feed kibble, especially if we research it (just like you have to research raw).
I give my dog cooked meat a few times a week - when we've grilled usually. Part of the meat is separated especially for Dodger, and of course, he loves it. But again, meat here costs a fortune. And well, we are currently on food stamps because of lower income - I won't put human food for the dog on the food stamps because it's not for us, and with the income that we do have, I can't buy that much money in meat to feed him raw meat all week.
I've been told that all dogs have a need for some veggies in their diet - and watching Dodger, I believe it. If he didn't get what I supplemented his dog food with, he'd graze the yard like it was a total other meal (now I don't need to supplement his veggies because he's on a better dog food), which is why I started supplementing his meals to begin with.
As far as kibble being evil - well, I'm new to this, but I did a lot of research before we figured out what food to put Dodger on, and asked advice from a lot of people on these forums (and thank you all, dodger loves his new food). And I'm very happy with it so far.
Okay, that's it for my beginner's information - just wanted to get my opinion out there.
Dodger - 2 1/2 yo American Bulldog Mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Dodger/DCP_0106.jpg[/img]
RIP Loth 10 year old Husky/Keeshond/Shar pei mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Loth/DCP_0039.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Dodger/DCP_0106.jpg[/img]
RIP Loth 10 year old Husky/Keeshond/Shar pei mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Loth/DCP_0039.jpg[/img]
Wendy M states: Why is it that people like to ignore that we have the lowest infant and child mortality rates in the world? Could the higher incidence of heart disease be related to the fact that people live much longer than they normally would if nature had her way? Is it possible that more children are being diagnosed with diabetes because we're better at diagnostics?
Actually, according to the United Nations, Iceland has the honor of lowest infant mortality rates. The CIA disagrees and believes it is Singapore. You suggest that higher heart disease is due to our living longer than nature wants? Geneticists with the National Institute of Health puts our max lifespan at 125 years, which is presently as long as any human being has been recorded living. Life expectancy, or how long you can live predictably according to insurance statistics, is about 80 years. About 30% of our longevity is attributed to genetic makeup. And 70% depends on environment, diet, lifestyle, life choices. Dogs have a higher metabolic rate that is 7x faster than humans, and which is why dogs die sooner.
There is a limited number of times that cells can divide, referred to as the Hayflick Limit, before they can no longer divide, when the body can no longer heal itself and dies. However, in your heart example above, if you do not pay attention to the dangers of free radicals in your system, aging has nothing to do with your ability to die of a heart attack and cancer. Antioxidants from Vit C & E, or about 5-6 servings of fruits/veggies daily, are believed to protect the body from free radicals.
Modern medicine began taking off in the mid 1800s with the creation of the American Medical Assoc, its mission was to in part wipe out folk medicine and establish fee-based services in a controlled market. The National Center for Health Statistics, which started in 1956, has formally tracked US health statistics and blood glucose meter testing for Diabetes has been around since 1971. The pharmaceutical industry is always looking to expand their markets and now have their eyes increasingly on children. By lowering the recommended levels for cholesterol before drug companies suggest that doctors prescribe their drugs, they've now created a larger market to use their drugs. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar wasn't being done where other diseases are concerned.
Actually, according to the United Nations, Iceland has the honor of lowest infant mortality rates. The CIA disagrees and believes it is Singapore. You suggest that higher heart disease is due to our living longer than nature wants? Geneticists with the National Institute of Health puts our max lifespan at 125 years, which is presently as long as any human being has been recorded living. Life expectancy, or how long you can live predictably according to insurance statistics, is about 80 years. About 30% of our longevity is attributed to genetic makeup. And 70% depends on environment, diet, lifestyle, life choices. Dogs have a higher metabolic rate that is 7x faster than humans, and which is why dogs die sooner.
There is a limited number of times that cells can divide, referred to as the Hayflick Limit, before they can no longer divide, when the body can no longer heal itself and dies. However, in your heart example above, if you do not pay attention to the dangers of free radicals in your system, aging has nothing to do with your ability to die of a heart attack and cancer. Antioxidants from Vit C & E, or about 5-6 servings of fruits/veggies daily, are believed to protect the body from free radicals.
Modern medicine began taking off in the mid 1800s with the creation of the American Medical Assoc, its mission was to in part wipe out folk medicine and establish fee-based services in a controlled market. The National Center for Health Statistics, which started in 1956, has formally tracked US health statistics and blood glucose meter testing for Diabetes has been around since 1971. The pharmaceutical industry is always looking to expand their markets and now have their eyes increasingly on children. By lowering the recommended levels for cholesterol before drug companies suggest that doctors prescribe their drugs, they've now created a larger market to use their drugs. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar wasn't being done where other diseases are concerned.
You also have to factor in that the US is one of the largest countries WITHOUT a national health care system. The infant mortality rate in this country is as much of an issue of mothers not getting prenatal care for whatever reason (lack of insurance, mother is a drug addict, mother didn't know she was pregnant, 15 year old mother hiding it from her parents, etc.).
I was helping my son with his history homework today - and saw something shocking. Native Americans, in the 1960's, because their quality of healthcare was so poor, only had a life expectancy of around 45. Quality of health care that we receive has a lot to do with our "life expectancy". This country really, essentially, has the worst across all boards health care - which is why you see the wide differences between this country and other major countries.
I was helping my son with his history homework today - and saw something shocking. Native Americans, in the 1960's, because their quality of healthcare was so poor, only had a life expectancy of around 45. Quality of health care that we receive has a lot to do with our "life expectancy". This country really, essentially, has the worst across all boards health care - which is why you see the wide differences between this country and other major countries.
Dodger - 2 1/2 yo American Bulldog Mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Dodger/DCP_0106.jpg[/img]
RIP Loth 10 year old Husky/Keeshond/Shar pei mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Loth/DCP_0039.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Dodger/DCP_0106.jpg[/img]
RIP Loth 10 year old Husky/Keeshond/Shar pei mix
[img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/Spydre1/Loth/DCP_0039.jpg[/img]
Absolutely, of the 30 industrialized nations worldwide, the US has the most expensive healthcare system. It is twice more than the next highest country--Switzerland.
You're so right about lack of healthcare impacting on health and life expectancy. But it's not just the costs of care. Bad health impacts on our abilities to provide, work, care for our home, family, jobs, businesses and careers. Money is lost everywhere.
And just think, we do this, just to keep a chosen few wealthy. The healthcare playing field is fixed. The game needs to open up so everyone can play.
You're so right about lack of healthcare impacting on health and life expectancy. But it's not just the costs of care. Bad health impacts on our abilities to provide, work, care for our home, family, jobs, businesses and careers. Money is lost everywhere.
And just think, we do this, just to keep a chosen few wealthy. The healthcare playing field is fixed. The game needs to open up so everyone can play.
Esprit64, the conspiracy theories make you sound psychotic. I'm always up for a good conversation where I can learn something new, but I have to quit when the plot hatching comes out.
If you'd like to make your point using actual facts please continue, otherwise I need to go somewhere else and play nice.
If you'd like to make your point using actual facts please continue, otherwise I need to go somewhere else and play nice.
