Ready made raw feeds

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Nettle
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Nettle » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:55 am

Any open sores on a diabetic are a big red flag without adding a dog (cat, parrot...) Considering the other things dogs lick, raw food is not likely to add any dangers - your Dad should not be licked by anything (not kissed by babies either). I can understand his fears.

But that doesn't mean a whole change of regimen for your dog, and he can have his duck necks and other raw food any day your Dad isn't visiting.

IMO home cooked food sensibly chosen is still better than kibble.
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Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:28 am

Unfortunately swapping his food whenever dad comes to visit isn't feasible, as they live in the next road and we see each other often and I don't want to upset Merlin's belly. He's also concerned that my mum can't come out to walk Merlin with me because of contamination.

I'll look into good cooked food recipes instead.

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:34 pm

Right, I've got the ingrediants and the time, now just figuring out the recipes.

I've got lots of fresh kipper, canned salmon, turkey mince, lamb mince, chicken liver, eggs, brocoli, coconut, carrots, peas, brussel sprouts, celery, cottage cheese, goats milk and flours. He hates rice and white potato gives him wind, so we left those out. He isn't keen on sweet potato either.

I've read the break down should be this;

40% Protein – animal meat, seafood, eggs or dairy
10% Carbohydrates – grains and beans
50% Vegetables
Fat – from oil or meat
Calcium – crushed or powdered egg shells; a supplement
Fatty acids – cooked egg yolks, oatmeal, plant oils and other foods

So looking at that, would a meal be 40% meat, 10% carbs (need to think of where to get these from), and 50% any veg? I can blend the eggs whole for the shells for calcium, and he is good on oats so I can add those. Really don't want to make him unhealthy by not giving him enough of what he needs. It does seem like not alot of meat though, since his raw feed was 80% meat.

JudyN
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by JudyN » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:01 pm

No, it won't work like that, because meat isn't 100% protein - according to this site http://www.katie180.com.au/nutrition/pr ... oods-list/ beef, for instance, is only 27g protein. Though you do then have to remove that pesky water content from your sums...

I would do some more sums but need to go & do the half-hour of yoga I promised myself I'd do... back later!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

JudyN
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by JudyN » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:59 pm

Having found this site http://mydoggie.co.uk/homemade-dog-food-recipes/ I'm wondering though if the guide you found meant 40% meat rather than 40% protein...

I've just looked up the nutritional analysis of the chicken mince I buy: Water Content: 69.10g/100g Protein %:18.4g/100g Fat: 7.7g/100g Ash: 2.30g/100g Sodium: 0.134g/100g Crude Fibre: 0.20% w/w Calcium: 1340mg/kg Total Phosphorus: 790.0mg/Kg

Quick calculation, if you took out the water, the protein content would actually be 47%, and fat 20%.

Another thing that occurs to me is that the total amount of fruit and veg can vary enormously in a balanced diet - some raw feeders feed a lot, some don't feed any, but if they do, it's not normally considered when calculating the 80/10/10 balance. If you add a lot of veg to a homemade diet it will reduce the percentage of protein, but possibly you'd need to feed more - in the same way that if I took your balanced meal of meat and 2 veg and added another portion of veg, it would still be balanced despite a big drop in the percentage of protein.

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud and possibly not saying anything very helpful... it's been a long day!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:06 pm

I've been fiddling around with it and created two meals.

One is 40% measurement of Lamb Mince, spinach, eggs, eggshells, goats milk, coconut, olive oil, chicken liver (small amounts) and mackeral. 10% Coconut rice. 50% Brussel sprouts, carrots, broccoli, goats milk and cottage cheese all mushed. I am hoping I've got the protein amounts right.

The other is 40% Salmon, eggs, spinach. 10% coconut rice. 50% same veg mixture as the lamb.

Comparing it against those lists, I'm still confused! I would rather feed him more meat than veg, mainly because he is more likely to eat it. I gave him the lamb mix, and he ate the lamb and rice instantly then picked at the mushed veg.

JudyN
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by JudyN » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:49 pm

Thing is, if he has lots of veg, he'll need more food overall as veg is lower in calories, so the total amount of protein would stay the same even if the percentage goes down. For that reason, I think the veg is a bit of a red herring (pun intended!). I've found: 'A general rule is that dogs require 2 grams of high quality animal protein per kilogram of body weight per day.' It'd be interesting to see if the menu you've devised provides something close to that (apparently lamb is 25% protein). If so, I'd probably aim to give that much meat, then add the 'extras' (eggs, coconut oil, etc.) and maybe some carbs (raw feeders don't typically feed any), then add some veg on top of that, based on how much he'll eat. Remember that carnivores in the wild don't worry about the balance of their food if they stumble across a nest of eggs, or whether they should eat the carb-rich stomach contents of their prey.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:45 am

So every 100g of Lamb gives him 25g of protein. Then with the eggs that is another little bit.

He gets two chicken breasts of boiled chicken in the morning when we take him out, and occassionally some Lamb's Liver Cake (for recall). Need to factor that in aswell so I don't overdose the poor thing on energy!

He weighs 10.9kg, so he needs 22g of pure protein?

Shalista
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Shalista » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:34 am

holy crap 2 whole chicken breasts? bax weighs 11lbs and gets 1/3 of a chicken thigh once a day and nothing else. goes to show how dif dogs metabolisms work O.o
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:59 am

Yeah, it used to be one but then he got more difficult out and about and I needed more treats for things like trading, seeing dogs, recall. Boiled chicken is the only thing other than lamb's liver cake and cheese he responds to outside, but cheese isn't the best on his belly.

I thought it was too much so I asked my vets, and they said he's tip top condition and very, very strong. :roll:

We've got a dehydrator coming aswell now so I can hopefully replace the loss of his duck necks with a homemade chewy. Something that lasts longer than a few seconds but not as long as a rawhide, and is also healthy and is a part of his meals.

I am thinking that his daily foods should look like;

- Morning chicken breasts, then a chewy when home from his walk.
- Evening dinner (40% meaty rest veg and grain and eggs) in his kong. He doesn't eat much in the evenings since he's usually had a fair amount in the morning, about 100-200g would be more than enough and he'd likely leave some. He's not a greedy dog and will leave even things he loves if he's full, so I have that working in my favour to suss out the amounts.

I am hoping with the chicken breasts and chewy, which will be a big chunk of protein, his evening meal being more carbs would work well to settle him down and iron it out?

JudyN
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by JudyN » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:22 pm

He 'should' only need up to 327g per day in total, but 2 chicken breasts probably weigh about 500g, and that's just his breakfast! :shock: But, as Nettle always says, you have to feed the dog in front of you which means for Merlin, you can pretty well throw the rule book out the window :lol:

Again, his breakfast will provide way more protein than he 'should' need, but protein recommendations may well be based on kibble and not apply to home-made diets.

I really don't know if there's a good reason for carbs in home-cooked diets. But looking at the photos of home-made dog food, my feeling is that what you're planning is along the right lines - plenty of meat, a dollop of carbs, a dollop of veg, and a few extras like eggs, coconut oil, etc. I'm not even sure it has to be balanced any more than this, any more than my diet is :mrgreen:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:23 pm

I can assure you the morrissons own brand frozen chicken breasts don't weigh 500g for two, especially after cooking :lol:. Pack of 6 at 700g, so probably around 200g ish when the water is cooked out a bit. Its human grade, honest, we eat it too! :roll:

His poos today have unfortunately gone a bit soft, which is a real shame as on raw they were perfect and he stopped farting. Now he's a wind machine... I don't think the Lamb mix agreed with him, so he's had the salmon one today to see if it makes a difference.

Shalista
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Shalista » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:41 pm

also speaking from my own exp? as judy said watch the dog in front of you. for some reason bax has occasionally fluctuated weight while maintaining the same diet for reasons i couldnt figure out and i had to adjust the raw accordingly
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

JudyN
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by JudyN » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:18 am

His poos might have gone soft because he's not getting bone. You can get bone powder to add to their food that firms them up a treat, though I'm not sure if that counts as raw or not.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Lotsaquestions
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Re: Ready made raw feeds

Post by Lotsaquestions » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:39 am

Thanks Judy I'll look into bone powder. His poos were better today on the salmon, unfortunately his leg has gotten worse and he's in alot of pain so I can't tell if his energy level has increased / decreased.

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