Help should I spay??

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orien30
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Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

Hi,

I have a 2 and 1/2 year English Bulldog. She's gone through two heat cycles. She ended up having a false pregnancy and was very aggressive towards anyone outside of my husband and myself and towards much other dog. She's out of this stage now but I've seen a general anxiety emerge the last 3 months.

My vet recommended spaying to prevent future false pregnancies.

My concerns are she has behavioral issues to begin with including aggression and anxiety. Im reading mixed feedback about spaying a dog that is anxious/aggressive. She has not been aggressive fter the false pregnancy but has always had more aggressive tendencies than my other dog. She's still very anxious.
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

Spaying will prevent false pregnancy, but I'm not clear from your post whether she is aggressive all the time or just when in false pregnancy. I'd say get a positive reward-based behaviourist to assess the aggression and give you plans for helping her through this if it is a general anxiety. Surgery will only add to anxiety, but if she is naturally anxious then she isn't suitable breeding stock either - though that doesn't mean you have to spay, just that she isn't bred from.

We can help if you give us details of when and how she shows her aggression and what you do next, whether she is touchy with dogs, people or both, how she is with visitors to the home, and full details of her typical day and those things she likes to do best - she wakes up in the morning and thinks "I hope today that we...."

Also tell us what, when and how she is fed, and anything you look back at and think the aggression started from. Have you had her from new or was she a rescue?
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orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

So we've had her since a pup. She's always been hyper and playful. My husband and I lived in a small quiet house the first two years of her life. Out there she had trouble with jumping but we've really worked on this behavior. She would get to rough during play. My husband has since cut out rough play with her and that's reduced. The one aggressive behavior towards people was if someone came over, she would try to bite their heels when they left (this was in the backyard). We didn't really have too many people over inside the house.

Our older dog is 3. They have their problems here and there typically over bones or treats. We've found any triggers to these behaviors and have significantly decreased any fighting (ex. They've glad two incidents in about 4 to 5 months).

There was one aggressive incident that really was stressful. We drove from California to New York which was 2 to 3 hours a day in the car for 10 days. My husband gave them a treat and I believe a piece had fallen on the seat. The dogs got into a fight with both ending up with cuts on their faces (I was driving on the highway and both were in the backseat). It was near impossible to seperate.

We separated them the rest of the road trip. I would attribute this to stressful but for me it was pretty traumatic. The older dog has several health issues including epilepsy. Which reminds me she'd also growl and try to jump on the older one during a seizure. Again I am assuming out of fear. She's been almost seizure free for a year so it hadn't re-emerged.

So now we are living in a bigger house with multiple family members. She gets anxious over loud noises. We are downstairs and upstairs noises bother we. We try to keep a fan on. She also has anxiety over any verbal reprimand from a male. She will put her head down, shake and avoid them.

I work from home (which I didn't before) so I'm home with her all the time. I know dogs should not sleep in the bed but she shakes and begins to pace (anxiety) if she cant't.

Now getting to the false pregnancy she'd be aggressive if someone came in the house or the kitchen. She would try to bite heels when someone stepped over the gate to leave yhe room (we have cats and half the house is blocked for cats and half for dogs). We ended up blocking off the kitchen and entrance way. This stopped it.

After her false pregnancy she's calmed way down. The only incident I've seen is she charged at my brother we he tried climb over the gate but I stopped it. When we moved here he would bark at her jokingly but it upset her. They still seem to have an off relationship bit improving.


The other things she gets mad at seem territorial (we don't do these to prevent behaviors). She would get upset if I sit on the ground because both dogs want my lap, or if the older dog gets to go to the vet or sit in the back with me in the car. We've learned the triggers and prevent. I know her body too before she escalates.

I hope this is enough details to help. Sorry it's so lengthy.
orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

She also gets anxious for visitors. I keep her downstairs until she's adjusted to the noise and then will bring her up.

I really think there's some environmental changes she hasn't adapted to yet. However she's getting better and able to be around more visitors for longer period of times.

I just have pressure from the family about the aggression during the false pregnancy or to medicate her for anxiety.

I don't want to do either. Some of this seems hormonal and some an adjustment to get new environmemt.
orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

Sorry one more thing. They used to not sleep in the bed. The older dog had surgery to have a growth removed. I had to keep them seperate for 3 weeks. I slept with the older dog and my husband with the younger. Now she panics if she's not in the bed.
JudyN
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by JudyN »

How long have you been in the new house for?
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

Now you tell us that there is another dog - so we need full details of this one please - and that one of them has seizures - not sure which. This information is very important - can you think of any other background you haven't told us yet? I know it's hard to remember everything but we need to know as much as possible.

We still need to know what she actually does when she is aggressive, and what happens next.

We also need food details.

The more you tell us the more we can help.
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orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

Hi,

I've been in the new house about 3 months.

The other dog is Roxy. She's older (3) and has eplipesy.

The dog I'm concerned about is foxy (2.5). When she is aggressive she shakes and growls with Roxy. Then with Roxy if it's not stopped she will bite her face. This behavior only emerges over things like bones or treats or if they both want to sit on my lap.

Again we are super careful to stop any behaviors and modify antecedents but those things above would cause it.

For people she will charge and then try to bite the heel of the foot.
This only happens when someone enters the house and then goes to pass over the gate into the other part of the house. She usually does not shake or bark or growl.

With my brother specifically she'll stand in front of the gate trying to prevent him to pass but she's wagging her tail. He'll pet her. Then when he tries to cross she tries to bite his heel. We pull her back to prevent this and redirect her to sit. She will get a treat for sitting when she let's him cross.

If she's aggressive we immediately seperate her from the other dog or if it's people in the house I bring her downstairs with me and seperate her from other people. She either had a small verbal reprimand or shake of a can (noise to stop the behavior).

We do use lots of treats and social praise for positive behavior.

The other dog (Roxy) is overweight and has gained weight since going on phenobaribtal. She will eat first (even though we have 2 food dishes and feed at the same time. The dishes are put next to each other).

Roxy was 6 months when we got Foxy. They were friendly with each other after the second day. Roxy was very babied as the first dog before I got Foxy. I slept with her every night to potty training her.

Roxy was socialized more than Foxy. I admit I didn't not socialize Foxy as much because we had abother dog for her to play with. That is one mistake I feel I made with this dog. She's taken more
Time to adjust to people. Roxy is very social and friendly.

I hope that helps more.
Last edited by orien30 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

I should add she's fearful of men when they are upset. Anytime a man raises his voice she shakes, puts her head down and runs to me. She's never had that reaction to women.

She's never been mistreated so I'm not sure why she has the male fear. I'm pretty sure she respects my husband as alpha and gets so excited to see him. She's never listened to me as well. I do say when they were puppies I did not always agree with his discipline. He has a very firm voice that will stop them. He believed when they physically fight they should get a slap on the nose or bottom to make them stop. He no longer does any of this as she's developed these emotional issues. He truly loves her like a baby. This would happen very seldom but I think it's worth bringing up for a full picture.

He can't even slightly raise his voice around her or even be upset after a day of work. Any stress from him and she shakes.

She was adopted around 10 weeks. Both dogs from same breeder and same breed.

Roxy has no emotional or aggressive issues. Both unspayed.
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

Thank you for all that lovely extra information - that's really helpful!

Spaying is a side issue and won't contribute anything to behaviour change.

Sounds as if you have a very sensitive dog. You will both need to work on keeping her calm. it was good to stop the rough 'play'. That's never a great idea with dogs. Have a look at our pinned thread Exercise the Mind for fun things you can do together. Even bulldogs like to sniff about, and tearing boxes up is the best fun!


Although your husband has ceased shouting at her and striking her (it doesn't have to be hard hitting to frighten her - even the threat is intimidating), she is scared he will start to "attack" her again. He can't make this ground up in a hurry, or by doing anything except giving her plenty of space and letting her choose when to interact with him. The alpha pack leader idea is way out of date and based on false science, so no need to continue with that in any way. This is why she has generalised to fear of all men especially when they yell. What's done is done so don't beat yourselves up about it, just understand that it wasn't a great idea.

You have been on the right track by seeing that there are no items left around for the dogs to get possessive over. They should not be fed together.

Dogs get very spooked when other dogs or people have seizures. Two female dogs of similar type kept together often fall out and take a great deal of management, but it can usually be done. But when one starts to fit, the other must be taken away immediately, and they should not be left alone together.


We still need to know the dogs' typical day especially with regard to food and exercise, and what you are feeding.
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

Regarding the heel nipping - it would need a behaviourist there at the time to see if this is fear, entertainment or both. Meanwhile you must stop her ever having the opportunity to do it, quietly and without fuss, and reward her for staying calm and not lunging. Do this by having a house lead on in the home and controlling how close she gets to people. If the people can't be trusted to leave her alone, then she must be in another room with something nice to do, such as a stuffed kong to lick.

Out walking, don't let people get near her, anticipate and lead her away from any potential for nipping and don't forget to reward her for being calm.
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orien30
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by orien30 »

Thank you for taking the time for the detailed response.

They get feed once in the morning and evening. The food dishes are left out for them to eat out of. They eat a dry food brand called Fromm Family. It's two dishes together.

We will do a morning walk. Roxy can only walk a short distance so I usually bring both out then bring Roxy back in and take Foxy out for about a 15 minute walk.

Depending on the weather we will play outside in the afternoon with a ball or Frisbee.

They both sleep a lot of the day. I'll take breaks from work to pet them and rub their backs or belly several times throughout the day. Typically one at a time and it's which dog approaches me.


The heel biting except for my brother only occurred during the false pregnancy.

For safety I do keep her on a lead with visitors until she's calm enough to see them. Then I will have them give her treats and pet her. She actually spent two hours with my nephew last weekend and was fantastic so I know we are making progress :)

I think my family still fears how she was during a false pregnancy although I feel I know the signs now and would be better prepared. As long as certain areas of the house are blocked off she is okay.

She is of course terrified of the vet. I end up carrying her into the exam room. She shakes and sits near or behind me. Last time the vet got down on the floor with her instead of trying an exam table. My fear is if she's left to be spayed at this point it will be traumatic for her. I don't think emotionally it's the right call.
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

OK, here is some work to do :)

Stop leaving food down. That is very very very stressful for dogs. Feed each in a separate place, and as soon as they stop eating and walk away, whether leaving food or not, take the bowls up.

I have just discovered a major stresser that I'd overlooked. The names sound so alike the dogs won't know which one you are talking to or calling. So you need to make a slight change to one of the names. Most pet dogs end up with two or three names anyway so there may already be a name you can transfer.

You need to fit another walk into your day.

It would be good if you could work on the going-to-the-vet trauma. Have you any idea why she is so scared? Did something happen once at the vet's?
De-sensitise in baby steps - drive to the vet, park, reward the dog, go home. Repeat for a few times. When she is calm in the car park, take her for a walk round nearby, back in the car, reward, go home. When she is fine with that, go into the waiting room, reward, straight out and go home. Vets and vet nurses are often very helpful with de-sensitising, so you might be able to get one to come out to the car park, give her some kind words (no petting no treating) and you reward her and go home.
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Nettle
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Re: Help should I spay??

Post by Nettle »

I have to split my reply because the stupid Board times out.

When dog can go in waiting room without fear - this could take MONTHS but you must do it - then arrange with the staff a time they are not busy so you can take her into a consulting room, reward, go home. You see where we are going here? If you take baby steps and go at her pace, she will eventually desensitise to an extent although probably not completely, depending if she has bad memories or if she is just generally fearful of new things. Even we, who know what is going on, are nervous when we go into hospital for planned treatment, so you can empathise with her as she is overwhelmed with sensory information, none of which is familiar. You take these steps to make it familiar.

I think you are right that taking her in for surgery and leaving her there at this stage is likely to push her over the edge. You can spay any time, and you don't even need to spay at all. I don't spay mine. Many people find spayed ladydogs more convenient, but it isn't a necessity.
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