hyperactivity caused by high protein diet

[azaelia]

hi, i need help!
last week i adopted a 9month old uncastrated male gsd with no tail. we were told at the time that they didn't know how he lost his tail.

we brought him home sunday evening and he was fine, very friendly, very confident and trotted around the house sniffing everything. he was very well behaved and perfectly toilet trained. although he didn't pee for a good 12+ hours we put that down to nerves. that night we fed him Orijen kibble, for those of you who dont know it's atleast 35% protein. our previous dog had digestion issues his whole life and Orijen was the only food we found that he was healthy on, so we assumed it was a good food and intended our next dog to spend his life on it.

anyway, he was fed Orijen again monday morning and evening. he also had some james wellbeloved treats for training which are also quite high in protein but i'm not sure how high off the top of my head. i think it was monday night when he started chasing his tail. it was already a bit scabby and the fur was short, we were told that that was from his previous life and will begin to grow back. we had a ruff night with him, the chasing wasnt too bad at this point. he'd spin on the spot and when he finally grabbed it he'd sit on the floor and hold it in his mouth, no chewing, just holding. i'll attach a link to a youtube video of him.

we took him to the vet on tuesday because it was a bit concerning. his anal glands we full to bursting and infected so he was medicated for that. we continued with the orijen morning and night, increasing his meals as the vet said he's a little underweight. we got him some liver from the supermarket and dried it in the oven as treats, we did the same with chicken breast and he had loads. over the week his tail chasing got worse and worse, he also got more hyper and his attention span was practically none existant. he'd be totally fine in the car and on walks it was like there was nothing wrong with him. his recall was great. but as soon as we got home he'd start on his tail even before we unlocked the back door. he was having 3 hour long walks per day and chasing a frisbee most of the time. we also noticed he'd tremble when he was going for his tail, it felt like he was shivering, pent up energy maybe? stress?

his tail chasing got worse and worse, especially in the mornings and the only thing we could do was restrain him as he wouldn't listen or take treats.

we were advised to put him on a raw diet so on friday evening he went onto a basic raw chicken diet from www.Nutriment.co we also got some fish skins for him as treats and cow throats for chews. although we continued to give him Orijen for training (which was getting less and less due to his worsening attention span) on saturday he had the cow throat, but no Orijen. it was saturday that we finally had had enough and decided to take him back to the shelter. it was an increadibly hard descicion as i was crazy about him! but we hadn't eaten for ages, we were exhausted and i'd done nothing but cry for days! we drove for 2.5 hours to take him back. when we got there we spoke to a lady who we hadn't spoken to before. we'd been intouch with the kennels a few times about his problems and they seemed so suprised about his behavior as they said he'd never been like that before. the lady who took him off us said that he was put up for adoption as he'd mutilated his tail in his last home and had started to do the same to the other dogs in the household. she said that when they took him they put him on a tripe only diet and he had stopped tail chasing and calmed down in 3 days to a week!! (to say i was angry that we hadn't been told this before is a major understatement) we made the descision to leave him anyway and said we'll give him a few days and if he calms again then we'll try again. despite the £150 adoption fee, £90 in petrol to collect him, £100 in vet bills and another £90 to take him back. then ANOTHER £90 to pick him up next week if we choose to try again. ( only mentioned that so you can get some idea of how committed to him we are)

i called to day and they said, although he's chasing a bit he is calming. he now hasn't been on orijen for 2.5 days.

i also think it might be relevent that his wee STUNK, it was so strong and (ithought) quite dark in colour.

SO the big question is does anyone else have any experiance with high protien diets? dogs that are intolerant to it or have kidney issues? we really want him back and are willing to deal with an over excited puppy who needs work, maybe some attention seeking issues. and our last shepherd had (different) lifelong dietry needs so were no stranger to it. i did notice that 1st thing in the morning i'd let him out for a wee and he'd start chasing in the door way, i'd just walk away and let him get on with it for a few mins, when i got back he was lying by the back door waiting for me, i'd let him back in and he'd start again. but just leaving him to get on with it in the house never worked, i only noticed that twice so maybe it isn't relevent. he did sometimes stop and lie down for a min then start again. but the panting was terrible, i'm suprised he didn't collaps or something.

i just wanted to know about other peoples experiances with this sort of thing, we want to be sure before we try again with Ollie, its not fair on him or us (not to mention expensive) to go and get him and have to give him back again! were willing to try training ect but if his behavior will never change then i dont want to be hurt again.

i know it was a long post but thanks for reading, i really appreciate it.

p.s the vid is still uploading to youtube, i'll post it when it's done

[Nettle]

GSDs are particularly prone to tail-chasing as an OCD behaviour. The repetitive action releases endorphins and becomes addictive. GSDs are also very prone to other addictive behaviours.

I am not clear about what this one has for a tail. You say early on that he has no tail and then that he has. Please would you clarify so we can help more.

Stinking wee is not natural and implies health issues. Given that he also had full anal glands, it doesn't look as if the shelter has done much prior to rehoming him to you. There may well be other veterinary issues. For instance, GSDs commonly have digestive issues too,(I see you already have some experience of this) some linked to endocrine disorders. Up to you if you want to continue and find out more via your own vet or return him the to the shelter for full health treatment. My opinion is that the shelter is blaming a raft of pre-existing problems on the food you have given the dog.

Pure tripe isn't a balanced diet. You can't feed him only that all his life.

[azaelia]

hi, thanks for replying. no he has only a short tail, just a bit longer than what a normally docked tail would be.

i know he can't stay on tripe his whole life, we were going to research low protien foods. we know about gsd ocd and we're praying it's something else. he went back to the shelter last night. we were considering trying again with this diet, andthen moving onto a more balanced diet when we get to know him more so we can better see the changes in his personality.

i spoke to an indepentant dog trainer and the first thing she said was to get him onto a low protien diet asap and that should help. we've done some research on hyper dogs and many people say that they've seen dramatic changes in theyre dogs behavior, i'm hoping for some more information and personal experiances on this sort of thing.

he's the most loving affectionate funny dog we've met and we want to fight for him, were just scared of going through the week of hell again!

many thanks

[azaelia]

http://youtu.be/Kmpn3GTU0tE

this is the video of Ollie, he pants so so heavily and drools like mad, to the point where as he turns u can see the drool flying off his tail, or if he stops for a second and wags his tail it flys everywhere. that part would be funny if it wasn't so distressing to watch. the only source of hope is that if he was just as bad on this raw food diet the shelter say theyve put him on then his tail would be in a far worse condidtion as in the shelter i assume he'll be left to his own devises for long periods of time.
any thoughts on the link of hyperactivity/self harm to food allergies or intollerances would be greatly appreciated

[rnor1120]

The video wasn't working for me, but this very much sounds like a dog with OCD that needs to be medicated. Prozac, Xanax, amitryptalline, all drugs that you can talk to your vet about (these are commonly used ones in the US, I can't speak for Eurpoe).

[azaelia]

Hi, sorry about that, I've changed the permission on the video so it should work now.

Is ocd in dogs difficult to treat? Or will he be like it for the rest of his life? Poor boys only a 9month old

[JudyN]

I'm not an expert, but I would guess the protein in the diet isn't a problem at all.

There was a similar case shown on a UK TV programme recently: http://dogs.channel4.com/difficult-dogs/ Scroll down and read about Max the GSD. A regular daily routine plus building up associations with different activities seemed to be the key. He had definitely improved by the end of the programme (not sure how many weeks had passed), but this was still going to be a long-term commitment. Drugs may play a part in the treatment, but you'd need to discuss that with your vet/vet behaviourist.

[azaelia]

Thanks for replying, Tbh we're expecting it to be behaviour, but we find it strange that (apparently) he stopped doing it when switched to a special diet in kennels. The people who have him at the moment are a good kennels, my trainer (independent) knows them and she says it's a good place. And they seem genuine then they told us about his previous life and his progress with him. We're a bit put off that we were given a different background to him when we took him but the lady who we spoke to has a son in hospital who is seriously ill so I'm sure that under the stress she must have mistakes are possible.

We'll do some more research and see how we feel. Hopefully we'll try him again. He's certainly worth it.

[rnor1120]

Exercise, routine, consistent training, good quality diet, and in extreme cases behavior modification drugs. GSD are a working breed - high energy, high intelligence. Couple that with stress from being in a kennel, you get boredom and anxiety, the recipes for OCD-type behaviors to develop (genetics also plays a role). Among the things mentioned, allowing enough time to decompress and adjust from kennel life is super important.

Sorry this is so brief, I'm actually at work right now .

[azaelia]

I've just been thinking. A few times I'd let him into the garden for a wee and he'd start. I'd leave him to get on with it for a few mins and go out of sight. When I came back to let him in he'd be lying by the back door, ignoring his tail, waiting for me. I'd then let him back in and get half way through saying "good boy" and he'd start chasing again!

Another time we were trying to get him to settle so we could sleep, he wouldn't stop chasing. I went into the bathroom for a sec and he followed me, again chasing. He stopped for a drink from his bowl, so I took the opportunity to jump into bed, turn the lights out and pretend to sleep. I heard him come into the room, stand still for a second and then he lay down and went to sleep!

I'm beginning to think it's attention seeking! He doesn't do it in the kennels because there's no1 to get attention from. The only time I expect he sees someone is when he's being fed or walked. Talking to the kennels tomorrow and I'll ask how much the he gets with people there.

What do u guys think? Will this be easier to sort than proper ocd?