Fresh meat

[delladooo]

Evening all, this post has a bit of practicality behind it but a lot of it is just fact finding at the minute.

I've read through the post we have on raw feeding because I would really like to start doing that at some point but I'm very conscious of the fact that we currently do not have the freezer room - the one we have has three drawers for all our food and we don't have space to put another. So, hypothetical questions:

I've seen a lot of people say that chicken is a good place to start but I was always told not to give dogs chicken bones because they splinter so that's the trick here? Is it just cooked bones and not raw or something else entirely? Also, with a raw diet should it be mostly meat or bone? The ratio is often talked about and chicken wings mentioned but they do have quite a bit of meat on for something so small For something larger should it be cut up or more of a chunk - I suppose this depends on the dog?

Should/ can the meat be cooked or should it be left raw and if you freeze it, can it be fed from the freezer / slightly frozen or does it need to thaw completely? Can veg be given - I've seen people say yes to veg and no so it is a case of if the dog wants it?

If you do raw feed, is it an 'all or thing' type thing so the treats should be raw too? This is where the more practical side comes into it; if I keep Laufey on a kibble diet, can 'real food' be mixed in too? He's had some raw steak and he enjoyed that and sucked the insides out of a (cooked) lamb leg - he didn't eat any of the bone or try to crunch, just ate the marrow which I thought would be okay and hasn't done any harm. I also have some kidney in the oven to dehydrate (although I think it might be more cooking than dehydrating) and I did offer him some raw but he didn't take it off me, just sniffed it. I have some left that I've put in the freezer so he can try it raw again and if not I'll give it to Luna's mum to try.

Sorry for the list of questions but I'm currently trying to assess if I have the space to raw feed and if I have the stomach / patience to follow it through

[JudyN]

I've seen a lot of people say that chicken is a good place to start but I was always told not to give dogs chicken bones because they splinter so that's the trick here? Is it just cooked bones and not raw or something else entirely?

Raw chicken bones are fine - never give cooked bones of any sort, as they will splinter.

Also, with a raw diet should it be mostly meat or bone?The ratio is often talked about and chicken wings mentioned but they do have quite a bit of meat on for something so small

80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other offal is the usual guideline. I can't remember what the proportions are in chicken wings - when starting out I personally think you're best starting on minced chicken (including bone) as your dog's stomach will gradually increase the acid levels it needs to digest bone. But plenty of people start out by offering the occasional chicken wing.

For something larger should it be cut up or more of a chunk - I suppose this depends on the dog?

The most important thing is that it should be large (or small) enough that they can't choke on it - I wouldn't give Jasper chicken necks & maybe not wings, but for a smaller dog they're fine. You don't have to cut up larger bits at all. Some people give even a small dog a whole chicken, wait until the dog has had enough, take the carcasse away, rinse it under the tap and give it to them the next day. Having a large chunk provides more 'work' for your dog, which is good - though a dog new to raw feeding might not cope.

I wouldn't dream of taking a half-eaten carcasse off Jasper, and I'd worry about doing that with any dog to be honest. If they're not a guarder it might turn them into one.

Should/ can the meat be cooked or should it be left raw and if you freeze it, can it be fed from the freezer / slightly frozen or does it need to thaw completely? Can veg be given - I've seen people say yes to veg and no so it is a case of if the dog wants it?

The meat shouldn't be cooked. Some people feed it straight from the freezer with no problems. There's three camps as regards veg: (1) dogs don't need it at all, (2) they benefit from veg, (3) they benefit, but only if it's pureed or lightly cooked. I don't think anyone really knows the answer, though plenty of people think they do!

If you do raw feed, is it an 'all or thing' type thing so the treats should be raw too? This is where the more practical side comes into it; if I keep Laufey on a kibble diet, can 'real food' be mixed in too?

Again, people differ in their views. Some say the kibble will slow the digestion of the raw down so the raw can develop harmful levels of bacteria, others happily feed kibble for one meal and raw for another and have healthy dogs. I still give Jasper kibble for treats, and he gets quite a few leftovers, including pizza crusts & cooked meat.

Your biggest hurdle will be freezer space, I think, unless you have easy access to a supplier/friendly butcher. You can often get freezers cheaply or free - have you room to put an additional one anywhere?

[Swanny1790]

If you do raw feed, is it an 'all or thing' type thing so the treats should be raw too?

I hope this doesn't lead to further confusion. If you ask 3 people the best way to feed your dogs you'll likely get 4 answers, and no two people will agree on any one of them.

My approach is just the opposite. My dogs' primary ration is very high quality kibble (http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... -food-dry/. For treats and especially for supplementation during the dog mushing season I give raw fish or meat, the specie of meat depending on the fat level compared to outside temperature and body condition.

It works for me, but if I were only tending a couple of pet dogs, I'd probably switch it around 100%, feeding primarily raw and treating with whatever is handy that they really like.

[delladooo]

Raw chicken bones are fine - never give cooked bones of any sort, as they will splinter.

Good to know, we probably did well with the bone we gave him as it was rather large and he did only have puppy teeth at the time - he just sucked the marrow out

when starting out I personally think you're best starting on minced chicken (including bone) as your dog's stomach will gradually increase the acid levels it needs to digest bone.

I might try see what I can get hold of then and maybe try giving it him more then, possibly.

I more than likely could take it off Laufey - he's let me take food before and toys he will regularly thrust at me because he wants to play but at the same time I wouldn't test the theory and upset him.

The meat shouldn't be cooked. Some people feed it straight from the freezer with no problems. There's three camps as regards veg: (1) dogs don't need it at all, (2) they benefit from veg, (3) they benefit, but only if it's pureed or lightly cooked. I don't think anyone really knows the answer, though plenty of people think they do!

If we were to move to raw we would definitely continue with veggies - whether they make a difference or not he likes them and regularly gets things with the rabbits at their feed time

Again, people differ in their views. Some say the kibble will slow the digestion of the raw down so the raw can develop harmful levels of bacteria, others happily feed kibble for one meal and raw for another and have healthy dogs. I still give Jasper kibble for treats, and he gets quite a few leftovers, including pizza crusts & cooked meat.

Your biggest hurdle will be freezer space, I think, unless you have easy access to a supplier/friendly butcher. You can often get freezers cheaply or free - have you room to put an additional one anywhere?

For now it would be likely that the raw would be an extra and the kibble his main diet - we simply do not have the space for another freezer as much as I would love one, eventually I'd love to get both the dog and the cats onto raw, one of the cats is practically on raw anyway as she eats kibble but not her wet food, preferring to go and catch mice - eats the heads - and birds other the other cat is a bit useless on the mouse front, bless him. There is a butcher just around the corner that I'm thinking I'm going to go talk to, he's so close that I could go every day if need be but not that often would be preferable.

I hope this doesn't lead to further confusion. If you ask 3 people the best way to feed your dogs you'll likely get 4 answers, and no two people will agree on any one of them.

I completely agree with this, but figured this was a good place to get some general raw food advice, I was looking at a site on the web but she was very only RMB and offal and lots of variety, she also mentioned rabbit a lot (the only thing I absolutely could never feed Laufey as we keep rabbits and could not face doing that.

He's currently on vet's kitchen http://www.vetskitchen.co.uk/vets-kitchen-for-dogs and was on the puppy one until this time, I''ve tried him on the salmon one which they only do in adult, he seems to like it well enough and it has a very high meat content. They're an English company so aren't on DFA but they are on the UK equivalent (http://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/) but I'm not sure it's as reliable.

On a related note, the kidney I was doing for him is mostly dehydrated (maybe slightly cooked but not bad for a first go) and whilst he wouldn't eat it raw he does like it dehydrated

[Sweetie's Human]

If you have a butcher that close, it might still be a possibility without taking too much freezer space, it just may not be the cheapest way of doing it.

Laufey is a pugx right? I feed my pug raw and, although I do make up about 6 weeks worth at a time, it's mainly so I only feel sick from the offal smell once every six weeks! Sweetie gets about 120g to 150g of raw food each night, and just a frozen kong in the mornings and I make up three of those every few days.

120g of meat, bone and offal is very small. If you made up a week's worth at a time, it really wouldn't take up much room at all. If I get time later I'll pull 7 of her meals out of the freezer and post a photo so you can see what I mean. A lot of people who feed raw and give you advice here have large dogs or multiple dogs (a generalisation, I know, but it's how it seems to me) and so it is will take a lot more space for them than for us. For example, Judy's Jasper is a lurcher and would probably need 4 times as much food as Laufey or Sweetie. You may find that you can just keep a weeks worth of food in the fridge and not freeze at all.

Also, if you make friends with your butcher you may be able to get bits and pieces either free or very cheap. Dogs don't care if it's not fillet steak

Sweetie loves carrots, so I do give her the odd one, but that's more for entertainment than anything else. I did grate carrots into her food for a few batches, but I don't think it really benefitted her (just my opinion - Swanny is right - nobody agrees on this completely). I'm sure you've read that some veges are bad for dogs (eg onions, tomatoes, etc) so definitely avoid those regardless. She also loves nori sheets (seaweed). She always WANTS what I'm cutting up, but often spits veg back out.

Re frozen vs defrosted - I don't think it matters. We feed Sweetie her meals thawed, and her recreational bones and kongs frozen.

I say give it a go if you can.

[delladooo]

Laufey is a pugx right? I feed my pug raw and, although I do make up about 6 weeks worth at a time, it's mainly so I only feel sick from the offal smell once every six weeks! Sweetie gets about 120g to 150g of raw food each night, and just a frozen kong in the mornings and I make up three of those every few days.

Also, if you make friends with your butcher you may be able to get bits and pieces either free or very cheap. Dogs don't care if it's not fillet steak

Sweetie loves carrots, so I do give her the odd one, but that's more for entertainment than anything else. I did grate carrots into her food for a few batches, but I don't think it really benefitted her (just my opinion - Swanny is right - nobody agrees on this completely). I'm sure you've read that some veges are bad for dogs (eg onions, tomatoes, etc) so definitely avoid those regardless. She also loves nori sheets (seaweed). She always WANTS what I'm cutting up, but often spits veg back out.

Re frozen vs defrosted - I don't think it matters. We feed Sweetie her meals thawed, and her recreational bones and kongs frozen.

He is yes, he's around 7 /7.5 kg last time I checked and should be levelling out, it could well be possible for it to work for us if this is the case. We've known the butchers for years although I have no idea how well my mum actually knows them, I don't 'know' them as such but she might - my uncle used to go in a lot, I'm not sure about now. Laufey does the splitting things out too - it's very funny. He has to try everything and usually swallows the first bit whether he likes it or not so you have to give him two little bits, he'll just swallow the first and then think about the second, some he likes and some he splits out with a little tongue action and everything. I don't know if it's made funnier by the fact that he has "proper" lips too - they're very human to look at - I put it down to his little underbite

I would likely thaw Laufey's food if we do go this route, I'm not sure if I would freeze his kong. We tried it once and it had banana in it but he didn't like it, I presume it was the banana he didn't like as he wouldn't touch it even after it thawed so maybe if it was something he liked it'd interest him

[Sweetie's Human]

OK. This is what one week of pug food looks like on a standard sized dinner plate. Not much hey.

I should also just clarify that although I do balance each meal (ie meat, bone, offal, fish in roughly the right amounts in each bag), you don't actually need to as long as over time they are balanced. So you could go a few days with no offal, then give him a bit of extra offal later in the week. I just find it easier to get it roughly balanced while I'm doing a batch, bag it, freeze it, then grab a bag out each night for the next day without having to think about what she's already had this week.

[Sweetie's Human]

Oops I think our posts crossed over there.

Aren't pugs little clowns at meal time?!

Try a couple of chunks of meat in his kong and plug the end with a bit of sardine and freeze it. Guaranteed happy pug. My clingy girl actually looks forward to me going to work each morning knowing she'll get one of these

Maybe ask the butcher if he's got a kidney, and any offcuts like beef skirt and grab a few chicken wings or necks and give that a go for a week. Only one way to find out for sure if it's do-able

[delladooo]

Definitely, he doesn't look overly pug and in many ways doesn't act very pug-ish either but then he has some very pug traits, for example he can be a right little lap dog and pushes his way in, he's also very comical with food and will throw it around before eating it

That doesn't seem too much at all! It would probably fit in our freezer as it is currently but possibly would need a bit of a jiggle. I'll definitely try stuff in his kong and maybe giving it a go for a week but my mum insists he's fine as he is and to keep him on kibble, which would be easier I suppose but if it's better and cheaper I don't see the problem I might go speak to our butcher next week and see how it goes

[JudyN]

For example, Judy's Jasper is a lurcher and would probably need 4 times as much food as Laufey or Sweetie.

I wish He gets just under 1kg per day

[delladooo]

He gets just under 1kg per day

Not sure that would be feasible for us!

Couple more questions -
Laufey has a runny eye but it's only one so I'm not sure it's an allergy, could raw help this, allergy or otherwise?
He's also develloped a very ginger muzzle from where he licks it and gets food in it and what have you, would raw help this? (And as a side note are there any foods that make this worse?)

[Sweetie's Human]

he can be a right little lap dog and pushes his way in

Yep, sounds like a pug to me!

That doesn't seem too much at all!

I should probably qualify this by saying that this photo only shows evening meals. I have two other small tupperware containers in the fridge - one with chopped up heart or whatever we're using that week, and one with a tin of sardines, and I use these to make up her kongs that she gets in the mornings. These are much smaller than her evening meals.

The other qualification I'd give is that Sweetie is a dopey 8yo pug with short bursts of puppiness. She walks about 2km per day, plus games in the backyard (chasing, etc). Laufey being so young and active may need more food.

I do still think it's possible for you because he's small, but I think you may need to give him something more like 350g total a day (incl kongs if you go that way). And of course just watch his weight when you start him on raw to see if you need to increase or decrease the amount you feed. It really is trial and error and I'm sure you know every dog is different.

Keep us posted regardless.

[Sweetie's Human]

For example, Judy's Jasper is a lurcher and would probably need 4 times as much food as Laufey or Sweetie.

I wish He gets just under 1kg per day

And here I was thinking perhaps I was exaggerating (in fact, I wrote 500g first up and changed it!)...

I think energy levels and amount of exercise affect this greatly too.

[Sweetie's Human]

He gets just under 1kg per day

Not sure that would be feasible for us!

Couple more questions -
Laufey has a runny eye but it's only one so I'm not sure it's an allergy, could raw help this, allergy or otherwise?
He's also develloped a very ginger muzzle from where he licks it and gets food in it and what have you, would raw help this? (And as a side note are there any foods that make this worse?)

Another cross-over of posts - sorry. We're on opposite sides of the globe but on this thread at the same time

Pugs generally do get goopy eyes because they protrude so much. If his eyes are very pug-ish it may be normal, but if it's a new thing maybe get him checked out in case.

Not sure on the ginger muzzle so won't even try to answer.

Sweetie's ear and skin infections have cleared up, but I don't know how much of this to attribute to drugs (short-term), how much to attribute to raw feeding since we started feeding her raw pretty much right away when we got her 2 years ago.

My own personal opinion is that it probably won't hurt, so why not try? As I said, if you think something is properly wrong, take him to the vet. But for overall wellbeing I really do think that raw feeding is good for their health.

Ps - Regardless of what you choose to do, Laufey's lucky to have you if you're giving this much thought to his food. It shows a level of caring that all dogs deserve, but not all get.

[delladooo]

Oh god, don't tell me he needs even more food! I'm pretty sure to begin with he'd see it as a novelty and just eat everything I gave him (except maybe kidney, that didn't go down well raw)

He is definitely a bugger for wanting cuddles, he'll push his face in under your arm and won't stop until you move it for him he also does this thing with toys where he drops them on your knee for you to play with him and if you just put it on the floor or let go of it he shoves it right back at you! I'm raising a pest

I definitely want to give raw a go and see how it goes, if his eye stops (brilliant as he doesn't like me trying to get the gunk out of his fur) then that's good and the loss of the ginger would be brilliant too but if it doesn't work for us he can stay on a high quality kibble I suppose, I'll see how feasible it is at the local butchers and work out how much it would cost etc. and then go from there.

That's definitely true, not all dogs get the basics they need. My mum says he's spoilt and I think about it too much but to balance it he's my baby and I'd rather spend money / time / resources on him than stuff I don't need. Although I freely admit he is spoilt