I've basically reached the end of my rope with Cricket. Maybe it's just because I'm stressed myself, but her anxiety issues are absolutely maddening. I've been dealing with her nose-rubbing and teeth grinding since I started fostering her last May. I could look past all of those things if it wasn't for her weird bathroom habits. When I first started fostering her, she used to refuse to go to the bathroom. She went more than 24 hours without peeing once or twice. I chalked it up to her new surroundings, new housemate, lack of training, etc. She eventually started urinating a few times throughout the day, but it was like pulling teeth to get her to pee. It would take up to thirty minutes of walking around for her to finally pee, which isn't always possible to do. Right as I was leaving town after graduating she (of course) was peeing almost immediately upon being taken out like normal. Even when I bunked with some family members before finally settling into my new apartment here, she'd pee fairly quickly upon being taken out. Now, we're pretty much back to square one. She's not refusing to pee completely, just refusing to pee outside. If she's not on a long walk, she won't pee. Rather, she's taken to urinating all over my bathroom floor over and over and over again. Her nose is scabbed, her teeth grind at night, and my floor smells like piss. I know the right thing to do is increase the obedience training I do with her, but she's so food motivated that she'll refuse to listen if I dont have food with me.
At this point, I'm tempted to make sure she doesn't have a urinary tract infection and start her on anxiolytics. Chronic stress is not baring well for either of us and Chance suffers because he picks up on our stress.
Anxiety
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Fundog
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Re: Anxiety
Wow. I do not envy you in the least. Go with your heart. You're right-- chronic stress only makes it all worse. If I were in your place I would probably be willing to try medication too. For some dogs, medication is warranted. Best of luck, whatever you decide. xx
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
Re: Anxiety
I was thinking about this yesterday... Some humans who suffer depression/anxiety need medication to cope with life - possibly just for the short term, but for some, permanently. And they can then carry on and live a normal fulfilling life. Though ideally we would 'fix' a problem with behavioural training, presumably it just isn't always possible and it would be wrong to hold back medication if that's what the dog needs.
As Fundog says, good luck whatever you decide - and it would be good to know how you get on.
As Fundog says, good luck whatever you decide - and it would be good to know how you get on.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Anxiety
It looks like Cricket has issues with change. Then the habits she has gotten into is extending the stress. Are you spending a lot of time with Cricket? Your bond with her may be a key. I would take her out until she pees and give her a treat. Do what you can to make your new home her home. Does she stay in a crate at any time? Some dogs can't stand a crate, for some of them it is a life saver.
Re: Anxiety
This topic has been on my mind a lot recently as it relates to Sky. I have been thinking about whether medication would be warrented in her case as well. I went this route with one of my sons based on the advice of the "professionals" and I was never really happy with it. As soon as he was 18, he removed himself from the medications and as an adult has made comments that really confirm in my mind, that medication wasn't really the right thing to do in his case. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do in other cases.
I think it is really a tough judgment call and even when medications are given, it is kind of a guessing game on the part of the doctors. For Cricket, I think I would first check for an uti, but I find myself wondering if the bathroom peeing is because she feels more safe there. Another thought might be that a previous owner had a dog for whom the bathroom was their potty place. Bathrooms often having a more water repellant flooring surface are popular safe rooms where an "ooops" isn't such a big deal, or where papers or piddle pads are spread out specifically for the intent of the dog being able to use that as their toilet. Would you be able to place piddle pads on the floor in the bathroom? If nothing else, it would make clean up easier and less frustrating, and the bathroom could smell more like a normal bathroom which should also reduce your stress levels at dealing with this.
I think it is really a tough judgment call and even when medications are given, it is kind of a guessing game on the part of the doctors. For Cricket, I think I would first check for an uti, but I find myself wondering if the bathroom peeing is because she feels more safe there. Another thought might be that a previous owner had a dog for whom the bathroom was their potty place. Bathrooms often having a more water repellant flooring surface are popular safe rooms where an "ooops" isn't such a big deal, or where papers or piddle pads are spread out specifically for the intent of the dog being able to use that as their toilet. Would you be able to place piddle pads on the floor in the bathroom? If nothing else, it would make clean up easier and less frustrating, and the bathroom could smell more like a normal bathroom which should also reduce your stress levels at dealing with this.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.
Re: Anxiety
While I'm not a fan of puppy pads, in the short term that might be a really good idea as it would give you a chance to regroup and figure out what's going on with poor Cricket. It would take the pressure off both of you for a bit which can often be a huge help in it's self.MPbandmom wrote:Would you be able to place piddle pads on the floor in the bathroom? If nothing else, it would make clean up easier and less frustrating, and the bathroom could smell more like a normal bathroom which should also reduce your stress levels at dealing with this.
If you think it would help you could do a little write up for us about Cricket, you know the usual stuff - history, routine, diet, excercise, training etc and we might be able to give you some ideas before you go down the medication route. There's also herbal suplements you can try in the mean time which seem to get mixed results but could be worth a shot.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
Re: Anxiety
Whew, I step away for a bit and there's a whole slew of responses!
So I did do a urinalysis and look at her urine under a microscope, and I didn't really find anything too suspicious. Granted, I took it off the floor after she ran off and peed in a corner in my clinic (
), but the strip didn't show any blood, white blood cells, etc that you'd normally find. It didn't smell quite right, so I'm going to bring her back with me this week to grab pee straight out of her bladder.
I did resort to wee pads in the mean time, and instead of peeing on them, she pees near them
.
Let's see, her current workday routine includes:
-7:00am wake up, get myself ready, take the dogs for a 15 minute walk
-8:00am Cricket gets locked in the bathroom. She used to be in a crate and never messed in that, but in my new place I figured I'd leave her in the bathroom for the sake of her hips. I have to keep the counters clear because she can use the bath tub to get onto the counters... She gets a frozen Kong when I leave.
-12-1 ish pm if I'm not doing surgeries or dealing with sick patients, I come home for lunch and take the dogs on a 10-15 minute walk. Sometimes she's peed in the bathroom at this point, sometimes she hasn't. She I leave, she usually gets a jerky treat or something
-7 ish pm I get home, take the dogs on a 30-40 minute walk and feed them. For the rest of the evening, she wrestles with Chance, plays with me, snuggles up with me on the couch, etc. she goes outside once before bed, sometimes taking up to 10-20 minutes to pee.
I sporadically do some obedience training with Cricket, but she's difficult to get to focus. She'll do the whole "routine" of tricks without me telling her to basically thinking she'll get treats that way without listening to what I'm saying. She's really high energy, but I can't run with her like I do with Chance because of her hips. I can't swim her in my lake because there's alligators. There aren't any facilities close by that allow for dogs to swim in pools and the beaches are not dog-friendly.
I feel awful, because all of my anxiety patients I counsel their owners on increasing the amount of exercise and training they do with their dogs to burn mental and physical energy, but I have trouble doing so with my own dog.
For her hips, I do Cosequin DS and fish oil. I also perform acupuncture on her a few nights per week. I haven't had her hips x-rayed yet, but I plan to. I've tried melatonin for anxiety, and have had some variable results. More often than not it just puts her to sleep.
So I did do a urinalysis and look at her urine under a microscope, and I didn't really find anything too suspicious. Granted, I took it off the floor after she ran off and peed in a corner in my clinic (
), but the strip didn't show any blood, white blood cells, etc that you'd normally find. It didn't smell quite right, so I'm going to bring her back with me this week to grab pee straight out of her bladder. I did resort to wee pads in the mean time, and instead of peeing on them, she pees near them
. Let's see, her current workday routine includes:
-7:00am wake up, get myself ready, take the dogs for a 15 minute walk
-8:00am Cricket gets locked in the bathroom. She used to be in a crate and never messed in that, but in my new place I figured I'd leave her in the bathroom for the sake of her hips. I have to keep the counters clear because she can use the bath tub to get onto the counters... She gets a frozen Kong when I leave.
-12-1 ish pm if I'm not doing surgeries or dealing with sick patients, I come home for lunch and take the dogs on a 10-15 minute walk. Sometimes she's peed in the bathroom at this point, sometimes she hasn't. She I leave, she usually gets a jerky treat or something
-7 ish pm I get home, take the dogs on a 30-40 minute walk and feed them. For the rest of the evening, she wrestles with Chance, plays with me, snuggles up with me on the couch, etc. she goes outside once before bed, sometimes taking up to 10-20 minutes to pee.
I sporadically do some obedience training with Cricket, but she's difficult to get to focus. She'll do the whole "routine" of tricks without me telling her to basically thinking she'll get treats that way without listening to what I'm saying. She's really high energy, but I can't run with her like I do with Chance because of her hips. I can't swim her in my lake because there's alligators. There aren't any facilities close by that allow for dogs to swim in pools and the beaches are not dog-friendly.
I feel awful, because all of my anxiety patients I counsel their owners on increasing the amount of exercise and training they do with their dogs to burn mental and physical energy, but I have trouble doing so with my own dog.
For her hips, I do Cosequin DS and fish oil. I also perform acupuncture on her a few nights per week. I haven't had her hips x-rayed yet, but I plan to. I've tried melatonin for anxiety, and have had some variable results. More often than not it just puts her to sleep.
Re: Anxiety
I'm not a fan of medication for medication's sake, but sometimes we have to work backwards e.g. see if behaviour improves for a painkiller and then we know there is pain behind it. In this case, as you have access, why not give her a short course of ABs as if there definitely were a UTI? If her pee smells unusual, then *something* is up with the urinary system (not teaching you to suck eggs but sometimes we are too close to an issue to be as analytical as we would if it were someone else's dog).
Do you take her straight back indoors after she has peed? That tends to make them drag it out more. But I wonder if she has a touch of infection or isn't emptying her bladder fully in one go. Or maybe there is a sphincter incompetence issue, as she is spayed. You have the goods to deal with that, too. Does she leak when lying down elsewhere? It's all detective work.
Do you take her straight back indoors after she has peed? That tends to make them drag it out more. But I wonder if she has a touch of infection or isn't emptying her bladder fully in one go. Or maybe there is a sphincter incompetence issue, as she is spayed. You have the goods to deal with that, too. Does she leak when lying down elsewhere? It's all detective work.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Anxiety
is this the same dog as you asked about "obsessive" behaviors back in Nov 2103? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17773
If so, she really might be a candidate for help via medication to deal with her stress/anxiety/possible obsessive behaviors. If your not sure how to proceed down this path, I know your a vet but even my vet who has been a vet for well over a decade consulted before going down this path with her foster, I can ask my resources if there are any good vets with experience in this area in your area OR if not, who might you contact to consult with over the phone. I know some of the "big" names in this area do that for fellow vets. The community of vets who really know this side of things is actually pretty small so even knowing just one (which my vet does) would very likely lead to some doors opening for you.
I personally don't think we should "jump" to medicating dogs. I know that lots of stress/anxiety/fear issues can be solved with patience, good management, and a good training plan. but sometimes we do need "pharmaceutical" help to create that window in order for the counter conditioning, confidence building etc plans to have an affect on the dog. And it doesn't necessarily need to be "traditional big" pharma, it can be also of what we think of as "natural" options. It just has to be something that actually works. Not to volunteer her or anything...but Nettle can probably help with advice on exploring the "natural" direction if you want.
I know you probably are already doing this, but in your training keep it as light, safe, and rewarding as you can for her. be careful that in your "obedience" training that you don't get "tunnel vision" on the "obedience" part. If she is not feeling good and/or stressed/anxious etc, that will affect her ability to "comply" with your "sit" or "down" etc cues. which can add to the stress you both maybe feeling.
I would mix in things like learning a trick or playing 101 things to do with a box or even some nose work games so that that she is "training" in the sense she is having to learn skills, but because these are not "obedience" skills, we without thinking or trying tend to put less stress/pressure on the dog and our self for the end result. making the experience more fun for both and beneficial for the dog.
You are going to learn sooooo much from Cricket and Cricket is VERY lucky to have you taking care of her. hang in there.
If so, she really might be a candidate for help via medication to deal with her stress/anxiety/possible obsessive behaviors. If your not sure how to proceed down this path, I know your a vet but even my vet who has been a vet for well over a decade consulted before going down this path with her foster, I can ask my resources if there are any good vets with experience in this area in your area OR if not, who might you contact to consult with over the phone. I know some of the "big" names in this area do that for fellow vets. The community of vets who really know this side of things is actually pretty small so even knowing just one (which my vet does) would very likely lead to some doors opening for you.
I personally don't think we should "jump" to medicating dogs. I know that lots of stress/anxiety/fear issues can be solved with patience, good management, and a good training plan. but sometimes we do need "pharmaceutical" help to create that window in order for the counter conditioning, confidence building etc plans to have an affect on the dog. And it doesn't necessarily need to be "traditional big" pharma, it can be also of what we think of as "natural" options. It just has to be something that actually works. Not to volunteer her or anything...but Nettle can probably help with advice on exploring the "natural" direction if you want.
I know you probably are already doing this, but in your training keep it as light, safe, and rewarding as you can for her. be careful that in your "obedience" training that you don't get "tunnel vision" on the "obedience" part. If she is not feeling good and/or stressed/anxious etc, that will affect her ability to "comply" with your "sit" or "down" etc cues. which can add to the stress you both maybe feeling.
I would mix in things like learning a trick or playing 101 things to do with a box or even some nose work games so that that she is "training" in the sense she is having to learn skills, but because these are not "obedience" skills, we without thinking or trying tend to put less stress/pressure on the dog and our self for the end result. making the experience more fun for both and beneficial for the dog.
You are going to learn sooooo much from Cricket and Cricket is VERY lucky to have you taking care of her. hang in there.
Re: Anxiety
Wow, thank you all for responding and giving me opinions.
This morning, she almost started a fight with another dog. Chance had met this dog before and did fine, and since the owner had it on a stupid extending leash, the dog came over. Chance greeted it appropriately, but the dog bared its teeth, so Chance backed off and showed the other dog his butt. Cricket then lunged and growled at the other dog, thus causing the other dog to lunch and bark, and Chance then turned around and growled. Fortunately the other dog got reeled in before anything happened, but still...
Anywho, after I came home on lunch today and she had peed all over my bathroom, I lost my temper. She ran to the porch (where I put her when she's in trouble), while I angrily mopped. I took her back to work with me so I could officially have her looked at by another vet. All the way to the car, I kept calling her a bad stupid dog (I know, bad stupid owner ). As soon as she got to the car, her face looked absolutely panicked - and subsequently my heart broke. Seriously, I almost cried. The entire car ride, she hung her head and wasn't interested in sticking her head out the window. Before Cricket came to me, she had been dumped at the shelter twice. I couldn't help but think, did her last two owners tell her she was a bad stupid dog before they dumped her at the shelter?
I don't know, I always suspected her issues stemmed from her past live(s). I also thought I could overcome them by providing her with a good home, training, and regular exercise. I had a long talk with my coworkers. Basically it came down to this - if she truly needs the medication, it would be wrong to withhold it from her. If a human had a mental illness or anxiety issue and needed medication to have a good quality of life, a doctor would have no problem prescribing it. They told me over and over again, she just seems like a dog that would live much happier without the anxiety-related issues (IE teeth grinding, CONSTANT nose rubbing, urinating, etc).
So tomorrow, she's going to start Prozac. The side effects are fairly mild and it doesn't change dogs' personalities like other behavior modification drugs do. I think if it allows her to have a better quality of life, it would be wrong to deny her.
Yes, this is the same dog!jacksdad wrote:is this the same dog as you asked about "obsessive" behaviors back in Nov 2103? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17773
She was spayed as an adult after her first heat. Spay incontinence is still possible, but I think less likely. I took a good whiff of her pee last night (seriously, on my knees sniffing the ground), and I really couldn't detect the odor I thought I smelled before. When she urinated all over the bathroom today (after being alone for only 3 hours), there was no blood or odor.Nettle wrote:Or maybe there is a sphincter incompetence issue, as she is spayed.
This morning, she almost started a fight with another dog. Chance had met this dog before and did fine, and since the owner had it on a stupid extending leash, the dog came over. Chance greeted it appropriately, but the dog bared its teeth, so Chance backed off and showed the other dog his butt. Cricket then lunged and growled at the other dog, thus causing the other dog to lunch and bark, and Chance then turned around and growled. Fortunately the other dog got reeled in before anything happened, but still...
Anywho, after I came home on lunch today and she had peed all over my bathroom, I lost my temper. She ran to the porch (where I put her when she's in trouble), while I angrily mopped. I took her back to work with me so I could officially have her looked at by another vet. All the way to the car, I kept calling her a bad stupid dog (I know, bad stupid owner
). As soon as she got to the car, her face looked absolutely panicked - and subsequently my heart broke. Seriously, I almost cried. The entire car ride, she hung her head and wasn't interested in sticking her head out the window. Before Cricket came to me, she had been dumped at the shelter twice. I couldn't help but think, did her last two owners tell her she was a bad stupid dog before they dumped her at the shelter? I don't know, I always suspected her issues stemmed from her past live(s). I also thought I could overcome them by providing her with a good home, training, and regular exercise. I had a long talk with my coworkers. Basically it came down to this - if she truly needs the medication, it would be wrong to withhold it from her. If a human had a mental illness or anxiety issue and needed medication to have a good quality of life, a doctor would have no problem prescribing it. They told me over and over again, she just seems like a dog that would live much happier without the anxiety-related issues (IE teeth grinding, CONSTANT nose rubbing, urinating, etc).
So tomorrow, she's going to start Prozac. The side effects are fairly mild and it doesn't change dogs' personalities like other behavior modification drugs do. I think if it allows her to have a better quality of life, it would be wrong to deny her.
Re: Anxiety
You ARE doing this. You have NOT failed. putting her on meds is NOT a sign of failure.rnor1120 wrote:I always suspected her issues stemmed from her past live(s). I also thought I could overcome them by providing her with a good home, training, and regular exercise.
Let me introduce your to Trill.
here is where she and my vet started. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1uFzu ... R3-JduhDsw
here is Trill right after Xmas 2013 http://www.mypersonalvet.com/index.php/trill
Trill is on medication. she progressed a fair amount without it, but still ended up needing the help as progress stalled and started to go backwards. My vet has had support from a vet behaviorist as well as a very experienced positive trainer who used to do lots of fear based case work. so going down the medication path was not done lightly or casually.
I absolutely do not believe all problems are or should be solved by a "pill", but sometimes it is the right choice and the right thing for the dog. I agree with rnor1120, if the dog truly needs the help, it is wrong to withhold the medication.
For me the key was your concern over possible obsessive behaviors and based on what you shared it didn't sound like even in the house Cricket could relax (teeth grinding). This is NOT a reflection on your at all, Crickets past might just be too hard to overcome without medical help. It happens. As much as we would like it to be, sometimes all the love in the world just isn't enough by it's self.
For those who are not quite familiar with giving dogs Prozac or other medication to assist with behavior modification, it's not a replacement for counter conditioning, and all the other things you do to help a fearful dog. once the medication kicks in, those things HAVE to still happen. they have to, or there is no point and you might as well euthanize the dog so it won't suffer any more.
Hang in there, thing will get better. Cricket is lucky to have you, and in no time at all I know you will feel lucky to have been or to be (depending on if you turn into a foster "failure" or not and become her permanent home) a part of Cricket's life.
Last edited by jacksdad on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Anxiety
For those still interested, I did end up starting Cricket on Prozac. She hasn't peed at all in the house. She still grinds her teeth, but I think it's getting a little better. She's still rubbing her nose, but I'm not expecting any miracles this early into treatment.
Re: Anxiety
Fingers crossed this helps her.
I had a stressed-out cat once (her sister kept duffing her up) who ended up on diazepam. It took a while to get the dosage right - at first she turned into a fat blob who barely moved at all, but once we got the dose right she was just like a 'normal' cat again
I had a stressed-out cat once (her sister kept duffing her up) who ended up on diazepam. It took a while to get the dosage right - at first she turned into a fat blob who barely moved at all, but once we got the dose right she was just like a 'normal' cat again
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Anxiety
Ugh, spoke too soon. She weed in the bathroom again, but at least she peed on a pee-pad? I'll take that as a win. Either way, I still think she's starting to improve.
Re: Anxiety
absolutely interested and thanks for posting an update.rnor1120 wrote:For those still interested...
your the vet, but you are very close to this case so don't take this wrong.... don't loose sight that it can take a few weeks for the meds to kick in and be adjusted to the right level.
For what it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing, hang in there things will get better.
