To neuter and when to neuter..

[gwd]

The owner of the black russian terrier - who at only 5 and a half months is already ginormous - is worrying about his adolescence. Their vet generally recommends waiting before neutering but both owner & vet are concerned he will be too big for her too handle if he decided to be a horrible teenager so they are also considering having him done early.

It's easy for us to say - wait - it will pass - but if you have a big, powerful dog - and don't have access to quiet nature parks at 5am like ArisDad, and may not be able to physically restrain the dog if he got into trouble - then I don't think we should totally overlook that.

I'd be even more hesitant to neuter a brt at a young age. I'd be wanting to make sure he was fully mature and growth plates closed before disrupting nature. Don't forget that brt's can be prone to acl rupture

http://www.blackrussianterrierethicalbr ... ation.html

With large breed dogs, osteosarcoma is also always a concern.

Idisclaimer, 'm going to be a bit judgmental here, but why in gawds name would someone select a breed that they potentially can't control? If you don't have the physical ability, select a different breed! Trust me, I know they can be powerful......... remember, I have shown Irish wolfhounds and leonburgers! I girl friend of mine is 5 foot nuthin, and I've seen her break up a spat between two Leo's........... heck, I'd rather see her use a halti or (against forum policy) even a prong collar rather than do an early neuter. That's how strongly I feel about it.

[Nettle]

Certainly use the halti for the time being if it works for you, but with the aim of doing away with it at some stage in the future when you feel confident enough.

And while I do so appreciate that people and dogs can pop up from 'nowhere', do work on fine-tuning your own observation and pro-active manoevres. It can seem sometimes that you never get anywhere without a diversion, but it does work. It's defensive dog-walking, like defensive driving. We all have to do it and it becomes second nature in time.

[Sanna]

None taken gwd I can only speak for myself: I prefer big dogs and I've had big dogs in the past (granted they were both female, and very mellow). I am in fairly good shape with no physical issues. I was fully prepared for the extra work and training a larger breed requires. Well I thought I was, I certainly wasn't quite prepared for Precious
But there are certain things that I suppose with a small dog just isn't that big a deal to a lot of people (unlikely to pull you over, knock you down, only jumps up to knee height, can be picked up if needed etc)- what I mean is to me the bigger and stronger the dog the more good manners are a necessity really and therefore must be trained for even harder.

When it comes to being in control of my dog that is something I have to teach and train for, not a question of neutering; BUT when it is suggested by professionals (bearing in mind I am just a pet owner- not a dog trainer, breeder, vet, behaviour expert etc) that neutering would help my dog with reactivity/ throwing his weigh around/ frustration/ being picked on (which in turn leads to me not being in control of him, but the main priority is obviously wanting to help my dog in any way I can), then from the average dog owners perspective you would not just dismiss that because these folks are supposed to know better than you.. does that make sense?

I am so glad I did question it though, did some research before I got him, and can get answers from more experienced people such as yourself. Looks like Precious's balls will live to see another day (or year)

Nettle I love that analogy and yes I definitely don't want to rely on the halti forever, but it' is helpful for now.

[Suzette]

When it comes to being in control of my dog that is something I have to teach and train for, not a question of neutering; BUT when it is suggested by professionals (bearing in mind I am just a pet owner- not a dog trainer, breeder, vet, behaviour expert etc) that neutering would help my dog with reactivity/ throwing his weigh around/ frustration/ being picked on (which in turn leads to me not being in control of him, but the main priority is obviously wanting to help my dog in any way I can), then from the average dog owners perspective you would not just dismiss that because these folks are supposed to know better than you.. does that make sense?

Total sense! This is why so many dogs are altered too early - we are taught from a young age to blindly trust professionals and rarely question them.

I am so glad I did question it though, did some research before I got him, and can get answers from more experienced people such as yourself. Looks like Precious's balls will live to see another day (or year)

Yep, your dog was one of the lucky ones because something inside of you did question the advice you were given to neuter early. And now that you acted on those questions, came here and educated yourself, and ultimately decided it was in yours and your dogs best interest to hold off a bit, you and your dog will benefit in numerous ways! Good for you and good for Precious!! (Who by the way is a gorgeous dog!!)

[gwd]

Certainly use the halti for the time being if it works for you, but with the aim of doing away with it at some stage in the future when you feel confident enough.

And while I do so appreciate that people and dogs can pop up from 'nowhere', do work on fine-tuning your own observation and pro-active manoevres. It can seem sometimes that you never get anywhere without a diversion, but it does work. It's defensive dog-walking, like defensive driving. We all have to do it and it becomes second nature in time.

Exactly, when I was typing I wasn't suggesting using either of the other types of collars as a way of life, only as a temporary safety net if someone was uncomfortable with their abilities to restrain a dog. Of course I feel that training, and as you said, heightened awareness is the key.

In my case, the only time I've felt I needed 'help' was on the late night walks and bunnies exploding under my boys nose is a real possibility. In my case, I use the bungee extension as my safety net because it takes the pop out of the end-o-the leash hit. Other dogs just are not an issue as they're not exactly ninja's and I always can see or hear them coming. In those cases, you can be pro-active.

I just hate hearing that a vet is suggesting neutering a brt as a form of control ......that really bothers me.

[jacksdad]

BUT when it is suggested by professionals (bearing in mind I am just a pet owner- not a dog trainer, breeder, vet, behaviour expert etc) that neutering would help my dog with reactivity/ throwing his weigh around/ frustration/ being picked on (which in turn leads to me not being in control of him, but the main priority is obviously wanting to help my dog in any way I can), then from the average dog owners perspective you would not just dismiss that because these folks are supposed to know better than you.. does that make sense?

This in my opinion illustrates the difference between "just" a trainer and someone who trains but also truly dives into behavior. I am learning "behavior work" isn't just about how to change something a dog is doing, but understanding what is natural (but maybe unwanted) verse unnatural indicating medical or some other "defect" etc. and if possible why a dog is doing what it is doing so you actually target the cause, not just the symptom with your solution.

One of the things that scares me about someone recommending neutering to resolve "reactivity" is reactivity is such a broad and imprecise word to describe a whole range of behaviors. One of which is fear. you neuter a fearful dog, you are only going to make them MORE fearful. heck neutering a currently non fearful dog risks at the least some short term fearful behavior up to and including what people think of as "reactive". seeing this in a recently neutered boxer I am working with.

at the point in am at in my learning, I am of the opinion that neutering to change natural (but possibly unwanted) behavior is a highly risky course of action, and doing so before a training/behavioral adjustment course of action has been proven to truly not be affective (which means checking on owner compliance and ensuring proper support for implementing the training) raises some ethical questions. is it right to recommend a medical solution (particularly surgery) for a non medical problem? We think of it as routine and safe surgery, but anytime you are "put under", even if it is a small risk, there is risk of death. why risk death (and it does happen) over a problem that can be addressed by a training/management/education based solution.

spay and neuter has it's place, but it should not be viewed as a cure all.

[bendog]

I just hate hearing that a vet is suggesting neutering a brt as a form of control ......that really bothers me.

Yes, I know, and thinking about it, I think what WufWuf said is exactly right. I walk a LOT of adolescent dogs. Many neutered early, some still entire. The ones that I have known before & after neutering haven't calmed down any at all and are still a nightmare to control! In constrast the 9 month old Beagle, whilst still a pup, is much more mature in his dog interactions in some ways than the early neuters. I was more thinking about if OTHER dogs react negatively to the dog being entire, and the BRT decides to have a go back - that would be a major problem. Not suggesting it would make the BRT any easier to manage, just perhaps less likely to be drawn into a scrap.

Having said that - Ben was entire for almost 5 years and I only once had a situation where another dog took exception to him because he was an entire male, and that was well past puppyhood and when he was about 4 years old. This dog apparently hated all "males" (not sure whether she meant entire males only or males in general) and totally surprised us on the field in pitch darkness which is party what set off Bens reactivity. But he is small & shy and so not the type of boy to go throwing his weight around.

[Sanna]

So I have another question for you guys, I'm revisiting this topic as P will be 2 next month (OMG time flies!) and we've started talking about the whole neutering thing again- what do you know about the male contraceptive implant (Suprerolin?) and what are your thoughts?

I'm wondering if it's worth trying before making the final decision, if it will give us an accurate idea of the potential effects of neutering?

I haven't looked into it much yet, not even sure if it's available from our vets but is it worth researching and considering you think? Or is it naive to think I can 'test-drive' a neutered P before making a decision?

I would love to hear the pros and cons if any of you guys know a bit about it, or just thoughts on it in general?

[JudyN]

I suppose the first question to ask yourself is why you want to neuter him. Is it to get a change in behaviour, or is it so you don't have to worry about him ambushing (or being ambushed by ) and in-season b!tch and getting her in the family way?

My vet told me that in his experience, chemical castration can affect behaviour differently to surgical castration, so it may not give an accurate picture.

[Ari_RR]

For what it's worth...

Ari will be 4 (tomorrow .. Time sure flies ), and intact.
Short and long term pros and cons health-wise - I haven't found anything convincing that neutering has positive benefits/risks ratio. Our vet is not convinced either.

Unwanted puppies - there are practically no free roaming intact females around here where we live, so this is not a concern.

Ari's own personality - while totally submissive to most confident females, he can be a bit of a bully and a thug towards males, but I attribute this to wrong socialization in his early days (dog parks in particular). But mostly he is disinterested in other dogs. Even the ones he loves and always wants to visit during our walks in the neighborhood - 5 min into the visit, and he gets either overwhelmed by their energy and playfulness, or bored, and wants to move on.

Which leaves the subject of off-leash time.... Which I know many are big fans of. I am too, but Ari is rarely off leash. Only when there are only known dogs around. I think that, being a bit of a bully at heart notwithstanding, he gets along well with confident males, who are not afraid/defensive/aggressive to him. But - in mostly neutered world, I can't really expect an unknown neutered dog to be confident towards an intact one, who, on top of being intact, weights 107 lbs and can have a bit of an attitude himself.

Add to that a rather unreliable recall outdoors, and this all translates into restrictions for the boy. We don't go to the beach, for example, where many different dogs play in the water and their humans socialize and admire their creatures, take pictures, etc... It's a pity, we would have enjoyed that.

When we walk or jog on the trails in the nature parks - Ari is usually on his 50 ft leash. He is totally fine with it, by the way... Trotting along the trail, stopping to sniff things, exploring bushes - that's his favorite activity anyway. If we don't meet anyone at all during such hikes - he is just as happy. But we live in urban area, nature parks are rarely empty, so 50 ft leash is usually on.

All in all - the restrictions we have to impose on ourselves are not horrendous. In my mind - don't justify getting him neutered, surgically or chemically.

[Nettle]

My vet told me that in his experience, chemical castration can affect behaviour differently to surgical castration, so it may not give an accurate picture.

My vet says this too.

[rnor1120]

For what it's worth - personality wise, neutering really doesn't change the dog's personality. Every dog I've ever neutered has been pretty much the same before and after. I had Chance as an entire male for several months before I was able to neuter him, and really nothing changed. Well, alright so he mayyyyybe got a little easier to train, but I also can't prove that it wasn't about the timing of our training either... He was still aggressive to other dogs, still a mush around me, still leery of strange people.

That being said (and this is my own personal experience), I still find that intact males are far more boisterous than neutered ones. I think a lot depends though, on the type of people who choose to keep their dogs intact in my region (and I highly emphasize "in my region").

I was always taught that neutering doesn't solve any behavioral problems, only appropriate training will. It may help reduce male-on-male aggression, but that's not definitive.

[Sanna]

I suppose the first question to ask yourself is why you want to neuter him. Is it to get a change in behaviour, or is it so you don't have to worry about him ambushing (or being ambushed by ) and in-season b!tch and getting her in the family way?

My vet told me that in his experience, chemical castration can affect behaviour differently to surgical castration, so it may not give an accurate picture.

That makes sense ^^

There are two reasons why we are considering it (not necessarily right now tho), the main one being 'birth control'- not an issue at the moment as we live in an area where most dogs are 'done' and it is highly unlikely that he will escape or come across an escapee in season - but we have decided to move to Norway at some point and over there most dogs are left entire (both male and female- they only spay/ neuter if necessary for health reasons). So the risk of ambushing will be significantly higher, especially as we'd be in a rural area where roaming dogs are not uncommon..
Whilst I'd obviously do everything possible to keep P contained the fact of the matter is that it's not at all unlikely that a love sick female would seek him out My first dog was actually the result of the mum somehow getting out, finding a male a couple of blocks away and mating through a chain link fence

So I'm also wondering if the implant would be a better option for preventing accidental puppies (not sure if it would curb interest in females in heat, I'm assuming it would only render his sperm useless?) without the need for surgery and the risk of how it could backfire permanently..

The other possible reason is male-male aggression. With more maturity, management and some training P is now generally fine (full on, excitable and a little rude maybe, but friendly) with neutered males and respectful of females, but he is increasingly intolerant of entire males
And being in Norway this summer he was even more reactive, which I partly put down to everything being new and a bit stressful but I think also had a lot to do with other entire males everywhere because he seemed to be fine with any females we met there.
I'm very torn on this one tho. The more I learn the more it seems it might make it better, but it might also make it worse so it just seems very risky and I'm trying to find out if there are other options.

[Sanna]

For what it's worth...

Ari will be 4 (tomorrow .. Time sure flies ), and intact.

Happy birthday Ari you gorgeous boy

Which leaves the subject of off-leash time.... Which I know many are big fans of. I am too, but Ari is rarely off leash. Only when there are only known dogs around. I think that, being a bit of a bully at heart notwithstanding, he gets along well with confident males, who are not afraid/defensive/aggressive to him. But - in mostly neutered world, I can't really expect an unknown neutered dog to be confident towards an intact one, who, on top of being intact, weights 107 lbs and can have a bit of an attitude himself.

Add to that a rather unreliable recall outdoors, and this all translates into restrictions for the boy. We don't go to the beach, for example, where many different dogs play in the water and their humans socialize and admire their creatures, take pictures, etc... It's a pity, we would have enjoyed that.

When we walk or jog on the trails in the nature parks - Ari is usually on his 50 ft leash. He is totally fine with it, by the way... Trotting along the trail, stopping to sniff things, exploring bushes - that's his favorite activity anyway. If we don't meet anyone at all during such hikes - he is just as happy. But we live in urban area, nature parks are rarely empty, so 50 ft leash is usually on.

All in all - the restrictions we have to impose on ourselves are not horrendous. In my mind - don't justify getting him neutered, surgically or chemically.

Ari sounds similar to my P in many ways; apart from P is super interested in other dogs (oh how I'd love for him to be disinterested ) and the problem is more challenging intact males than bullying neutered ones.

I manage him very much in the same way you do, and it really doesn't bother me. Yes it'd be lovely to be able to take him everywhere and let him off leash etc etc but even if I was completely confident in him around other dogs he is still a big baffoon, his recall is not good enough and tho he is friendly he certainly can't be trusted not to bounce on people or knock children over.. So it's just the responsible thing to do, both for my dog and others.
I've always got him trailing a long line as a safety net, we walk in quiet areas and on the rare occasions he does get to run freely with other dogs it's only with dogs we know and in a safe area. Not a problem. I certainly wouldn't get him neutered just to be able to let him off leash What would be lovely tho, would be if other people maybe imposed a restriction or two on their dogs as well..

[Nettle]

Good thinking.

Neutered male dogs can still mate and tie, so neutering will not prevent the risks associated with the mating procedure, though it will of course prevent puppies. However, though the unwanted mating is something that seems to go off without a hitch on street corners, there is very real danger especially to the male. I have known a lot of male dogs badly injured, and one killed, during inadequately supervised matings.

What I am saying is that you will still need to Fort Knox your yard, maybe with a fence within a fence (I have this) to allow for people who can't shut gates and dogs that can jump or dig. However IF there are free-roaming male dogs, I doubt any b itch is going to make a great effort to seek out a confined one, even one as handsome as P!

RE: neutering to avoid male posturing and maybe aggression - it's my experience that most male dogs and quite a few females will pick on a neutered male. While male-meets-male still has to be controlled (just as we control all our dogs' meetings with other dogs) well-adjusted males will usually just huff and puff, maybe scent-mark, and move on. If entire males are used to other entire males, they don't see each other as a novelty. The key word is USUALLY I find far more skirmishes between early-neutered males (technically still adolescents in attitude) than full males. P would not be an early-neuter as you have let him grow up - kudos to you - however you can't stick 'em back on once they are cut off. I'd wait and see.