Border Collie pup

[Jayne&Jack]

Hi everyone,

My fiance and I recently got a Border Collie puppy named Jack. He was approximately 3 1/2 months old when we got him from a farm in Wales. We saw and played with the litter and both parents. We had a long drive home with Jack (2 hours) after this we noticed his back left leg was moving in a strange way- he seemed to be twisting his foot. We called the farm immediately and informed the lady who agreed to have Jack back should the vet find a problem. Jack went the vet 3 days later for vaccinations and we talked to her about his hip- she said he seemed fine and that it was too soon to check for hip dysplasia. We have since noticed this problem reoccurring twice since we've had him both times after playing fetch in the park. Jack has no other problems with jumping, getting up after lying down, going up and down stairs etc. When his hip seems to do this Jack has no reaction and carries on as normal, even running (the turn in his leg is less noticeable while running). Could it be over-exertion or maybe something to do with him being very active then only walking straight after?

Jack goes for an hours off lead walk everyday which includes a game of fetch at the end. Is this too much for a puppy? He is booked in the vets for neutering on Tuesday and we will be asking for advice while he is there, but, I thought I'd see if anybody could help ease our minds on here before hand.

Many Thanks.

[Fundog]

Yes, an hour of running off-lead, followed by a game of fetch is too much for a puppy his age. He should only be getting about 30 minutes, and at short intervals-- so three ten minute runs per day.

The rest of the time, set up some brain games and puzzles for him to do, which will also serve to expend a surprising amount of energy. Besides learning new tricks through clicker training, you can make some homemade puzzles for him, using his meals. Some examples:

Muffin tin:

Using an old muffin tin, put a food bit into each cup. Cover with a tennis ball or other toy that will fit. Pup has to move the balls to get to the tidbit.

Rooting Box:

Fill a cardboard box with scrap paper (often packages come with brown paper wrapping your parcel inside the box), such as old newspaper or paper grocery sacks, etc. Disperse some food bits amongst the paper. Puppy has to root through the paper to find his goodies, often having a grand time over-turning the box and shredding the paper to do so. Yes, you will have to pick up afterward, but that's okay, isn't it? And yes, you absolutely must supervise puppy. Some dogs eat paper and cardboard, some don't.

You can also play the "rooting game" with layers of old towels or blankets. Tuck a food bit between each layer, with at least 3 or 4 layers. Puppy will paw, did, and physically move the blankets to get to the food. This is a surprising amount of work-- especially for a little puppy!

"Find it!" You will have to teach puppy how to play this game in stages. It will take a few days to master it.
Step 1: If puppy has not yet mastered a "stay," have someone hold him steady while you hide the treat or toy while he watches. Then release him, and tell him to "find it." Help him, if he seems confused.

Step 2: Have puppy wait out of sight while you hide the toy or treat. Then release puppy, tell him to "find it," and again help him if he doesn't know how to start. It is much like helping a one year old at an Easter Egg Hunt. You pretty much find the eggs, and the toddler picks it up and puts it in the basket.

Step 3: Have puppy wait out of sight. This is the mastery step. You hide the object, send him to "find it," and just watch him work. Again, this last step could take some time. Some pups are better at this game than others. (Hunting breeds will master this game within an hour!)

These ideas will get you started. Be sure to use your imagination, too. Remember you've got a herding breed, so not too far down the road he is going to want some breed-related "work" to do, if you aren't having him herd livestock for you. Agility, flyball, frisbee, are sports border collies seem to be especially suited for, and a lot of collies are content to "herd" their toys! A game related to that activity would be to teach them to pick up their toys and put them all in a box. You can do that with clicker training and free-shaping.

[Jayne&Jack]

Thanks for the reply. After posting I did some research and realised we've been exercising poor Jack far too much.We have started clicker training Jack but those games sound great and we'll definitely be trying them! I tidy up after him all day so picking up the paper is no big deal

I am still slightly concerned it is always the same leg and the first time it occurred he hadn't had any exercise- but he had been cooped up in a car for a while with one stop.

Thanks again

[Sabrina]

Hi! Since you haven't had your pup neutered yet, I'd recommend doing some research before you decide on going through with it. There is lots of evidence that neutering before maturity can negatively affect behavior and health:
Thread on this forum - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13916
"Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete: One Veterinarian’s Opinion": http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf

Before I started researching, I thought that spay/neuter was what all responsible owners did for non-breeding dogs/puppies. Since I've started researching, I've come across a mountain of reasons to wait at least until the dog is physically/mentally mature.

I know this wasn't your original question, but as there are significant orthopedic concerns with early spay/neuter I wanted to pass along some resources.

[Edit: I did not mean to imply that there aren't always risks/benefits to analyze and weigh - completely the opposite! In striving for brevity I didn't mean to oversimplify.]

Oh yeah, and everyone here loves puppy pics if you have any to share!

[Jayne&Jack]

Thanks for the info, we'll have a read through. We have an intact 18 year old Yorkshire Terrier who recently had a ruptured hormone fed tumor due to not being neutered. He has since had to be chemically castrated to help shrink the tumor. I suppose there's pros and cons for both. I may have a talk with our vet regarding Jacks age before we go through with having him neutered and see what her advice is also

Jack is a cute puppy and very photogenic... But I'm bias

[JudyN]

In the opinion of many here, he is far too young to be neutered. At the very minimum he should not be neutered until he is fully developed physically, and to neuter before his joints have closed up can lead to joint problems in the future. Ideally, he should be mentally fully developed too - the testosterone that he hasn't even started to produce yet will help him develop the confidence he needs to avoid fear aggression at a later stage.

There's lots of conflicting advice on the internet, but I think you would be wise to delay neutering until you've had a chance to make up your own mind, and maybe had his joints fully assessed.

It might be wise to try to stop him running up and downstairs (use stairgates, and carry him if you can, or at least encourage him to go slowly), and doing too many leaps on and off the furniture - I did this for my long-limbed dog but can't remember how long I was advised to keep it up for

Blast, Sabrina's beaten me to it again

[Jayne&Jack]

He does run like a maniac up and down the stairs however, he is quite a big puppy and I think I'd be the one with joint pain if I carried him up and down every-time We do try and restrict the amount of time he has free access to the stairs, keeping him off the couch would be hardest We can give it a try though especially if it will help his leg. He's been home from the park a few hours now and he's back to his old self. I just hope it's nothing serious.

[Erica]

Without seeing what's happening it's impossible to be sure, but I would suggest checking out a couple videos of dogs with a luxating patella, or floating kneecap, and see if it matches your dog. Here is one, here's another that looks more like what you're describing, and here is a website with a good overview of what a floating kneecap means and how to manage it. Again, I'm just throwing the idea out there because the random nature of it seems to match, though the action is different than what is "normal" for luxating patella - I think most dogs do the three-legged thing seen in the first video. Obviously your vet would have to be the one to say "yep, that's what it is" or "nope, that's not it." It's not a common problem for large dogs, but it's not unheard of.

Our Marble has luxating patellas. When hers pop out she freezes with the affected knee in the air and refuses to move until it resolves itself or someone puts it right again by gently pushing the upper part of her leg backwards, which gently stretches it out, until it pops back in. I wouldn't advise anyone to try this unless they ask their vet first!

[Jayne&Jack]

Thanks for those videos Erica. Jack's problem is similar to the second video like you thought. Jack's isn't as pronounced though and he has no trouble bearing weight on it whatsoever, it also subsides after an hour of being home. I'm going to ask the vet about floating kneecap though because it's the most similar thing I've seen.

Thanks a lot

[mum24dog]

Hi! Since you haven't had your pup neutered yet, I'd recommend doing some research before you decide on going through with it. There is lots of evidence that neutering before maturity can negatively affect behavior and health:
Thread on this forum - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13916
"Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete: One Veterinarian’s Opinion": http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf

Before I started researching, I thought that spay/neuter was what all responsible owners did for non-breeding dogs/puppies. Since I've started researching, I've come across a mountain of reasons to wait at least until the dog is physically/mentally mature.

I know this wasn't your original question, but as there are significant orthopedic concerns with early spay/neuter I wanted to pass along some resources.

Oh yeah, and everyone here loves puppy pics if you have any to share!

If you want a more balanced assessment of the available research and pointers of how to judge the validity of what passes for information try here -

http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/sh ... L-PRACTICE

I'm not aware of any compelling research results in the last 4 years that add much to the overall picture.

Note that the Chris Zink link you post is headed "One Veterinarian's Opinion".

Beware of exaggeration whichever side of the fence you fall. And beware of selection bias where you only give weight to the "evidence" that supports your own pov. And even if claims can be substantiated keep a sense of proportion between the pros and cons of whatever course of action you are considering.

[JudyN]

Beware of exaggeration whichever side of the fence you fall. And beware of selection bias where you only give weight to the "evidence" that supports your own pov. And even if claims can be substantiated keep a sense of proportion between the pros and cons of whatever course of action you are considering.

Wise words for so much of what we read - thanks for that, mum24dog

By far the largest, best designed studies in dogs and cats involved following over 1800 dogs and 1600 cats after neutering (either before or after 5.5 months of age) for an average of 4-4.5 years, but as long as 11 years in some cases.

It's a shame that the studies didn't compare pre-maturity and post-maturity neutering, as many on this forum would regard anything up to 18 months (and over in some breeds) as still being too early. There may be important differences between neutering at 6 months and at 18 months which these studies wouldn't have captured.

[Nettle]

Laura Sanborn studies are also worth reading, as some of the most modern.

[mum24dog]

Laura Sanborn studies are also worth reading, as some of the most modern.

But not unbiased. I prefer objective summaries.

[Nettle]

Laura Sanborn studies are also worth reading, as some of the most modern.

But not unbiased. I prefer objective summaries.

Where do you find bias? These are proper peer-reviewed scientific studies. They also challenge previous studies which turned out to be unscientific, such as those with no proper controls.

Can you link to unbiased modern studies you mention? I always like to find more information especially up-to-date research.

[mum24dog]

Laura Sanborn studies are also worth reading, as some of the most modern.

But not unbiased. I prefer objective summaries.

Where do you find bias? These are proper peer-reviewed scientific studies. They also challenge previous studies which turned out to be unscientific, such as those with no proper controls.

Can you link to unbiased modern studies you mention? I always like to find more information especially up-to-date research.

Not unbiased in that she has been politically active against neutering legislation. Chicken and egg? Did her review come before or after her activism?

I am not talking about unbiased studies but reviews of studies that have been carried out. The best research in the world can be misrepresented whether intentionally or because of sloppy analysis.

Here is a prime example -

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf (quoted above I think) and

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Do ... tal%20.pdf

Not particularly recent but often cited and a warning about taking what others say at face value. I'm afraid it has tainted for me anything that Chris Zink may say which is a shame because sometimes she may be right.

When reading a systematic review or meta analysis I prefer no hint of the reviewer's personal opinion to show through which is as it should be if it is done in a professional manner.