Raw or Not!

[LeeMedic]

We started our Golden Retrievers on Raw. I prepare ground up chicken/beef, with heart/liver ect. I then add raw minced vegetables/fruits. We mix with with 50% dry Orijen dog food. She feels the dogs could get salmonella poisoning.


Our dogs appear to be doing great on the diet. We took our dogs in to the vet for routine shots, and she jumped on us for feeding our dogs uncooked meats.

From what I have read, I still believe we are doing the right thing, but now my vet has us feeling guilty.

What to do . . .?

[Fundog]

Look for a holistic vet who supports raw feeding, or just don't bring it up, and refuse to discuss it with the vet. A lot of raw feeders end up doing the latter, since a holistic raw supporting vet is hard to find in many regions.

[Suzette]

Yes, many of us have had to deal with vets who don't understand the benefits of raw feeding. Just educate yourself and do what YOU think is best for your dog. Vets are wonderful for the medical stuff, but very few seem educated on nutrition, believe it or not. So, find a new vet if it is too much of an issue, otherwise just agree to disagree on this issue with your vet if you like them in every other respect. But in the meantime, two things. First, we have a great thread on raw feeding here on the forum. Here is the link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5321

And second, I would not mix raw and kibble. They digest at different rates, and really the raw diet is so good for them, why mix in commercial dog food at all? It sort of negates a lot of the health benefits of feeding raw.

Best of luck with your vet and good for you for asking questions and giving your dog the benefits of a raw diet!!

[Nettle]

There has just been a big recall of a certain well-known brand of dried dog food because salmonella was found in it. Dried food has all the potential risks of any other food.

We prepare raw meat for ourselves (unless veggie or vegan) every day and don't stress out about salmonella and the like. if we are feeding human grade meat and prepare it with the normal care we prepare our own food, and clear up the normal way we already do, we are highly unikely to encounter trouble. If we have a person in the household whose health is vulnerable, we simply take extra care.

For balance, I feed mine a lot of wild meat as well as butcher's meat, have been doing so for over 30 years and have yet to kill any of us. My vet feeds raw too.

Everything we do carries a risk - up to us to assess those risks and act accordingly. Scaremongering is not what it is about so good for you that you are doing more research.

[mum24dog]

We prepare raw meat for ourselves (unless veggie or vegan) every day and don't stress out about salmonella and the like. if we are feeding human grade meat and prepare it with the normal care we prepare our own food, and clear up the normal way we already do, we are highly unikely to encounter trouble.

I don't follow the logic of this. The OP is asking about feeding raw meat to her dogs; you are talking about the preparation of raw meat that will presumably be cooked before consumption by humans and yes, I do observe basic hygiene rules to avoid salmonella, listeria etc contamination.

The question is whether raw meat that may be infected with salmonella is a potentially serious issue when fed to dogs in that state. Experience of what dogs get into when we aren't looking would suggest not.

But there is always the issue of parasites and I wouldn't feed raw pork to my dogs.

The jury is of course out on whether feeding raw is worth the bother in terms of health benefits and it takes effort and research to get the balance right. A poorly balanced raw diet can do harm just as an inadequate dry diet can. The fashion for raw feeding unfortunately leads too many people to misunderstand and get it wrong. I can see why some vets might be wary of seeming to approve raw feeding although their apparent reasons may sometimes be off the mark.

I do agree with Suzette that most vets are not well versed in nutrition but they do see the effects when it is done wrong.

[Nettle]

Explaining my logic

We prepare the food. Unless we are in a protective suit, we come into contact with the raw meat: it is in our shopping bags, our refrigerators, our hands, on our worktops and chopping boards, on our knives, and the residue is washed up however we do (we don't all have dishwashers). All this time it is raw.

So if it was seething with vile bacteria just about to multiply crazily and see us off, we would probably find out long before it cooked.

But instead of cooking it, we give some to the dog raw. I pick it up in my hand and give it to the dog. I wash my hands. The dog lives. So do I (so far).

Ergo human grade meat stored and prepared with due care is highly (!) unlikely to make our dogs any more ill than kibble.

I of course take greater risks by using wild meat straight from the field, butchered in the field and subject to no hygiene checks at all. Nobody has died yet in this very small survey of irresponsible feeding.

I too minimise parasite risks by freezing meat for a month before feeding.

[JudyN]

I can understand your concerns. I also think there's a lot more misinformation out there than actual, science-backed information, so it can be very confusing. What seems relevant for me:

- Wolves, foxes, etc. eat raw, often far less fresh than we feed our dogs, so must have evolved to deal with a multitude of bacteria. Dogs' digestive systems are pretty much the same as wolves'.
- In the past, hygiene levels were much lower than today, and even if humans cooked meat, you can bet a lot didn't wash their hands after preparing it. Come to think of it, some humans still eat raw, in the form of steak tartare - so it can't be that risky.
- On the various dog-related forums I visit, I have seen loads of people who have fed raw for several years, some with multiple dogs, and they are almost all delighted with the results. There have been a handful of people who felt it wasn't right for their dog, for whatever reason, but this is the case with any dog food. If the risk was high, I would have come across a lot more cases of sick raw-fed dogs.
- I have seen the benefits in my own dog - decent poos, the end of killer farts, and a softer coat in his case.

Salmonella is found in both raw-fed and commercial-fed dogs. I don't think I've seen any conclusive studies that demonstrate that the incidence is higher in one than the other which at least suggests that any difference isn't large. (A decent test would also have to take into account whether basic hygiene had been followed in each case - feeding raw food that has been left in a warm place for a week is obviously more risky than doing the same with kibble.)

As I understand it, there is a risk if combining raw and kibble. One reason dogs can eat raw meat safely is that the food passes through their gut much faster, thereby giving the bugs less time to multiply. The kibble can slow down the transit, giving the bacteria in the raw more time to multiply. If this theory is correct, combining the two gives you the worst of both worlds.

[Swanny1790]

My understanding is that the risk of salmonella isn't to the dogs, but rather to the humans who are feeding the dogs. It would seem that more attention to hand-washing would prevent the problem, but humans, being human, aren't always so diligent as we should be.

I can't think of any topic more contentious among dog owners than food. If you put three dog people into the same room and ask them to describe the best feeding regimen, you'll get four different ideas and no two people agreeing to any one of them.

At this point I'm not aware of any strong scientific evidence that clearly supports eithera well formulated raw diet or a high quality kibble diet as being superior. That being case, it's up to each individual owner to determine what feeding regimen is most suitable for his or her individual dog(s).

If you think about it, neither (or both) can be particularly dangerous when given to an animal with a natural tendency toward coprophagia.

[mum24dog]

Explaining my logic

We prepare the food. Unless we are in a protective suit, we come into contact with the raw meat: it is in our shopping bags, our refrigerators, our hands, on our worktops and chopping boards, on our knives, and the residue is washed up however we do (we don't all have dishwashers). All this time it is raw.

So if it was seething with vile bacteria just about to multiply crazily and see us off, we would probably find out long before it cooked.

I'm sure you know that it doesn't take many bacteria to kick start a massive infection that could prove fatal. I think you have an over optimistic opinion of food safety, but at least you wash your hands. As long as people are aware of basic food hygiene rules to minimise cross contamination the risk is considerably reduced, whether raw or processed food is being used.

Easy enough to google the death and hospitalisation stats for human food borne infections.

A quick google myself looking for unbiased confirmation that the reason dogs don't suffer from salmonella infections and the like as often as humans is because they have a shorter and more acidic digestive tract hasn't come up with anything but it may be true.

[Nettle]

It's all about choices, isn't it?

"Life is a risk" says my vet. We never get out of it alive, for sure.

I've only got personal experience, but it's over 30 years now feeding my own dogs raw plus a large number of people I know with multiples of dogs do the same. No doubt there are multiples of people feeding dried too. All of us who are happy stay as we are, and the rest make changes. Raw feeders tend to study the subject very thoroughly before they make the move, because it's oooh scary to take the responsibility of feeding a dog because people like to tell us we can't do it right.

Hygiene? No, anyone seeing me and mine field-butcher wild meat would say that I probably wouldn't pass my hygiene exams any time soon. but that's my choice: I'm not recommending it to anyone else.

What I never do is take information at face value. I am the world's most dedicated sceptic. And any scaremongering flags up my scepticism a treat. I am certain that if there was any significant health risk to feeding dogs raw meat, we would well and truly have heard of it by now. First-hand. And I've heard nothing first-hand. So that works for me. Everyone else is equally at liberty to study, assess and decide for themselves.