Switching to Raw.

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bendog
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Switching to Raw.

Post by bendog »

Looks like we are going to try and switch to raw, or at least give it a months trial and see how we manage.
It's been recommended several times to help with Sasha's allergies, and boyfriend has no objections. And if we are going to be doing it for one dog, might as well do it for all three.

I know there is a wealth of information on here about raw feeding, but this is still really new (and scary) for me so if anyone could help by coming up with a meal plan for the first few weeks to help me know what to feed and how much that would be brilliant.

I'd be feeding 3 terriers. Obviously the puppy will need more than the others. Ben weighs about 18lb, Sash probably about 20lb, Pup a lot less but still growing.
Which means feeding 20% of their body weight would be about 3-4lb of meat a day?

I'd also prefer to avoid chicken as it seems to make Sasha's allergies worse.
I'll probably still use kibble as training treats for Ben and Pop, but stick to frozen peas, or cucumber with Sasha until I know if she can tolerate small amounts of kibble or not.



Also: if the dogs do turn out to love raw feeding and do much better I know I'm going to feel guilty about not starting Ben on it from a pup :?
Reassurance please?
Trying to tell myself that most humans (me included) don't have a perfect diet, so it's ok that our dogs haven't always.
bendog
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by bendog »

Oh, also, at the moment I don't cook or blend raw veg, they just get it whole.

I don't have a blender so guess I'll have to cook the veg for them slightly? Would a quick 30 second blast in the microwave be enough, or should I stop being so lazy and steam it properly!
ClareMarsh
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by ClareMarsh »

OOooo, your dogs are going to loooove you even more :D

I am not an expert on the veggie bit of things so I'll leave that to others and I'll deal with the meat, bones, animal bit 8)

Also I'm not sure which kibble you feed but I know some is not great for feeding alongside raw and if I were you I'd make my own treats :wink: I'm sure someone else will tell you which kibbles are ok and when is safe to use them.

As for Ben, well he's still not that old so I would say you're doing this in time for him to really benefit. You might find he takes longer to get his digestive system going properly compared to Pops but I really wouldn't worry about him :D

OK, what you are trying to get to with each dog is the following:

HOW MUCH
You either aim for 20% of their ideal adult weight (even the pup) over the course of a week OR you go with somewhere between 1 to 3% of their ideal adult weight per day. The range allows for differing activity levels etc. I'd start off with 2% and keep an eye on how they do, you can then adjust up or down accordingly, it really is only a guide and unless you have real piggies they tend not to overeat as much on raw as there's no additives etc to spur them on (think about how you are with a tube of pringles v a bag of grapes :shock: ). So that's how much, doesn't even need to be bang on every day, think about how some days you eat more than others and you're fine :D

WHAT
What you're trying to get to is a decent variety of RMB (although some dogs do manage ok on one protein source), chicken (although hear what you say re Sash), turkey and rabbit are all excellent base meats (as I call them as in what is your default meat and then you add variety to that). For these animals your dogs should be able to pretty much eat every part of the animal (as opposed to cattle where leg bones would be too hard for them to eat). Alongside this you can feed pork ribs, lamb ribs, pretty much whatever you can get your hands on to give them a variety of meat sources.

There are varying levels of bone in amongst that that people feed and some dogs do better on more bone, some less, Ted tends to need a bit of bone in most meals or I am cleaning up less than solid poos, this is something I worked out with Ted over time and if you don't get it spot on from day one it really doesn't matter, you can tweak as you go.

In addition to the above you want about 10% of their diet to be offal (and about half of this liver), this is on average over time, not every day so I feed liver once or twice a week and kidney and ox heart once a week. I'd be bringing the liver in first but veeeeery slowly, think a nail cutting amount to start with and build from there or you will get bottom explosions :shock: So to start with they won't be getting 10% per week, you build up to this.

Because our meat tends to be heavily fed on grain it's good for the dogs to get some oily fish (sardines are good for this and nice and cheap), I feed Ted fish once or twice a week. Some dogs don't like fish and you can give them salmon oil instead (which I guess would be good for Sash), these oils vary in quality so be careful, if it were me I'd use the oil to start with and then introduce raw fish later so you're not trying to do too many things at once.

Finally they'll benefit from a raw egg once a week or so but again I'd leave this until you've got the main bit of the diet sorted.

I would say it took me two to three months to get to what I describe above so don't feel you need to do it all at once as that is why people never start it!

HOW TO START

I would start with rabbit (There is a great rabbit supplier in the Shetlands who delivers nationally. His name is David and the telephone number is 01950 460113. He will prepare the rabbit how you wish i.e. with skin and fur, without fur, without fur and skin, etc. I'd use him as you'll be getting through some with 3 of them!). If you opt for the rabbit to have the offal left in (I do) then I would remove this and turn it into treats/keep it in the freezer to feed them when you start to introduce it). Give each dog the amount you've calculated they need (separate them as even dogs that have eaten kibble side by side in harmony can get a bit excitable around RMB) and let them get on with it. If they look confused cut some slits in the flesh so that they can smell more. Ted play bowed to his first ever raw meal and danced around it for 5 minutes before taking a tentative lick then getting stuck in. Some dogs take to it easier than others.

With Sash I would stick with rabbit only for a good month and see how she does, I understand allergies can take a while to respond and if you give her other meats too soon you'll never know how each thing is effecting her. It really is no problem to give her the same type of food over and over as it's only in the short term.

With Ben and Pops you just need them to have nice solid poos for a good few days so you know they are digesting ok and you're feeding the right amounts and right amount of bone etc (as you're chopping up whole rabbits they should get the right bone to meat ratio). This can take days or weeks, it really doesn't matter and there's no rush to introduce variety, I had Ted on chicken for a month before I even started with liver etc.

Once you've got solid poos and you're happy start bringing in the offal (SLOWLY) and then when you've got this sorted try other proteins, fish etc but always do it so that you know how each thing is effecting them.

As you have 3 dogs to switch and one of the is Sash I'd be tempted to speadsheet what you put in and what comes out :shock: :lol: For me it would be the only way to keep track, but you may have a better memory.

FEAR

The first time you do this your heart may stop beating. I spent the first few times fearing Ted would choke, cut his mouth on a bone etc etc. It's normal to worry but they will be fine. Sometimes Ted gets something stuck on the roof of his mouth or swallows an over ambitious large piece and has to wait for it to go down but he is always fine. Your dogs are as likely to choke on kibble etc as raw :roll: Now I really don't worry at all, I don't let him eat unsupervised but I am completely relaxed and he is a pro now. He leaves bones shards which goes to show he knows what is and isn't safe.

AND FINALLY

You don't have to get it 100% right from the start for it to be better than kibble and your dogs to be ok. You never have to get it 100% right every day, it's balance over time that is important (the pet food companies have confused us with their balanced every day pish) so it is easy once you get the hang of it.

It will be the best thing you ever did and before you know it you will wonder how you could possibly feed them anything but a raw diet.

Come back and ask as much as you want, no question is too silly or trivial, and there's always PM for the :oops: questions :D
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
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bendog
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Re: Sigh, that was difficult

Post by bendog »

Argh, my poor brain is melting with all this info. Although thank you for it because I really wouldn't know where to start.

They'll need roughly 160g/day. But not sure how this translates as real food. A rabbit each a week? Do I literally just chop off a 160g chunk and leave them to it!
ClareMarsh
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by ClareMarsh »

Rabbits vary in size a lot so some will do you 4 or so meals, some as many as 8. Yep, just chop the amount off (you'll soon get used to roughly what that looks like) and hand it over :D

I would take the organs out until they've had a chance to get used to raw and then to liver etc but otherwise yeah, give a chunk of meat on the bone. I feed ted on a towel as it gets a little bit messy sometimes.

Oh and rabbits need to be frozen before you feed them to kill any parasites. You can feed the dogs frozen food no problem (although some dogs don't like it and prefer to wait for it to defrost) or you can defrost it first (not by microwaving or anything just leave out at room temperature). I'd feed defrosted to start with as it's smellier so they're more likely to get what it is :D Then if you have a gulper you can feed them frozen to slow them down.

Sorry about the tonne of info, I wanted you to see where you were headed but also that the start bits easy :?
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
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Horace's Mum
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by Horace's Mum »

Just wanted to say, as someone who only moved on to raw a month or so ago, it really isn't as bad as you think. I haven't got all my suppliers etc sorted yet, just managed to get a little chest freezer so can buy in bulk, but until now I have had to rely on what I can get from supermarkets and the pet shop. I opted for using the prepackaged stuff to begin with, because it is easy and I wouldn't lose much if Horus didn't take to it. Horus eats a lot of fruit and veg anyway, so I have to say I don't give him any blended stuff, and he only gets cooked when I have cooked.

If it helps, Horus weighs 15kg at optimum, but does very well on most food so I opted for 2% rather than 3% bodyweight. So he has 100g of prepacked minced stuff in the morning - anything from rabbit, turkey, chicken, lamb, offal, raw fish or a mix of the above. He has tinned mackerel (1 tin does 2 days) every week or two. Once a week he gets a couple of raw eggs with a tiny handful of raw oats (they help him in various ways) instead of meat.

For dinner he gets a couple of pieces (about 200g) of frozen chicken, or a couple of pork ribs, or lamb if I can get it. I did feed fresh at first, but forgot to defrost one night so gave it to him frozen, and he does much better with that - chews it better and it lasts 10mins as opposed to 3 mouthfuls. I am planning on getting hold of bulk chicken carcasses, lamb ribs, and would love to try the rabbit man suggested above.

That's about it. At some point I will be getting salmon oil, because he did really well on a sample I had in terms of his joints, and he has gone from an oily fish based diet to a meat based diet, so I want to make up for that. I also need to tweak the bone content somehow because he is doing a bit too well, but I can't reduce his rations any more due to his stomach problems.

What is interesting is that he has never been able to tolerate cooked pig products of any kind, but has never had a single problem with raw pork. He has also never ever been really good in the stools department, no matter what I fed him (the best was fish4dogs but even that was very variable) but I switched almost overnight and he has not looked back. In fact the only problems I've had is when I give him kibble for tea instead of bones - I never intended to give up kibble completely but it obviously doesn't suit him as well as raw.

Horus is 7, I have resisted this for the 4 years I have had him due to me not wanting to risk him learning to scavenge dead stuff which would mean he could never be offlead again (being deaf, if he scents something dead, I would never find him again until he decided to return), and I still haven't had chance to test this yet, but tbh if he has to stay on his longline from now on, it wouldn't be the end of the world if his stomach is less painful for him than it always has been.But I don't think it is ever too late, and it is pointless feeling guilty about not starting before now - we all do the best we can for that moment in time, and if you couldn't do it before for whatever reason, then you did the best you could for Ben. Look at it the other way, if he does well how happy he will be that you have changed him over at all - many dogs never get to try it!!
bendog
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by bendog »

Thank you both so much for all your kind information and advice.

I'm hoping to leave Uni early today to get to the butchers and see what they will be able to provide. Our butcher seems quite good and they advertise wild game (rabbit, pheasant, duck etc) as well, but not sure of prices or how often this is available. Still, once the dogs are set up on raw it would be nice to add a bit of variety.

The mornings are the main problem for me, since I don't have much time and I'd have to feed straight after their morning walk. At the moment they get a Kong each when I leave and that's their breakfast basically and I was wondering if it would be ok to continue doing this, but use veg, yoghurt, cheese, fish etc in the Kongs instead of kibble, and then only give the meat at night?

I'm going to try and bag meat up into meals/days (e.g. three chunks in a bag) enough for the week, or however long I can stretch too and then I can just grab one from the freezer and split it between them. This would make life easier for me and would also mean my boyfriend could feed them sometimes (I don't see him chopping up bunnies! :lol: ).

I already give a raw egg a week which they do fine with (though they leave the shell) - would an egg be instead of a meat meal, or as well as? Most days there would be some kind of supplement to their meal, either fish, or yoghurt or egg or offal (when I introduce it) so does this mean you feed slightly less meat or is the 2% body weight thing excluding the extras?
ClareMarsh
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by ClareMarsh »

That's how I feed Ted, I butcher it all up then freeze in ted size portions :D

The offal etc is included in the 2% of body weight. Just remember that it doesn't have to be absolutely spot on every day as long as you don't constantly over or under feed.

And I do think feeding the meat separate to the veggies etc is sensible as the way I understand it different stomach acidity levels are needed for processing meat v veg etc so as that will work better for you too it's a bonus :D
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bendog
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Re: Sigh, that was difficult

Post by bendog »

Sorry for all the questions. How long does the rabbit have to be frozen for before it's safe to feed?
bendog
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Re: Sigh, that was difficult

Post by bendog »

Oh, and I chopped it up but I've never butchered anything in my life before so theres some bits on the legs that seem a bit sharp will they be ok?
ClareMarsh
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by ClareMarsh »

I freeze for two weeks before feeding rabbit and fish.

When you butcher up RMB you inevitably end up with some sharp ends. With rabbit legs Ted can't physically crunch them down so he leaves some of the shards having got the meat off and chewed on them for a bit. With softer bones he will crunch the sharp ends up with the meat and eat them.

Provided they are fed with meat attached they should be fine. Any bits like that left at the end then throw them away or they may go back to them later on and they'll be dried out by then.
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
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Horace's Mum
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by Horace's Mum »

It's fine to fill the kongs with other stuff, but take into account the calorific value of cheese!! You can also buy the mince, partially defrost it so you can squash it in, and then freeze it again, so you can give meat in the kong if you so wish. But remember, fish is just as important as meat, so putting fish, yoghurt and veg in would be a good meal in itself (assuming you use tinned fish in this instance?)
bendog
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Re: Sigh, that was difficult

Post by bendog »

2 weeks! Good job I checked, I would've given it tomorrow!
Don't think I will have a problem with getting them to eat it! Sash was VERY interested when I was chopping it up, and trying to swipe it from the counter.

Horaces Mum: Yes, I use tinned fish. Typically they have a tin of fish (sardines or mackeral) split between the three of them (so a 120g tin means 40g fish each) in their Kongs; usually with a raw carrot or frozen peas or whatever veg as breakfast twice a week. Then they have yoghurt twice a week frozen in Kongs (I used to mix with kibble, feeding raw means I can mix it with veg or something instead), and an egg each once a week. Cheese I used to melt and mix with kibble once a week, but again, I can melt it to the sides of the Kong just on it's own, or with broccoli or something.
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minkee
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by minkee »

Good for you Bendog :D the dogs'll love it. Hope it doesn't cause any fracas when feeding it!

Couple of tips from me - If you can't get to the butchers or want a nice easy backup, you can get frozen chicken portions in the freezer section at supermarkets. They're a nice easy way to get into it without having to butcher anything. Also you often find nice bits of on bone lamb or pork in the reduced section if you're lucky.

I would recommend investing in a blender. They're fairly cheap (I think I paid about £20?) and if you mix up a batch of something you can put it into icecube trays, but also into any little dishes or rammakins you have (I've just thought, maybe cupcake cases would work too?) and they make for a really nice easy treat to grab out the freezer and keep pups occupied without worrying about overfeeding etc.

Finally - it gets easier! After doing this for a couple of weeks you'll wonder what all the fuss was about - it turns into the easiest thing in the world, and something you can have fun experimenting with. You can't really get it wrong! If you feed them a bunch and they start to look like they're gaining weight, just cut back and add in more veg. If you feel like they had a lot one day (perhaps because you didn't want to cut a portion smaller, for your ease) then you can just feed them less the next day and it balances out. It is an art, but not a fine one :D

One last thing - you might be doing this already, but consider writing a list of everything that Sasha eats, and how she does, so you can hopefully start to see some sort of correlation between the two.

Good luck! And enjoy it :D
jacksdad
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Re: Switching to Raw.

Post by jacksdad »

Jack has been on a Raw Meaty bone based diet, plus veggies and other fresh foods for about 2 months now give or take a couple weeks. He transitioned pretty smoothly, no issues. not even diarrhea. in his case the diarrhea he was having with the cooked food and/or commercial food went away as I moved him to the raw diet starting with fresh raw veggies, then later transitioned to raw meat on the bone.

he wasn't so sure about the chicken wings to start, but he ate them and within a couple days he was acting like he was winning the Lottery at ever meal. he even eats his veggies strait no problems there.
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