Squishy poos!

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JudyN
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Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:18 pm

Jasper never did nice firm 'kickable' poos until we moved him onto a raw diet. I've noticed over the last few weeks/months they've been getting a bit softer again - still formed, but mostly softer, bulkier and slightly fibrous.

In the morning he has 400g mixed minces (including bone & cartilage) and 400g pureed veg. The veg comes in three varieties - red, green and yellow - and you can tell which he's had from the colour of what comes out :lol: Evening meal is two chicken carcasses. He also has Burns kibble, sausage, dried fish and occasionally a random dog biscuit as training treats, and a 'bedtime biscuit' (JWB grain free). His weight is fine, IMO.

The first poo of the day is nice and firm. He goes often - he can do two or three on his morning walk and the same on the afternoon walk, and they soften up as the day goes on. I tend to think that you shouldn't worry too much about what comes out when a dog's running, playing and getting excited though! Some days they're a little shiny/slimy, but I wonder if that's just his anal glands doing their job.

I wondered if I should cut down on the veg, but don't know if he could then be missing out on some essentials. Or should I just be happy he's not producing pancakes and stop examining his poos in detail? :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

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Nettle
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by Nettle » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:48 am

Poo watching is an arcane skill among dog enthusiasts :lol: and a good way to check health.

We have a lovely vet comes on here from time to time - Duffy Jones - and he explained the poo phenomenon like this: during the night, the bowel absorbs water from the digested material, so the first poos of the day tend to be firmer. During the day, the bowel does not have this opportunity, so the poos are sloppier. Add a bit of excitement and - oooooh :shock:

Keep on with the veggies. Will he eat plain yoghurt? It's very good for restoring balance in bowel friendly bacteria.
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JudyN
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:52 am

Nettle wrote:Will he eat plain yoghurt? It's very good for restoring balance in bowel friendly bacteria.
Yep, I'll get him some. Thanks, Nettle :D
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

JudyN
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:33 am

Despite adding live yoghurt, Jasper's poos haven't improved and I've also seen bits of undigested bone in them (from chicken carcasses), so got in touch with his food supplier. I thought I'd post their reply in case it was helpful to others - or in case anyone disagreed with any of it!

I'm wary about reducing the amount he eats, but it does make sense that if he can digest it better he'll need less. He may disagree.... :lol:

Unfortunately this email got lost en route to me the first time so I've just filled the freezer with the usual amounts of mince, veg & carcasses, and also a large selection of lamb and venison bones. Oh well, I'm sure they'll come in.
Hello Judy.
>
> Thank you for your questions.
>
> If you are seeing bone come through in the poo then, as you say, he is not digesting the bone fully yet so I would go back to the minced meats for a while.
>
> I would also reduce the veg portion by about a half and feed about 600g of meat in total each day. You seem to be feeding a lot at the moment - more than I would expect for his size.
> I know you say he is very lean but reducing the amount may give him a better opportunity to digest his food and hopefully he will also not need to empty himself as often.
> He is doing a lot of poo (five a day is a high number) for the amount he is eating so he may benefit from the pig pancreas as this will help him to utilize more of his food. One square with each meal is usually all that is needed.
>
> Please check the ingredients of his treats and see if they contain any cereals. Even a small amount of cereals can unbalance his digestion if he is sensitive to them and so inhibit the digestion of bone as it reduces the strength of the stomach acid.
> Cooked sausage is an unknown quantity but the cheese should be ok so long as he can tolerate milk.
>
>
> Please let us know how you and Jasper get on.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Ari_RR
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by Ari_RR » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:58 am

I see references to number of times a dog poops per day... And if it's a high number, then it seems to be a concern...

How do people count?

For example:

Ari has 2 meals a day (breakfast and dinner)
He goes for a 1-2 hr long walk early morning, and during the walk he poops twice.
Then breakfast.
Then he goes for another 1 hr long walk late afternoon, and again poops twice.
Then dinner.
He doesnt go out after dinner.
Does this count as 4 times? Or 2 times?

bendog
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by bendog » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:03 am

Oh Judy I love that you emailed someone to discuss poo!

I have no helpful advice

Ben poos 3 or 4 times a day, but he can do three in one walk if it's a long walk - I think he cuts them short so he doesn't get left too far behind, but then needs to finish it off later!
Poppy does 2-3 a day, Sasha twice a day. All are fed about the same yet poos vary widely between them in squishiness!
Sashas are actually the best.

So yeah - perhaps it just varies between dogs.

JudyN
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:07 am

I've often wondered if all poos are equal, Ari :lol: I think Jasper does one first thing in the morning. Then he'll do one at the start of the walk, which seems like a 'this is the time to poo' poo, and one later in the walk which is an 'excitement' poo, or possibly a 'I need to be as light as I can to run at full speed' poo, or just a 'all this running around has made my digestion get going' poo.

The more exciting the walk, the more likely there will be even more poos, and don't even think about trying to pick up the later ones :roll:

Bendog, discussing poo seems to be more common that discussing the weather amongst dog walkers. Jasper also does traffic light poos, but this is because his mixed veg comes in three colour varieties - red, orange and green. Sometimes they change colour halfway through a poo :lol:

OK, I'll shut up for now.... :oops:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Sarah83
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by Sarah83 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:27 am

Spencer poops 3 times in the first half hour we're out on our daily walk, one proper one and two really little ones. Then he'll go for another proper one before bed. I don't worry about how often he goes, it's not changed in the 2 and a half months I've had him so I figure it's just normal for him :?

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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:36 am

I'm not really worried about the frequency. I'm just pretty sure that on raw feeding they (or at least most of them) should be a lot firmer - and that I shouldn't be seeing bits of undigested bone in them.

I'm not convinced he's eating that much more than he should - at 2-3% of bodyweight he should be having 600-900g per day. He has the equivalent of 800g meat + 400g veg (which presumably doesn't count for so much), plus a lot of training treats, small bedtime biscuits, the occasional dollop of yoghurt & leftovers. OK, maybe that is quite a lot....
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Sarah83
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by Sarah83 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:16 am

:shock: How much does he weigh Judy? Rupert was on over 1kg of meat a day on raw 3% of his body weight (35kg) was just over 1kg. It's the only diet he was on where he didn't need 3 times the recommended amount to maintain weight. I expected Jasper to be heavier than Rupert. Rupe got extras, like table scraps, veggies and treats too.

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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:36 am

He's around 31-2kg, Sarah (I rounded him down to 30kg to make the sums easier :oops: ). He may be tall, but he's nowt but skin and bone! They do say owners get to look like their dogs. I'm still waiting...
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jacksdad
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by jacksdad » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:56 am

So just a couple observations from Jack, which might confuse the issue a bit as he has two possible causes for stools that aren't nice firm "sausages" that others might not. In his case....

1. his two of his medications for his seizures can cause issues from soft to "squishy" all the way to liquid diarrhea
2. he might have inflammatory bowl disease. emphasize might.

So there are factors in his case that might make the following observations non applicable to others.....

1. meat with no bone fed to often = soft or loose stools
2. meat with bone = firm to very firm to hard stools to almost point of boarder line constipation
3. fibrous veggies (verse just any veggie) helps promote health stool (healthy being non runny, overly soft)
4. too much of some veggies such as cabbage and broccoli can cause up set tummies. BUT we are talking A LOT of these veggies. As in making up a HUGE amount of the diet.
4. the plainest yoghurt possible with live cultures helps maintain intestinal health
5. plain cooked pumpkin no additives helps firm up stools
6. too much of some fruits can cause looser stools.
7. introducing new foods too fast in too large of a quantity can cause up set tummies/intestines resulting in loose/squishy stools.

For his size Jack actually gets A LOT of food. But then he also puts out A LOT of energy too.

I have found that he seems to do best with about a 1/2 cup of really minced up veggies a day, and not exclusively eating raw meaty bones. about 4 times a week he gets about a 1/3 cup of minced up plain chicken breast, rest of the time he gets a chicken wing. and that seems to keep his stools the vast majority of the time firm but not so hard he is overly straining to go OR having too loose or squishy stools.

the above isn't his exclusive selection of food, just his core menu. I am working on expanding it, but I have noticed if I move too fast it causes problems and sets us back. I have also noticed that if I start feeding too much he has to poop a lot more in volume and a lot more frequently.

I also don't feed Jack an identical quantity every day. some days he gets more than the day before, and less tomorrow. Some days he gets a bit more veggies, then tomorrow he gets a bit less. same with meat.

so you might need to play with proportions. some days a little heavier on the leafy, fibrous veggies and a little less meat. other days a little heavier on the meat and a little lighter on the veggies.

Maybe cut out the kibble all together.

Oh, oh...fat. I have noticed that Jack doesn't seem to handle too much fat on his meat. could Jasper also be sensitive to high levels of fats in his food?

It sounds like you buy your raw food pre prepared. have you tried 100% making it your self from very fresh human grade food? might be worth while as a control to narrow down where the problem maybe coming in. So you have a much better feel for what the quality of the meat is, how much fat, how much and why kind of veggies etc.

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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by ClareMarsh » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:09 pm

If I overfeed Ted things get much more squishy at the other end so I'd play around with volume, a few days of reducing it won't hurt, despite what he might tell you :lol: Also this comes from only knowing a little about BARF but to me 1/3 of his diet (ignoring treats, biscuits etc) being veggies seems on the high side, perhaps try cutting down that percent and see how that does, that way you could keep his volume of RMB the same. I would also look at what's in the treats/biscuits to make sure he isn't getting grains, whilst you could argue a little won't hurt if he's not digesting bone then I'd want to remove anything that might be impacting on that.

It might even be worth weighing everything you give him in one day to see how much you are actually feeding him because it might be more than you think :wink:

I can see why they say feed minced rather than RMB for a while but it's kind of a vicious circle as the chewing of RMB sets up the digestive system ready to deal with the bone, gulping down minced up bone (as well as the teeth cleaning loss) does not set up the gut as well and increases the bacteria load due to the surface area of the food being increased. So if I was really worried about him pooing out large pieces of bone I'd be really focussing on sorting out the underlying cause asap, which of course you are :D
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:26 pm

jacksdad wrote:It sounds like you buy your raw food pre prepared. have you tried 100% making it your self from very fresh human grade food? might be worth while as a control to narrow down where the problem maybe coming in. So you have a much better feel for what the quality of the meat is, how much fat, how much and why kind of veggies etc.
To be honest, I trust their preparation more than my own :lol: I can't give Jasper too many RMB because of his guarding - it's no problem if it's something he'll eat reasonably quickly, such as the chicken carcasses, but if he should take one off to a quiet corner and I approach him not realising it's still there, there could be issues. So I like the fact that their mince mixes have the cartilage & bone included. He also gets more variety, though there does seem to be quite a lot of venison in today's delivery - I wonder if that's a bit rich? As I understand it, in the UK raw food sold for dogs has to be human quality. Here's the website if you're interested: http://www.nurturingbynature.co.uk/default.asp

The raw veggies are an enormous range - a typical container may well have Carrot, Cabbage, Sprouts, Apple, Banana, Pineapple, Lettuce, Cucumber, Orange, Ginger, Parsnip, Beetroot, Garlic and Parsley in it, but it will depend on colour and season. So difficult to exclude anything dodgy, but on the other hand he's not going to get very much of one particular type.

Clare, that's how I feel about feeding just mince - it's a bit of a catch-22! I think to start off I'm going to stick to what he's having now but cut the veg down by half and introduce the pancreas when they get some in. I'm toying with the idea of converting the cat to raw too so I might reduce Jasper's meat quantities a bit by giving some to the cat! I do suspect the veg - his poos have a fibrous look to them - so I might even cut it out altogether for a few days.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

JudyN
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Re: Squishy poos!

Post by JudyN » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:01 pm

Oops, meant to add - the kibble I use most is Burns Chicken & Brown Rice, which also has oats in. So I dare say I should cut that out. I also use Fish4Dogs which has no grain but does have potato. Should I cut that out?
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

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