intussusception

[amzh86]

Hi all, i was wondering whether any other puppies have had this medical condition. My puppy had this at 11weeks old and needed surgery in order to save him. I was looking for some advice on what worked for each of you food wise

[rawnora]

Hi,
Since nobody has offered any advice I'll just offer my 2 cents. So that everyone reading this will know, intussusception is when the large intestine "telescopes" back into itself, setting up a sometimes life-threatening blockage situation. It is believed to be caused primarily by inflammation or can be the result of blockage by a foreign object.

I have no stats or experience to back this up, but my impression is that this condition is most often caused by misfeeding (as most dog health problems are). However, unfortunately the possibility always exists that the dog ingested something accidentally that passed through the stomach intact to travel further into the digestive tract and create a blockage. So that needs to be investigated, since the only way to deal with it is surgical intervention. I suspect palpation can sometimes reveal enough information, but more often, x-rays will probably be necessary to rule it out.

It should also be noted that there may be situations where the blockage is life threatening even if it's just caused by inflammation, in which case surgical intervention MAY be the only answer. If it was me I would be very cautious, because the physiological costs of surgery are very high. And because vets are not aware of the real causes and proper treatment of inflammation, they often both exaggerate the need for surgery and downplay its costs and risks. In cases where the blockage is not acute and life-threatening, withholding food for 2-5 days would allow the body to resolve the inflammation and repair the damage.

Inflammation responds very well to fasting. I recently cared for a dog whose eye was swollen shut and she couldn't open her mouth to bark or yawn without intense pain. After 5 days of fasting on water only and no other treatment, her eye was completely normal. I wrote a detailed blog post about my experience here: http://www.nomorevetbills.com/blog/ if you're interested.

The way that vets treat inflammation is very harmful. Inflammation is not caused by bacterial 'invasion', as is almost universally assumed. Rather, it is caused by the accumulation of extraordinary bodily wastes, which "invite" bacteria to feed. The presence of bacteria in the body, especially at the site of inflammation, is incidental and symbiotic, not causal. Administering toxic substances intended to kill bacteria only adds to the toxic burden and creates more harm. All that is necessary is to remove the source of the waste and allow the body the time it needs to cleanse and repair itself. The digestive tract actually heals quite quickly when causes are removed and it is allowed to rest.

Once the immediate inflammation is resolved, whether by fasting or surgery, you need to look seriously at what you've been feeding. Commercial dog foods create a great burden for puppies just being weaned from nature's perfect food (mother's milk). Their bodies are completely unprotected against the onslaught of chemicals and harmful substances contained in commercial foods which are completely foreign to dogs. Even feeding home-cooked foods to puppies or dogs can have the same result, because at no time in their very long biological history (until the last blink of an eye) have dogs had access to cooked foods. Cooking destroys nutrients in food, which renders them largely unusable and burdens the body with their elimination rather than offering sustenance.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but in dogs that have experienced this problem once there is a great potential for it to recur. That's because not very many people figure out the real underlying causes, and address them. If you do, it's very likely that your pup will never have to endure this problem again. Feel free to email me privately if you'd like more information ([email protected]).

Best wishes,
Nora
http://www.NoMoreVetBills.com

[Mattie]

Hi,
Since nobody has offered any advice I'll just offer my 2 cents. So that everyone reading this will know, intussusception is when the large intestine "telescopes" back into itself, setting up a sometimes life-threatening blockage situation. It is believed to be caused primarily by inflammation or can be the result of blockage by a foreign object.

If this was my dog I would be more worried about my dog dying if they were not operated on than why at the moment, once the operation is over and the dog recovering then I will want to know why.

I have no stats or experience to back this up, but my impression is that this condition is most often caused by misfeeding (as most dog health problems are). However, unfortunately the possibility always exists that the dog ingested something accidentally that passed through the stomach intact to travel further into the digestive tract and create a blockage. So that needs to be investigated, since the only way to deal with it is surgical intervention. I suspect palpation can sometimes reveal enough information, but more often, x-rays will probably be necessary to rule it out.

Why do you belive that this is caused by misfeeding?

It should also be noted that there may be situations where the blockage is life threatening even if it's just caused by inflammation, in which case surgical intervention MAY be the only answer. If it was me I would be very cautious, because the physiological costs of surgery are very high. And because vets are not aware of the real causes and proper treatment of inflammation, they often both exaggerate the need for surgery and downplay its costs and risks. In cases where the blockage is not acute and life-threatening, withholding food for 2-5 days would allow the body to resolve the inflammation and repair the damage.

Are you suggesting that this owner just gives her dog water for 2 to 5 days to resolve this problem?

Inflammation responds very well to fasting. I recently cared for a dog whose eye was swollen shut and she couldn't open her mouth to bark or yawn without intense pain. After 5 days of fasting on water only and no other treatment, her eye was completely normal. I wrote a detailed blog post about my experience here: http://www.nomorevetbills.com/blog/ if you're interested.

How did you deal with the pain the dog was in?

The way that vets treat inflammation is very harmful. Inflammation is not caused by bacterial 'invasion', as is almost universally assumed. Rather, it is caused by the accumulation of extraordinary bodily wastes, which "invite" bacteria to feed. The presence of bacteria in the body, especially at the site of inflammation, is incidental and symbiotic, not causal. Administering toxic substances intended to kill bacteria only adds to the toxic burden and creates more harm. All that is necessary is to remove the source of the waste and allow the body the time it needs to cleanse and repair itself. The digestive tract actually heals quite quickly when causes are removed and it is allowed to rest.

Surely it depends on the reason there is inflamation, like everything else there are many reasons for inflamation not just waste.

Once the immediate inflammation is resolved, whether by fasting or surgery, you need to look seriously as what you've been feeding. Commercial dog foods create a great burden for puppies just being weaned from nature's perfect food (mother's milk). Their bodies are completely unprotected against the onslaught of chemicals and harmful substances contained in commercial foods which are completely foreign to dogs.

You can get some decent dog foods these day, not all are rubbish that damages our dogs.

Even feeding home-cooked foods to puppies or dogs can have the same result, because at no time in their very long biological history (until the last blink of an eye) have dogs had access to cooked foods. Cooking destroys nutrients in food, which renders them largely unusable and burdens the body with their elimination rather than offering sustenance.

Not always true, a lot depends on how the food is cooked and what is with it. I home cooked for one of my dogs when she was in kidney failure, I did take advice on this and it was a well balanced food that she needed.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but in dogs that have experienced this problem once there is a great potential for it to recur. That's because not very many people figure out the real underlying causes, and address them. If you do, it's very likely that your pup will never have to endure this problem again. Feel free to email me privately if you'd like more information ([email protected]).

I had a dog that was allergic to raw meat, how would you feed a dog like him?

[emmabeth]

rawnora - did you intend your post to effectively advise people to starve their dogs and not see a vet? because that is the implied message there and its downright dangerous. As for leaving a dog five days without food to reduce an inflammation, I would expect inflammation to go down over that time period ANYWAY I highly doubt that the starvation was the cure there, though the reduction in movement of the jaw might have helped a little. Of course if you leave an inflamed eye for five days and theres something else going on, an infection for example, by the end of the five days you could have a very ill dog who is blind in that eye.

To the OP - intussusception not hugely common in puppies, its serious and can result in part of the bowel having no or a compromised blood supply meaning it can die off and that can kill your dog, very quickly. It is not something to muck about with.

I would feed the best quality food available, which may or may not be a raw diet, and be super vigilant about ensuring puppy does not swallow anything that could create a blockage (however we should ALL do that anyway as a blockage is potentially very dangerous for any dog).

[rawnora]

Hi Mattie,
I have responded to your comments individually, below.

"If this was my dog I would be more worried about my dog dying if they were not operated on than why at the moment, once the operation is over and the dog recovering then I will want to know why."

**In all life-threatening situations, what is necessary to save the life is what should be done first, of course. You’ll note I did say something to that effect in my original comments.

"Why do you belive that this is caused by misfeeding?"

**That’s the largest source of uneliminated toxins and wastes which lead to inflammation, although other factors contribute as well.

"Are you suggesting that this owner just gives her dog water for 2 to 5 days to resolve this problem?"

**Yes, unless a life-threatening situation (as mentioned above) exists.

"How did you deal with the pain the dog was in? "

**The dog knew how to manage her own pain, by not opening her mouth and keeping still as much as possible. It is harmful and dangerous to dull a dog’s pain unless this is absolutely necessary, because it removes the signal that the dog receives from her body that the area must not be moved. In this way, and in terms of the body’s toxic load, pain medications can greatly impede healing. Sometimes this cost is worth the benefit, but most often, it is not even considered.

"Surely it depends on the reason there is inflamation, like everything else there are many reasons for inflamation not just waste."

**Inflammation can sometimes result from injury, but even then it is often caused because the bloodstream is so polluted that the cells can’t function and heal properly. Here is a good article on the causes and proper treatment of inflammation, if you’re interested: http://www.selfhealingempowerment.com/a ... ation.html

"You can get some decent dog foods these day, not all are rubbish that damages our dogs."

**Some are better than others, but they are all health-destroying to varying extents. Optimal feeding means no commercial foods. A dog with existing health problems needs to be given the best chance to heal, and that means optimal.

"Not always true, a lot depends on how the food is cooked and what is with it. I home cooked for one of my dogs when she was in kidney failure, I did take advice on this and it was a well balanced food that she needed. "

**Some foods are made more digestible by cooking. I’m thinking of starchy vegetables, like yams, for example. Others are harmed and made less digestible. Proteins and certain micronutrients, for example.

"I had a dog that was allergic to raw meat, how would you feed a dog like him? "

**The “allergy” concept is flawed and misused, so I’d have to look at each case individually. It is often assumed that when hypersensitivity to normal stimuli exists, the only answer is to avoid the offending stimuli. Usually, however, there are other ways to resolve the problem once and for all.

Best wishes,
Nora
http://www.NoMoreVetBills.com

[rawnora]

Emmabeth,

The term “fast” is not interchangeable with “starve”. The latter refers to what happens when fuel reserves are used up and death has either occurred or is imminent. This is generally many weeks or months away from the beginning of a fast, which is a safe, health-building process undertaken to allow the body to direct its energies to healing and recovery.

Dogs have tremendous capacity to store fuel reserves on their bodies, even while not appearing overweight. Wolves have been known to go long periods without food, routinely. Domestic dogs benefit greatly from abstinence from food, especially when symptoms are present. Fasting is dictated by nature in cases of sickness or injury because an injured or sick dog cannot hunt.

Some really good books have been written about fasting, but not about fasting dogs, unfortunately. However, what we know about fasting is universally applicable to all species. Here are two good titles, if you’d like to do more reading: “Fasting Can Save Your Life” by Herbert Shelton and “The Miracle of Fasting” by Paul Bragg.

I would never “advise … people to not see a vet”, if that’s what they wanted or needed to do. It is up to each individual dog owner to decide when veterinary intervention is warranted.

Best wishes,
Nora
http://www.NoMoreVetBills.com

[Mattie]

Hi Mattie,
I have responded to your comments individually, below.

"If this was my dog I would be more worried about my dog dying if they were not operated on than why at the moment, once the operation is over and the dog recovering then I will want to know why."

**In all life-threatening situations, what is necessary to save the life is what should be done first, of course. You’ll note I did say something to that effect in my original comments.

Your first post came over as if you were saying to ignore her vet and starve her dog for up to 5 days, to me that is dangerous advice, what would happen if she took this advice and the dog died?

"Why do you belive that this is caused by misfeeding?"

**That’s the largest source of uneliminated toxins and wastes which lead to inflammation, although other factors contribute as well.

I would say over vaccinations, flea and tick treatments, over worming all put a lot more dangerous toxins into our dogs than the food we feed.

"Are you suggesting that this owner just gives her dog water for 2 to 5 days to resolve this problem?"

**Yes, unless a life-threatening situation (as mentioned above) exists.

How can an owner tell, there are many vets who take advantage of owners but also a lot of vets that do have the dog's health as a priority. I think your post is extremely dangerous and hasn't taken into account the lack of knowledge that many owners have. It takes years to gain a lot of knowlege, many owners don't have that experience but will take advice thinking that it is good advice. I have seen this far too often on the internet, when things go wrong the person giving the bad advice walks away.

"How did you deal with the pain the dog was in? "

**The dog knew how to manage her own pain, by not opening her mouth and keeping still as much as possible. It is harmful and dangerous to dull a dog’s pain unless this is absolutely necessary, because it removes the signal that the dog receives from her body that the area must not be moved. In this way, and in terms of the body’s toxic load, pain medications can greatly impede healing. Sometimes this cost is worth the benefit, but most often, it is not even considered.

Not every dog has a toxin overload, there are many these days who don't because their owner has more knowledge and experience, not moving what hurts isn't managing their pain, that pain is still there only not as bad. There are quite a few homeopathic remedies that help with pain, to leave any animal in pain to me is cruel.

I have experienced intense pain and had a hip replaced, I had a doctor who said I had to learnt to cope with the pain but thankfully another thought differently and my hip was preplaced, now that really did make my hip pain free.

"Surely it depends on the reason there is inflamation, like everything else there are many reasons for inflamation not just waste."

**Inflammation can sometimes result from injury, but even then it is often caused because the bloodstream is so polluted that the cells can’t function and heal properly. Here is a good article on the causes and proper treatment of inflammation, if you’re interested: http://www.selfhealingempowerment.com/a ... ation.html

You are generalising here, you are making out that all dogs are like this when in fact they are not. I am a Reiki Master and all the regulars on here know that if they, their families and animals need help I will send them Reiki, this is one of the best ways of clearing the body so the body can heal.

"You can get some decent dog foods these day, not all are rubbish that damages our dogs."

**Some are better than others, but they are all health-destroying to varying extents. Optimal feeding means no commercial foods. A dog with existing health problems needs to be given the best chance to heal, and that means optimal.

Dogs on commercial foods do get the best chance to heal as long as the owner takes the trouble to find a good commercial food, having used Reiki and dowsing on animal foods I do pick out the good foods from the bad.

"Not always true, a lot depends on how the food is cooked and what is with it. I home cooked for one of my dogs when she was in kidney failure, I did take advice on this and it was a well balanced food that she needed. "

**Some foods are made more digestible by cooking. I’m thinking of starchy vegetables, like yams, for example. Others are harmed and made less digestible. Proteins and certain micronutrients, for example.

Why don't you say about starchy veg then instead of saying all home cooked food, that is very misleading. We have someone on here who is very good with canine nutrition as she has studied it. We get a true picture of foods from her and not generalisation.

"I had a dog that was allergic to raw meat, how would you feed a dog like him? "

**The “allergy” concept is flawed and misused, so I’d have to look at each case individually. It is often assumed that when hypersensitivity to normal stimuli exists, the only answer is to avoid the offending stimuli. Usually, however, there are other ways to resolve the problem once and for all.

Best wishes,
Nora
http://www.NoMoreVetBills.com

This dog had been given drugs before I got him, this left him with brain damage and allergies, if he ate anything he was allergic to it caused seizures. Again through Reiki and dowsing I was able to find out what he was alergic to. Personally as long as I could find what my dog was alergic to I would always avoid it.

[rawnora]

Mattie,

I think you and I have fundamentally different ideologies, and you seem very invested in yours, so I don't think it would be productive to continue. I love explaining the intricacies of the natural hygiene approach to disease but I have a rule that the listener must be receptive and the tone of the discussion must remain civil and respectful.

If you'll read my original comments again, you'll realize that you have misrepresented what I said. I am attempting to share a more natural perspective, one that gives credit to the healing power of the body (and the body alone) and casts a more cautious eye toward potentially harmful medical procedures. If you're not interested, you can disregard it. Others might find it of value, as I did.

Thanks for the discussion.

Best wishes,
Nora
http://www.NoMoreVetBills.com

[Mattie]

Mattie,

I think you and I have fundamentally different ideologies, and you seem very invested in yours, so I don't think it would be productive to continue. I love explaining the intricacies of the natural hygiene approach to disease but I have a rule that the listener must be receptive and the tone of the discussion must remain civil and respectful.

If I was as you say I wouldn't have gone into Reiki. I wasn't the only person who read your posts the way I did, Emmabeth did and several others. We do have to be careful what we advice people to do because we can't see what is happening or know the dog.

If you'll read my original comments again, you'll realize that you have misrepresented what I said. I am attempting to share a more natural perspective, one that gives credit to the healing power of the body (and the body alone) and casts a more cautious eye toward potentially harmful medical procedures. If you're not interested, you can disregard it. Others might find it of value, as I did.

I read your posts several times because I couldn't believe what I was reading, I used to be very interested in other methods went into them quite deeply by someone who had a Masters Degree in homeopathy and other related things to do with animals, but my dogs didn't suit them. I learnt a lot from her including not to give advice that could harm the animal because we don't know them. I am assuming you don't know much about Reiki, it allows the body to heal itself by putting it into a position were it can. It helps the body get rid of toxins, clears the chakras and puts the body, doesn't matter if the body is human or animal, in a position to heal. I have seen some amazing results from Reiki.

It isn't your knowledge that I am having problems with but the way you are putting your methods over, as I said higher up we have to be very careful of information we give because we don't know the owner or the dog, the wrong information can be fatal.

[runlikethewind]

May I make an observation - I think amz86 wanted food advice after she had dealt with the life threatening situation. She said the dog needed (past tense) an operation and has had it and now wants advice on ongoing feeding, we assume, to avoid it not occuring again.

[easilyconfused]

I would feed smaller meals more often for a couple of weeks. There is a small chance of a reoccural within a few weeks of the operation but as long as your vet didn't remove to much intestine then your dog should lead a perfectly normal life tbh

Good quality nutrition will improve your dogs health. Regardless.

[amzh86]

Hi everyone, yes it was mainly advice on feeding after the operation. The operation took place 3 weeks after we had brought him home. I did a silly thing and saw the ad in a local newspaper and assumed my puppy would have been well cared for as it was one of the more expensive advertised. However after bringing him home we realised this wasnt the case. I was not informed which brand food he had been weaned on, which worming medicine was used, never got to see mum and dad closely and was basically handed him and told "look after him please". I later rang as i noticed he had worms (must have been infested little mite,as they were hanging out of his bottom) so rang the vets, who told me to contact the person we got him from who had advertised as 8 weeks old, when i asked for date of birth for the vet and insurance purposes,he was a week younger than she suggested,infact he was 7. and he had been wormed once since birth at 4 weeks but she told me he didnt need doing for another month! I should have maybe done more research on which questions to ask and what to look for (which i have, im due to bring another puppy home in 3 weeks time and have made sure i asked questions like how regulally they need worming etc, i have seen both mum and dad and older brother who have been able to walk around freely not locked away) Needless to say every two weeks i have been worming him and frontlining him every 4 weeks. After the operation i did some research into why this had happened and it is lack of care ie worming that is more likely to cause it. It has been just over 2months since the operation but still having problems with his tummy (this was happening from the day we brought him home) and a food that agrees with him. I have recently changed onto wagg which is a cheap food that seems to be the best i have found although still not perfect, after spending a large amount on the more expensive brands such as purina, wainwrights, and a science plan from the vet which caused him to go from one extreme to the other, and also autarki which is a natural food. But i noticed after id given him it contained beef and vegetables rather than chicken. The vet had sent two samples away to be tested, which came back negative and said it was diet so i now think he may have some kind of sensitivity to chicken. The only problem i have now is the one food ive found to help with his tummy people think is affecting the way he behaves and have recommended i try more expensive foods again as you can imagine after spending the last 3 months being told to change from one expensive brand and try this brand, to have then been left with 3/4 bag of food which is no longer any use and because it has been open cannot be returned and exchanged i have spent a fortune just trying to find one food that works properly so was wanting recommendations, i suppose i could have just asked for extra sensitive tummies but i am not sure whether it is to do with the intusseseption or not. I have spoken to the vet about the condition and in 43 years of her being a vet she has only ever seen one other case

[amzh86]

i was also told the day he went to the vets, he became very poorly very quickly, wouldnt even walk to the children in the morning. Luckily for me i had a feeling i had to get up at half past 5 that morning,rang the emergency vet at 7.30 and took him to the vets at opening time an hour later because he hadnt picked up any and wouldnt even drink anything at this point. If the vets had not have operated my lovely Baxter would have no longer being with us now. From me taking him in at 8.30, they had examined him thoroughly twice, and xrayed him, then phoned to say nothing had showed up they needed my permission to operate,to which i said,anything that is necessary regardless of cost please do it,then thinking hmm how am i going to pay for this and decided to worry about that later on, 2 days on from that the vets manager had rung me and i asked her about the cost side and because i had insurance i was covered,which was very lucky indeed as in total it was £960 for the operation and a 3 night stay plus antibiotics. I never imagined in my wildest dreams anything would happen to him,let alone him be so poorly and was debating whether i needed insurance for him at all, needless to say i am so relieved i did and recommended to my friends they do the same.

[emmabeth]

Ahhhh.. yes, good job you had insurance and good job you whisked him to the vets asap.

Two things I pick up from your post that I want to mention - firstly, the foods you list with the exception of Autarky are VERY low quality foods - whilst I do not believe they will increase his risk of another case of intussusception, they will have an effect on behaviour and health.

Food is such a tricky thing and I get round it by opting out, I feed a raw diet which does my five dogs very well and not ridiculously expensively either (It could be cheaper but I dont have the time to do certain things due to my health).

If i was going to feed a complete dry food to my dogs it would be Orijen, Acana, Taste of the Wild or Applaws. None of these contain grains, so are MUCH more natural for a dog to eat, I also find that even my fussiest dogs will eat them despite normally having raw food (whereas if i offer them some wagg they would rather starve!) so I use these for holidays away when carting raw meat around is not so easy. The other thing is that though they are expensive, you will feedfar far lesso fthem, as the content is much more digestible, so they end up not nearly as expensive as you might think. You can also feed these in conjunction with raw food, so getting the best of both worlds.

With grain based foods (and most of the ones you mention are effectively, meat flavoured cereals) you are paying to create poo. They are a way for the food industry to make money out of ingredientsthey would otherwise discard, and a large proportion of the physical bulk of the food you are putting in will come out the other end as poop.

The other thing I note is that you are getting another puppy - can I beg yo PLEASE please reconsider this. Two puppies together is a NIGHTMARE ....

Please please read through this viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6011

The breeder of the pup you were getting WILL understand - if they do NOT then they are actually NOT a person you should buy a puppy from at all. Seriously, to be honest, a reputable breeder would not sell you a puppy knowing you already have a young puppy at home, so taht rings alarm bells in my head already.

[amzh86]

I read this article when i first joined the positively forums emmabeth, i thoroughly understand the article and why getting another puppy would be easier if i waited another year or 2,however in my case i am a full time housewife so have a heck of alot of time on my hands,and also i have a younger brother (well hes 16,and one of 21) who often take my first puppy for walks and play games with him when i prepare meals etc,so i am quite lucky to have other people to help out with the daily things,other than basic training. They really want a puppy but my parents wont allow them to have a puppy at their house due to the house training etc. So it kind of is going to be my puppy but at the same time not if that makes sense, although i am prepared in the event that they lose interest i am hoping they are mature enough to stick to what they said when i mentioned getting another, (they offered to help out with the second) but just incase they dont i still have time on my hands and will learn how to juggle like i did with my children who i had close together too. The article really made me double think though but i have decided to go ahead with my decision. I know quite a few people who have said they want a puppy but when they are difficult rehome without asking for advice, who told me i should get rid of my first puppy and called me crazy because i have persivered and kept him which frustrates me as they wouldnt do it with a child. I have said from day 1 i will not rehome any dog because of behaviour or training issues,i would much rather as for advice and help and work through it. I hope i am still welcome to ask for advice with two puppies and not be judged like i have on other forums,which i am reluctant to return to because some of their comments have really hurt me. I realise it is going to be difficult and it is going to take ten times more effort with two.