The ladydog and being on heat

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MillieMoo
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by MillieMoo » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:52 am

Suzette wrote:I just came across this thread and want to thank Nettle SO much for writing this. Thanks to all the information I've gleaned during my time on the forum, I know that I'm going to wait until Piper's gone through at least one heat cycle, if not two, before spaying. I have to admit, the thought was daunting to me since I've never had one of my female dogs go through a heat cycle. Now I know just what to expect and how to handle each stage of this process. Again, thank you Nettle, this information is invaluable to me. :D

Piki, I'm so sorry for what your neighbor is putting you through. I understand your not wanted to call animal control - afterall, the dog is just being a dog. It's his owner's responsibility to keep him properly contained at all times. However, my mother had a very similar situation several years ago. In utter frustration after months of her dog being terrorized, she did end up calling animal control on the neighbor's dog (my mom's dog often couldn't even get outside to potty because this dog was always in her yard. Her dog was spayed, so it wasn't a mating issue, just an aggression issue the other dog had with my mother's dog). In the end, the guy had to pay to get his dog back from animal control and that ended the dog's running. After that, the neighbor kept his dog under control a lot better. Sometimes if you can't use reason, hitting them in the wallet will get the job done.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution soon. Poor Evee and poor you. :(
Suzzete, I couldn't have said it better!! :D, I too have only just found this extremely informative thread,....Sooo grateful to find it as I have been doing research about the best time to spay Millie, she is only 5.1/2 mths and hasn't had first season yet, I certainly know when she will be spayed now though....not until after second season, she is a little "naughty pickle" and I certainly dont want her stuck in that mode :lol: ..... and now though I will be searching for best way of spaying, Traditional or Keyhole?....but that is for another thread :wink:

I LOVE this Forum :)

Denise
My Millie, Born 2nd February 2012 ..."wishing to give her the best and happiest life she so deserves"
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minkee
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by minkee » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:58 am

Would it be possible to get this post pinned? :)

gwd
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by gwd » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Nettle wrote:During the false pregnancy, whether obvious or not, and for three months after the season, the b itch's tendons and ligaments will be slacker, and she will lose her muscle tone and gain a little weight.
i hadn't read this thread until it was bumped, and i don't know how many on the site do xrays, but it's worth mentioning that timing of hip evaluation xrays are something you want consider for this very reason.

obviously arthritic changes and changes to the femoral head are not going to change for the better, but joint laxity and sublexation can appear worse (perhaps the difference in clearing OFA or not) when the b*tch is 'loose'.
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ScarletSci
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by ScarletSci » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:58 pm

Firstly, thank you for all the wonderful posts on this forum from experienced dog owners! If I hadn't found this place, my puppy would have been spayed at 6 months as my vet and all the other advice on the internet seems to recommend. Now, I absolutely won't hear of having her spayed until she's at least two. I want her to have the chance to develop to full adulthood first. I also really don't want her to wind up stuck in an uncooperative phase! :wink:

I always thought that at six months, they seem too young to be having such a major operation, but everyone tells you that it's for the best, and until reading this, I'd never heard of the idea that it might stunt their development. Now I have a good argument to respond with when people start telling me to have her neutered.

Anyway, the reason for the post is that already, even though she isn't quite four months old, I'm being pressured to have her neutered. I have a couple of questions that I hope people here will be able to help me with.

Nettle, you mentioned at the beginning of the thread that there have been some big studies done on the physical effects of neutering, but didn't cover them because the board is more for behaviour. I can't find anything online to back me up in not wanting to neuter her until she's older, is there any chance you (or anyone!) could point me in the direction of some research? It'll help to get my parents off my back about having her done!

Forgive me if this sounds incredibly stupid... but... if she's in heat, could this scent transfer to the other dog in the household so that HE is pestered by dogs while out on a walk?

The question will make more sense when I explain. I'm at my parents house because my mom is due for spinal surgery sometime this year. She's going to have a long recovery period, so Pixie (the *****) will likely still be living here with me when she goes into her first season. So we will also be here with my moms neutered male dog, Jack.

Talking with my mom tonight about her spaying, I told her that I'd be waiting until she's at least two. My mom, who's an experienced dog owner, and who often had a multi-dog household, said that she didn't like the idea. Her main objection is that she thinks the scent will transfer to her dog, who'll then be pestered by dogs. She thinks that if six months is good enough for the guide dogs for the blind, then it's good enough for us. She's had entire bitches before, so I didn't feel I could argue with her reasoning... but surely there would be something we could do?

It's also entirely possible that she's just worried that I don't want to spay her because I secretly want her to have puppies! Nothing could be further from the truth! Puppies are cute, but she's a crossbreed, so no reason to breed from her from that point of view, and there are enough unwanted dogs in the world. I also shudder when I think how tough it was to manage with one puppy in the household, the idea of seven or so puppies sounds like more than I could take! (Pixie was one of seven).

But since I adore Jack, she might be saying that it could affect Jack to try to put me off waiting. Any ideas?

bendog
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by bendog » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:18 pm

I don't know about transfer of scent to male dogs (seems unlikely to me) BUT your male dog, although neutered will be very interested in her and can still try to mate. Which obviously you don't want happening so don't leave them alone together and watch them like a hawk when they are together.

Depending on how much of a flirt your girl is, she may well make life a misery for your boy - flagging and flirting and even humping him, my boys soon get very sick of having my b*tches a*se shoved in their face 24/7 when she's in season.

My youngest is coming up to 2 years in a few months and much as I HATE spay operations (I've seen them done), I probably will have her spayed after her next season as its just a nightmare for us all.

ScarletSci
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by ScarletSci » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:24 pm

Oh poor old Jack. So by the time she's grown out of trying to grab onto his ears and tail and all that puppy pestering, she'll then start pestering for something else that he knows nothing about?

I might just have to move out with Pixie sooner than planned, perhaps train Jack as a service dog so that he can help my mum out instead!

bendog
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by bendog » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:32 pm

She may not bother him. My older b*tch keeps herself to herself and would rip the heads off any boys who came near. We barely notice she is in season except for finding blood on the cushions.

The youngster however drips blood everywhere :roll: and flirts like crazy.

But obviously I am going to warn you about worst case scenario (which would be you have to totally separate them whilst she's in season to stop him pestering her or her pestering him) rather than tell you it will all be fine, because there's just no way of telling how it will go.

Every time the youngest is in season (shes had three now and each one no better than the last) I just have to keep repeating to myself "it's only three weeks, it's only three weeks". SO glad when its over! But she might be a particularly annoying b*tch!!!

ScarletSci
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by ScarletSci » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:43 pm

Don't worry, I was only joking! :D For one thing, as gorgeous as Jack is, he would be a terrible service dog :lol:

I'm sure we'll manage, we already have one dog gate set up which we actually set up when Jack was a pup, six years ago, and never took down because it comes in so handy! I can add more gates and keep them separated if she does pester him. If she keeps the same characteristics that she has now, then she will almost certainly pester him! She shadows him as much as she can.

I think I'm talking my mum around to the waiting idea. She wasn't convinced that an early spay would affect her development, so I asked her if If she thought I might be different had I had a hysterectomy before puberty. A bit of a grim comparison, but it made her think! She then talked about the fact that neutering bitches at all is a fairly recent trend, and it wasn't common to neuter pets when she had her multi-dog household thirty or so years ago. Said that perhaps things have moved on even further. Progress! :D

gwd
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by gwd » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:24 pm

ScarletSci wrote:Nettle, you mentioned at the beginning of the thread that there have been some big studies done on the physical effects of neutering, but didn't cover them because the board is more for behaviour. I can't find anything online to back me up in not wanting to neuter her until she's older, is there any chance you (or anyone!) could point me in the direction of some research? It'll help to get my parents off my back about having her done!
not nettle..........but i'm glad you asked (and bumped the thread) as i had neglected to post this article Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers it's research from University of California, Davis it was published last week in PLOS ONE.

there is also the 2002 rottie study.

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
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Nettle
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by Nettle » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:23 am

If you Search for studies by Zinck and also Laura Sanbourne, you'll get some good evidence.

Service dogs aren't neutered for their own health and benefit - they are neutered to fit in with their training schedule and because they aren't allowed to be 'dogs' but have to adhere to a rigid set of training demands. They are an obviously different shape from unneutered dogs.

I would advise keeping the neutered male and the on-heat b itch separate for the 'eager' part of her season.

Other dogs aren't usually so stupid they can't tell a male from an on-heat b itch. But you can never say 'never' :lol:
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gwd
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by gwd » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:20 pm

it occurs to me that this would be a good thread to mention split seasons and silent seasons since we have a few posters with entire girls.

a split season is just what it sounds like. the girl will show color for a few days and then seem to go out of season. typically the boys are only semi interested in her. girl dog will not be really flirty but may stand if she's an easy going kind of gal. ......then 2 to 4 weeks later, you've got another (real this time) season. should this happen, it's good to note that the fertile time is counted from day one of the second round. the split in the season is caused by the estrogen levels not peaking high enough to cause ovulation on the first go around.

then there is a silent season. ......no color at all but usually a slight clear discharge to go along with the swollen vulva. boys will be interested as this is a real season and she can be bred and will conceive.
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Nettle
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by Nettle » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:07 am

Yes, I have one of each. The silent season with the b itch that does that involves one or two days of showing colour, then nothing apart from swollen vulva and normal in-season behaviour. Quite obvious when you know what to look for, but I can see how someone unfamiliar with seasons could miss it.

One of my others will show colour for a day here and there as she works up to a season, then go for a proper season a couple of weeks later. All of mine cycle annually, and for 3 and a half to four weeks, which is a normal variation of 'normal'.

I did read - no refs - that allegedly raw-fed dogs often revert to an annual heat cycle. But my type of dog mostly only cycles annually anyway.
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rachel540
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by rachel540 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:55 pm

Hi! Pepper is exactly 3 months from starting her most recent season (her third) and showed signs of phantom pregnancy just over a week ago, her nipples get enlarged and you can tell she has milk, her lower boobies are swollen (not the technical term i know :) ) but we spot it easily, she gets clingy and whines alot! when we leave the room. We've bought her a soft toy to focus on this time which is helping a little. Her routine never changes and she eats and exercises exactly the same as always. When in season her vulva swells alot and its very obvious. Tonight she started spotting - whats going on? Her vulva isnt swollen at all, is this normal? Because shes so soppy and sensitive we can never tell if anything is wrong, she has the "poor me" puppy look down to a fine art! She was sick friday morning and her poops have been irregular for the last week or so, but other than that i cant think of anything out of the ordinary. Im a worrier so any help is much appreciated!
Pictures of Pepper viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14364

rachel540
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by rachel540 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:00 pm

Just bumping this up - although no signs of further dripping today but still interested in your thoughts and advice :)
Pictures of Pepper viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14364

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Nettle
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Re: The ladydog and being on heat

Post by Nettle » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:12 am

Sorry didn't see this yesterday so have answered on your other post. Should be okay but keep a cautious eye on things.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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