Prong collars and E-collars

[pat]

I once read on a forum that prong collars were harmless as the prongs looked like paper clips. I blew up a photo of the collar in question and posted it on the forum to show that these things are not harmless at all. They can and will hurt a dog and they have no place in training. I'm hoping that eventually the sale of these and of shock collars will be banned world wide. It's what we should be aiming for.

[Josie]

I suppose it's true that prong collars do less damage than choke chains, but then punching generally does less damage than kicking, but I bet you wouldn't want me to punch you!

E-collars may have a setting to vibrate for deaf dogs, but there are collars made especially for that purpose. I would buy that (well I wouldn't use it on a deaf dog to be honest) rather than line the pockets of someone who makes collars designed to shock dogs!

There is NO NEED for them. Anything they can achieve can be achieved through reward based training, even if it sometimes takes longer. Just because things can be quicker, doesnt' mean it's a good thing.

You can get your dinner hotter quicker by turning the oven up to full, but you'll pay for it later because it wont be done properly and will make you ill. When you use any kind of pain or fear to train, you make more problems. It could be one you wont notice care about (dog doesn't trust you as much) or it could be one you will (dog works out that biting can stop the punishments)

[pat]

I've just found out that anti-bark collars are now incorporating electric shocks. In the information I was looking at it said that the collar gave a correction when the dog barked and it wasn't even clear to the purchaser that this would be an electric shock delivered straight to their beloved pet. I wonder if a complaint can be made to Advertising Standards?

[Fred]

After reading some of the dribble on this thread I wonder where some of you got your Degrees in dog training?

Some of the comments about CHECK CHAINS are just plain STUPID! Use one CORRECTLY and it is a great training tool and anyone that can’t be bothered to LEARN to use one properly before it is put on a living dog should NEVER EVER be allowed to own a dog. I have ALWAYS demonstrated the right way to put one on by using the handlers wrist and they soon learn right way from wrong way!

Pronged Collars: I can’t comment on as I have never had the need to use one.

The emotive Garbage about Remote Training Systems is just that!
I have a rescued GSD ( Not the first one I have ever owned or trained as I have had GSD’s for over 40 years) and believe me he had issues! He was Dumped at the local Pound by his owners (age about 9 months) and a BIG BOY for his age, when I rescued him he had 2 days to live! I don’t think he had ever been on a lead in his life it took me 2 weeks to have him heel happily ( with the use of a CHECK CHAIN) so I could take him out on walks with my other dog.

Now we had to address his other issues ( caused by his previous owners having him shut up in the back yard with nothing to do all day) Issue (1)
He played chase the birds out of the yard while BARKING at the top of his lungs ( Not appreciated by the other folks in our street). The only way I could stop him was to SIT on the back steps with him on a long lead and a leather collar and wait for this to happen! So the moment I felt him fire UP I tossed a tennis ball AT him and had him bring it back for a game.. After a week of this he was more interested in the ball game than the birds, problem ONE solved So Far??
Now problem (2) and one of the hardest to solve! He loves to chase Trucks along our side fence BARKING at fever pitch. I tried siting out-side the fence for hours (we live on a corner block) with him on a lead waiting for Trucks to come past as one approached his ears would prick and he would have a long look but would not fire up or BARK so how was I going to correct this behavior? So tried spending the days in the yard with him and he never ever barked while I had him on a lead waiting for him to display the behavior BUT once he was off lead and a truck dared to sound as if it was going to come into HIS YARD that was it off he went, it got so bad he was hurting himself hitting the Color Bond Fence! Still unsolved as of a week ago??? There was one other MAJOR problem “Lightningâ€

[Mattie]

After reading some of the dribble on this thread I wonder where some of you got your Degrees in dog training?

Welcome to the board Fred, I think you will find that we can discuss things without insulting each other

Some of the comments about CHECK CHAINS are just plain STUPID! Use one CORRECTLY and it is a great training tool and anyone that can’t be bothered to LEARN to use one properly before it is put on a living dog should NEVER EVER be allowed to own a dog. I have ALWAYS demonstrated the right way to put one on by using the handlers wrist and they soon learn right way from wrong way!

Oh dear! how do you know that we don't know how to use them? I know I do and still don't like them, they are unnecessary and can do a lot of harm to a dog even when used correctly. They are too easy to buy over the counter and people put them on dogs without knowing how to use them, that can be fatal to a dog.

The emotive Garbage about Remote Training Systems is just that!

Dear dear, I would say your post is very emotive. No, most of the writing about these are not garbage, I have seen one used and wouldn't even put one on my evil SIL.

I have a rescued GSD ( Not the first one I have ever owned or trained as I have had GSD’s for over 40 years) and believe me he had issues! He was Dumped at the local Pound by his owners (age about 9 months) and a BIG BOY for his age, when I rescued him he had 2 days to live! I don’t think he had ever been on a lead in his life it took me 2 weeks to have him heel happily ( with the use of a CHECK CHAIN) so I could take him out on walks with my other dog.

If you read other posts you will see just what good results that many have had on here without using gadgets like choke chains.

Now we had to address his other issues ( caused by his previous owners having him shut up in the back yard with nothing to do all day) Issue (1)
He played chase the birds out of the yard while BARKING at the top of his lungs ( Not appreciated by the other folks in our street). The only way I could stop him was to SIT on the back steps with him on a long lead and a leather collar and wait for this to happen! So the moment I felt him fire UP I tossed a tennis ball AT him and had him bring it back for a game.. After a week of this he was more interested in the ball game than the birds, problem ONE solved So Far??

Sounds like something that we would do with our dogs but chasing birds and barking is normal dog behaviour, it is our life styles that say it isn't acceptable so like you we have to find ways of stopping it in a positive way.

Now problem (2) and one of the hardest to solve! He loves to chase Trucks along our side fence BARKING at fever pitch. I tried siting out-side the fence for hours (we live on a corner block) with him on a lead waiting for Trucks to come past as one approached his ears would prick and he would have a long look but would not fire up or BARK so how was I going to correct this behavior? So tried spending the days in the yard with him and he never ever barked while I had him on a lead waiting for him to display the behavior BUT once he was off lead and a truck dared to sound as if it was going to come into HIS YARD that was it off he went, it got so bad he was hurting himself hitting the Color Bond Fence! Still unsolved as of a week ago???

I did read somewhere that an owner put up black plastic along her fence so her dog couldn't see the vehicles going past, the dog stopped racing up and down the fence barking.

There was one other MAJOR problem “Lightningâ€

[Bilclarie]

well I for one have never used nore would use an E collar but have used both a check chain and a pintch collar which is there proper name, a check chain used badly can cause your dog neck injury and if not put on the right way will just continue to choke your dog for as long as it pulls you and pintch its neck in one place all the time it's pulling you, a pintch collar does just that it doesn't choke the dog nore can you put it on upside down, and worn properly by the dog teaches it not to pull in no time at all and unlike with a check chain your not checking it constantly, as the dog pulls the collar pintches and the dog stops pulling I know what one I think is kinder and less damaging to the dogs neck.

[pat]

We had a cocker spaniel with glaucoma. The first thing the vet asked was, "Have you ever used a choke chain on this dog?" I'm very glad I was able to say "no" as apparently the use of a choke chain can cause the condition.

[Horace's Mum]

E-collars may have a setting to vibrate for deaf dogs, but there are collars made especially for that purpose. I would buy that (well I wouldn't use it on a deaf dog to be honest) rather than line the pockets of someone who makes collars designed to shock dogs!

Can you just clarify what you mean - would you not use an e-collar on a deaf dog or not use a vibrator for a deaf dog? Just curious, I have a deaf dog and am looking into different vibration collars (I will not buy one with a shock in case it accidentally gets pressed) but if you would not use a vinrator at all, why not? It may offer me the only chance of letting my dog truly off lead. Have you any experience of deaf dogs or vibration collars?

[Mattie]

I have a friend who has several deaf dogs and does agility with them, she doesn't use any sort of collar on her dogs apart from an ordinary flat collar. I will contact her and ask her to come on.

[pat]

When you do agility a lot of dogs tend to watch the body language of the handler rather than listening to what they're saying. This is definitely the case with my dogs. They learned long ago that it was best not to listen to the silly old woman wobbling along behind. I can't tell left from right at times when it's crucial but I do look at the next obstacle and try to get my shoulders pointing in the right direction. I didn't realise how good a dog's peripheral vision was until I started agility.

[Ry]

Ah, as an American, I wouldn't know much about the use of such collars over in the U.K. I for one don't condone them. My aunt used the e-collars, and to me, that's more like training your dog to be submissive than obedient. I would also like to add, you only used two examples of Americans, ha ha. The show has only recently hit the U.S., and I would imagine such training methods by Victoria aren't as known here, nor are the idelas shared. Lets just hope that changes soon. I believe it is changing, although it's a shame people used them in the first place. I've never even seen the use of prong collars. Maybe that's a good thing. So basically, the only explanation I might have, is lack of information. I do find that original post somewhat offensive, I'm not going to lie. Most of my family has a positive view on training and support various organizations fighting for the well being of dogs and other animals. I just think that's a bad generalization. In reality, most people care for their animals, I would imagione it's not so different.

[emmabeth]

I dont think Ocelots original post was offensive to americans, she asked a question regarding the attitudes towards dog training over there, as compared to here (uk).

In the UK much of the US training stuff we see, unfortunately does rely on shock collars, prong collars, aversive methods and dominance theory methods - ie none of it good.

It is rare to see in the UK, an american tv program, that does not feature one or indeed all of these methods, and it is also rare to see a program that DOES feature clickers, positive reward methods etc.

That may well NOT reflect how the majority of the US trains their dogs and Im sure all the regular UK posters on here are aware of that, hence Ocelot asking that question.

I do think though that US or UK, people seem to be more interested in seeing aversive methods used (ie the many clips of Mic Martin dashing a cup of water into a dogs face, the many clips of Rob Alleyne advising owners to rattle bottles as a correction for misbehaviour - thats just on the one show as well!, three trainers who ALL use aversive, punishment based training), Im not sure why, because I think positive training is far far more impressive.

We seem to lap up the results of positive training, look at how well recieved Katie and Gin were on Britains Got Talent, and how avidly people, even non dog people watch Mary Ray and Richard Curtis doing their heelwork to music routines - all trained using positive reward training..

But when we want to see people training their dogs, certainly our media bigwigs seem to think we want to see aversive, punishment based stuff.

I do not know why that is, but sad to say I would reckon the majority of uk dog owners would turn to punishment methods before reward methods, even now.

[Mattie]

I suspect it goes back to how they were brought up Em, at one time it was fine to punish your children, if you were lucky you just got a slap but others were beaten, punched kicked, a belt, slipper or something else used. When you are bought up like this it is a normal way to teach others.

Then there is the "I must be boss" mentality, often because dad or mum always had to be boss and if you didn't obey them you were punished. Sometimes people think it is macho to behave like this as well which doesn't help.

When there was national service, the men were bullied all the time, it became normal to them and they started to treat others in the same way.

Thankfully things are changing although it is still there and it may never completely go because man is agressive.

[Ry]

I apologize, I suppose I just got defensive over the statement. In all honesty, I don't know a whole lot about what you guys see over in the UK. If you see shows from the U.S. broadcasting those sorts of methods, I guess it's only natural to question things. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have cause by stating my view.

[Lis & Addy]

As big a fan as I am of Victoria Stilwell's, she's not the first trainer to use positive training methods i the U.S. Or the fifth, or the tenth, or the thousandth. You might want to google the names Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson. I mean, just for starters. You might get a shock--with Karen Pryor, in particular.

I took Addy to Petsmart for basic obedience training, and went back for intermediate and advanced, and hope to work it out so that we can take the trick training class, too. Petsmart is not esoteric, hidden, unknown-to-the-masses training. Petsmart is a major, nationwide pet supply chain store. It's about as exclusive and elevated as McDonald's. Petco, another big, national pet supply chain, also offers dog training. If you have just gotten a dog, and know you need training, but don't have any idea where to start, it's a good bet you're going to wind up at Petsmart or Petco.

And the point of all this? They use exclusively positive, reward-based training. No, the names I mentioned don't have national tv shows. They have books, in some cases best-selliing books, they have huge numbers of students who have become trainers and trained their own students who are now training, they get guest spots on national talk shows that have followings beyond anything the cable networks that carry both Cesar Millan and Victoria Stilwell can offer.

Good Dog U. (another cable tv show) emphasizes positive training, also, though I can't at this hour recall the names of either of the two different trainers who have been featured on it.

The U.K. imports from the U.S. shows that present and reinforce a particular image of the U.S., and of Americans. Shows that would challenge that image, don't get imported, presumably because the tv execs think no one would be interested in watching.

Lis