Extending leash

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Sarah83
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Sarah83 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 pm

With 3 dogs on extending leads, how do I hold the phone?
You use one of those hands free headsets that makes it look as though you're talking to yourself :mrgreen: Course most people using those hold the phone in their hand anyway making the whole hands free thing rather pointless :?

Hadn't thought of using a whistle to be honest. I have thought about using a cap gun as it's a sound I know Rupert won't react badly to but knowing my luck I'd get arrested for supposedly trying to shoot someones dog.

The time Rupert grabbed a cat it more than boxed his ears but no way he was letting go. Prising open a determined dogs jaws while an angry/frightened cat attacks you from within the determined dogs jaws is exceedingly painful.

It's not so much the flexi leashes I have an issue with, it's the people who use them with absolutely no consideration for anyone or anything else. I've been wrapped up in them, seen a dog chased down a busy road by the handle of one when its owner dropped it, had my dog injured by one that got wrapped around his leg and just generally seen far too many people have absolutely no control over what their dog is doing or where it's going on one. In a crowded (or even not so crowded) place a flexi leash in the hands of one of these people is an absolute menace. Used properly I'm sure they're fine but I've yet to meet anyone in real life who uses them responsibly. They just stick the dog on it and forget about it, it can't run off after all so why do they need to watch what it's doing?

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GundogGuy
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Re: Extending leash

Post by GundogGuy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Mattie wrote:
I know a very large GSD who is very, very attached to his owner. She was recommended by a very well known, qualified and experienced behaviourist/trainer to use one to help lessen the dogs reliance on the owner...
Did this trainer say why it would lessen the reliance on the owner?
She didn't say but, from a gundog point of view, free running or allowing your dog to run around 'willy nilly' being continuously rewarded by the environment (remember working gundogs have a strong prey drive) rather than the owner/handler greatly reduces the focus the dog gives the owner. From a spaniel point of view, the free running causes them to pull out from the handler and work too far out to be any use for flushing game in a shooting or trialling scenario. Ideally a spaniel will work within 15-20 feet either side of the handler and constantly check their proximity.
In my experience, you can see the dogs who are allowed free running (or too much free running) because their owner/handlers are continuously shouting or whistling them back in... or worse... making a mess of everyone's shooting with an unruly dog :lol:

So, my theory is that using these retractable/extending leashes incorrectly will mimic the 'free running' scenario and perhaps (depending on the dog and the dog/owner relationship) help to reduce any infatuation there may be by making the environment more rewarding than sticking like glue to the owner.

As an example of this... I have at the moment a JRT in my puppy socialisation class. He must be around 16 weeks now (I'd have to look at my book for his exact age). The first week he came he sat behind his owners legs while all the dogs were off leash. He came out as soon as the other dogs were put on leash (as they usually do)...
Week two he was a lot more sociable and playful with the other dogs (especially another wee JRT who's a bit 'barky').
Week three and he's very playful and sociable but pays absolutely no attention to his owners when it comes to the 'training interruptions to play'...
I passed the female owner yesterday when I was in my car and hey presto... extending leash extended to the max and the wee JRT running hither and tither... and this is after my 'those extending leashes should be banned because...' speech :D . No heel work to speak of (and they were on the footpath/sidewalk next to a pretty busy road)...

Guess what my 5 minute lecture is going to be next Tuesday :lol:
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Mattie
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Mattie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:00 pm

GundogGuy wrote:
Mattie wrote:
I know a very large GSD who is very, very attached to his owner. She was recommended by a very well known, qualified and experienced behaviourist/trainer to use one to help lessen the dogs reliance on the owner...
Did this trainer say why it would lessen the reliance on the owner?
She didn't say but, from a gundog point of view, free running or allowing your dog to run around 'willy nilly' being continuously rewarded by the environment (remember working gundogs have a strong prey drive) rather than the owner/handler greatly reduces the focus the dog gives the owner. From a spaniel point of view, the free running causes them to pull out from the handler and work too far out to be any use for flushing game in a shooting or trialling scenario. Ideally a spaniel will work within 15-20 feet either side of the handler and constantly check their proximity.
In my experience, you can see the dogs who are allowed free running (or too much free running) because their owner/handlers are continuously shouting or whistling them back in... or worse... making a mess of everyone's shooting with an unruly dog :lol:

So, my theory is that using these retractable/extending leashes incorrectly will mimic the 'free running' scenario and perhaps (depending on the dog and the dog/owner relationship) help to reduce any infatuation there may be by making the environment more rewarding than sticking like glue to the owner.
I know a lady who's husband is a gamekeeper, she does the training of the dogs, each dog has it's own job to do and she never uses an extending lead on any of them, she has several spaniels. They all have good recall and all do their job properly so I find that idea a bit puzzling.
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GundogGuy
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Re: Extending leash

Post by GundogGuy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:08 pm

i'm not saying gundog folk use these leashes... I was likening their use to the free running...

Gamekeepers dogs are usually the most unruly on any shoot :lol:
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Re: Extending leash

Post by ladybug1802 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:24 pm

Sarah83 wrote: It's not so much the flexi leashes I have an issue with, it's the people who use them with absolutely no consideration for anyone or anything else. I've been wrapped up in them, seen a dog chased down a busy road by the handle of one when its owner dropped it, had my dog injured by one that got wrapped around his leg and just generally seen far too many people have absolutely no control over what their dog is doing or where it's going on one. In a crowded (or even not so crowded) place a flexi leash in the hands of one of these people is an absolute menace. Used properly I'm sure they're fine but I've yet to meet anyone in real life who uses them responsibly. They just stick the dog on it and forget about it, it can't run off after all so why do they need to watch what it's doing?
Ah yes indeed! I have a friend who fits into this category and it does my head in so much that I have only walked my dog with her and her dog twice in the 15 months I have had Dylan! It is in fact her hubby that is worst, but they are both as bad.....they have a very large lurcher cross type dog, who they have done very little training, if any with, and he rarely goes off lead because he runs off after everything! But they just let him wander aimlessly around on the extendable lead, going round in circles around them and anyone who is with them. Last time I walked with them (about 6 months ago!) I spent the entire time in Windsor Park |(where they live) trying to get out of the way and stop my poor Dylan being strangled by the lead! Now on a separate note, I too have Dylan on his extendable lead, because in the park there were deer so dogs werent allowed off lead (I had taken him for a walk previosly as well!) and I had no issues with my lead getting caught up on people or dogs, called him nearer me if it looked like it might get tangled up and spent a lot of time making comments about their dog and the lead and I hoped they would notice...but they didnt! Needless to say I dont walk with them now!

Oh plus I dont agree with the wayher hubby does thing......as an example, when they first got their dog as a rescue (amazingly they have had no issues with him at all, but it is purely down to luck!) they had made plans to go out the second night he was there. I would have cancelled but thy left him for 5 hours!!! He had made a mess in the house so friend;s husband did the old 'push the dog's nose in the mess' trick......I tried to explain that the dog wont know why he did this blah blah blah but he sticks to his guns that he knows best. Another reason why i dont want my dog near him!!

Sorry - went off track!!

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Mattie
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Mattie » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:44 am

GundogGuy wrote:i'm not saying gundog folk use these leashes... I was likening their use to the free running...
I know this isn't you doing this GundogGuy, but extending leads have tension on all the time to a dog, it is why Merlin was happy to investigate the undergrowth, the tension on the extending lead showed I was still at the other end which a normal lead or training lead doesn't. With tension on the lead all the time the dog knows he is not running free and is why I always teach recall with a training lead not an extending lead.
Gamekeepers dogs are usually the most unruly on any shoot :lol:
Not my friend's dogs, she does a really good job of training the dogs and is part of the reason why he was offered a job were he works now because of how well trained the dogs are. When they are past working they come into the house as family pets.
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Chance1214 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 am

"Some people shouldn't have dogs or any other animal, not even children, but that is another subject"
gosh i have been saying that for years mattie!! its pathetic... but as you said besides the point!!
anyways i agree with what you all have been saying, my dog is now about 15 months, gorgeous male wheaten the runt so is only about 32lbs named of course chance :) but i considered the extending when we went to the beach and dog parks for some more leniency -- they just brake so easily! and as i read about them the injury is scary... i think tho someone like mattie or th eperson i use from a dog service wonderful guy, to walk and watch my dog if i cant be home for the dog... im a student and work from home... he uses one (not with chance does better wih a shorter leash needs a bit more security in my busy neighborhood i dont know if you all know about the wheatin' greetin' ?? :D ) but if you know how to use one properly it is ok but i recommend these rope leashes they can be up to 15 or more feet long and are ideal for a dog park or the beach for chance it is great becase i can grab him easily at the beach if he gets very distracted by another dog, usually the big dogs he loves! his best friend is a big mastiff!!..( he saw a great dane last summer for the first time and was practically in awe!! haha held his own when they played too!!) but there great and dont have the traction and whip back and as you all said the bulkiness to the retractible leashes....

i did use one for a very short while in nantucket on the beach tho it got a drop of sand in it and poof gone!!

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Re: Extending leash

Post by DawnStorm » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:45 am

Mattie wrote:I used to take 3 dogs out all with extending leads on, I was able to do this because I taught my dogs how to behave when they have them on. There are places like walking along busy roads that I won't use them, that is dangerous, you may think you have the lock on but they can slip, that is if the owner bothers to put the lock on to stop the dog running into the road.
.
This^. I think it's also important for the walker to reel the dog in when needed. I modified my retractable so I can walk both of my dogs on it.
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Mattie
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Mattie » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:23 am

What do you mean by "Realt the dog in"?

My dogs have good recall, when I call them they come running back, an extending lead keeps the tension up and automatically reels itself back.

I have never found the need to adapt these leads to walk 3 dogs.
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Fundog » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:40 pm

Mattie, sometimes, with an unruly wild hooligan dog, who is slow to grasp a reliable recall on a long line, sometimes it becomes necessary to start coiling the rope up, to bring the dog in in a hurry, when she is ignoring your recall-- say you are out in an open field practicing, and another party shows up with their own wild hooligans off-lead. You call your dog, but that turns out to be the one time out of ten that he ignores you. Desperate to get him back in before something awful happens, you start gathering up the long line so you can get hold of your dog without chasing him, which of course, would only make a game out of it.


Since we're on the subject: (Gundog Guy, I'm definitely looking for your input on this, as well as Mattie's and everyone else's) :wink: As everyone knows, I'm still working on recall with Dottie. She's 100% in the house and in the garden, but anywhere else, she's a wild hooligan. :lol: So I've been doing long-line training with her at the ball field, and that's going pretty well. Not as well as I'd like, but she is improving. :) So anyway.... yesterday, I took the girls out to the park for some recall training. I took a fetch toy for Annie, who can be off-lead, and had Dottie on a long-line, tied around my waist, (so I had my hands free). I also had a bag of treats in my waist pack, and my whistle. Something awesome and totally unexpected happened-- two things, actually: 1) I finally got the "drop it" command ingrained into Annie's head, so she was retrieving to hand, rather than trying to play tug. Woo-hoo! 2) While Dottie was running around, seemingly oblivious, she was actually keeping an eye on me, so every time Annie got a treat for releasing her toy to me, Dottie came galloping over and parked herself in a beautiful, tail wagging sit in front of me. I didn't even have to blow the whistle or call her-- she just kept checking in every time Annie did a retrieval! :shock:

Then... just as we were starting to get tired, and I was nearly frozen, some birds flew over head and Dottie of course, being a Llewellin Setter, was mesmerized. I had a dickens of a time trying to get her back, since she did not respond to the whistle, so I had to start coiling the rope in so I could get her back and we could leave. Ideally, I realize that we needed to have left just a bit sooner-- and I was intending to-- it just so happens that wild migrating birds do not register their schedules with the American Flight Administration. :?

All in all, it was a really fun session, and I'm really pleased with the girls' performance-- especially the way Dottie was paying attention to where I was and what I was doing, even though she looked oblivious, running around like she was. This is significant, since being bred in the U.S., and I suspect for American Field Trials and hunting from ATV or horseback, Dottie is a big runner. She is not bred to stay close the way Annie (a flusher) is. So trying to teach her to stay in close proximity, rather than running into the next county has been a huge challenge.

So I guess what I want to know is... does this sound like we're on the right track? What should I be doing to ensure better results?
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Re: Extending leash

Post by GundogGuy » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:21 pm

Fundog wrote:
While Dottie was running around, seemingly oblivious, she was actually keeping an eye on me, so every time Annie got a treat for releasing her toy to me, Dottie came galloping over and parked herself in a beautiful, tail wagging sit in front of me. I didn't even have to blow the whistle or call her-- she just kept checking in every time Annie did a retrieval! :shock:
Bingo... Jealousy is a great tool for the multi dog household :D
Fundog wrote: Then... just as we were starting to get tired, and I was nearly frozen, some birds flew over head and Dottie of course, being a Llewellin Setter, was mesmerized. I had a dickens of a time trying to get her back, since she did not respond to the whistle, so I had to start coiling the rope in so I could get her back and we could leave. Ideally, I realize that we needed to have left just a bit sooner-- and I was intending to-- it just so happens that wild migrating birds do not register their schedules with the American Flight Administration. :?
When she goes deaf and 'mesmerized' what do you do? If it's whistle dixie on that blower and get hoarse calling then stop...

Try hiding, walking away (as long as it's safe to do so) and if she comes to you let loose with the biggest, bestest praise/rewards you have... then... let her go away again! and repeat now and then. That way, she'll learn that if she doesn't keep an eye on you she has not chance of all them nice things...

When you say she's 'mesmerized', is she standing still or chasing? if she's standing still, quietly walk up to her, put her leash on and walk away and praise her when she turns to come with you...

edited to add: My big fella is a pointing breed and sometimes I have to touch him to get him to snap out of his 'trance'... gently but firmly just at the base of the rib cage... I just tickle him there and he turns to look at me...
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Re: Extending leash

Post by Fundog » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:44 pm

GundogGuy wrote:
Fundog wrote:
While Dottie was running around, seemingly oblivious, she was actually keeping an eye on me, so every time Annie got a treat for releasing her toy to me, Dottie came galloping over and parked herself in a beautiful, tail wagging sit in front of me. I didn't even have to blow the whistle or call her-- she just kept checking in every time Annie did a retrieval! :shock:
Bingo... Jealousy is a great tool for the multi dog household :D
Fundog wrote: Then... just as we were starting to get tired, and I was nearly frozen, some birds flew over head and Dottie of course, being a Llewellin Setter, was mesmerized. I had a dickens of a time trying to get her back, since she did not respond to the whistle, so I had to start coiling the rope in so I could get her back and we could leave. Ideally, I realize that we needed to have left just a bit sooner-- and I was intending to-- it just so happens that wild migrating birds do not register their schedules with the American Flight Administration. :?
When she goes deaf and 'mesmerized' what do you do? If it's whistle dixie on that blower and get hoarse calling then stop...

Try hiding, walking away (as long as it's safe to do so) and if she comes to you let loose with the biggest, bestest praise/rewards you have... then... let her go away again! and repeat now and then. That way, she'll learn that if she doesn't keep an eye on you she has not chance of all them nice things...

When you say she's 'mesmerized', is she standing still or chasing? if she's standing still, quietly walk up to her, put her leash on and walk away and praise her when she turns to come with you...

edited to add: My big fella is a pointing breed and sometimes I have to touch him to get him to snap out of his 'trance'... gently but firmly just at the base of the rib cage... I just tickle him there and he turns to look at me...

When the birds flew over head, Dottie went on point, but since the birds were in the air flying and calling, she starting doing a little dance, sort of leaping to and fro.... I waited to blow on the whistle until she seemed to have a break in her concentration, but then the birds began calling again, so after glancing at me and starting toward me, she turned back to the birds again. I again waited until birds were gone and she had started running for fun again, but by then I think her trainability for the day had simply expired, because she continued to ignore me.... I was freezing, and my knees were getting stiff, which increased the odds of my getting hurt. And Annie was bored already. So I just reeled Dottie in and we headed back to the car.

To be honest, I had thought about simply walking back to the car while Dottie was still on the long line. I think she might have followed, but there was a low retaining wall between the lawn and the parking lot, and I could see myself getting pitched over if the line got snagged on the wall, and/or my knees failed to bend properly. So to prevent my own self getting injured, I did things the way I did.

I like the idea of just walking up to her and putting the lead on her, or giving her a light tap. :idea: I'll see if it works, or whether she takes off running again just as I get close...
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Mattie » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:17 am

Fundog wrote:Mattie, sometimes, with an unruly wild hooligan dog, who is slow to grasp a reliable recall on a long line, sometimes it becomes necessary to start coiling the rope up, to bring the dog in in a hurry, when she is ignoring your recall-- say you are out in an open field practicing, and another party shows up with their own wild hooligans off-lead. You call your dog, but that turns out to be the one time out of ten that he ignores you. Desperate to get him back in before something awful happens, you start gathering up the long line so you can get hold of your dog without chasing him, which of course, would only make a game out of it.
With an extending lead the lead reals back into the handle on its own unless the lock is on, I only use extending leads when I want to give them more freedom but can't let them off lead. With a long line I use it when I an let them off lead because extending leads always has tension on them, long lines don't have tension on unless your dog is at the end of the line and is starting to pull when you still have hold of the other end.

Since we're on the subject: (Gundog Guy, I'm definitely looking for your input on this, as well as Mattie's and everyone else's) :wink: As everyone knows, I'm still working on recall with Dottie. She's 100% in the house and in the garden, but anywhere else, she's a wild hooligan. :lol: So I've been doing long-line training with her at the ball field, and that's going pretty well. Not as well as I'd like, but she is improving. :) So anyway.... yesterday, I took the girls out to the park for some recall training. I took a fetch toy for Annie, who can be off-lead, and had Dottie on a long-line, tied around my waist, (so I had my hands free). I also had a bag of treats in my waist pack, and my whistle.
How high a reward are the treats to Dottie? They have to be really high rewards to her to encourage her to come back to you. Is there anything else that she prefers as a reward?

Something awesome and totally unexpected happened-- two things, actually: 1) I finally got the "drop it" command ingrained into Annie's head, so she was retrieving to hand, rather than trying to play tug. Woo-hoo!
Well done, :D
2) While Dottie was running around, seemingly oblivious, she was actually keeping an eye on me, so every time Annie got a treat for releasing her toy to me, Dottie came galloping over and parked herself in a beautiful, tail wagging sit in front of me. I didn't even have to blow the whistle or call her-- she just kept checking in every time Annie did a retrieval! :shock:
I am now getting this from Cyril, he keeps running back, I still reward him for this because I want him to have fun but not going too far from me. I want him to get into the habit of coming back to me.
Then... just as we were starting to get tired, and I was nearly frozen, some birds flew over head and Dottie of course, being a Llewellin Setter, was mesmerized. I had a dickens of a time trying to get her back, since she did not respond to the whistle, so I had to start coiling the rope in so I could get her back and we could leave. Ideally, I realize that we needed to have left just a bit sooner-- and I was intending to-- it just so happens that wild migrating birds do not register their schedules with the American Flight Administration. :?
As you had Dottie on the other end of the long line and had hold of the other end, it was tied round your waist, she wasn't going to be able to run away so you still had control of her. By whistling and calling her you are teaching her it is ok to ignore you when something very interesting like birds are there. What I do is wait, and wait, and wait, for as long as it takes for my dog to take the focus off the birds. This often seems like hours but is usually only minutes. When my dog takes the focus off the birds I still wait until my dog is looking towards me or starts to come back, only then do I give the command to return to me.

It will be 8 weeks next Sunday when Cyril arrived, he is already doing well with his recall and now is recalling with some distractions. It isn't easy to stand and wait until his focus is off something but I know if I don't he will never learn to recall.
All in all, it was a really fun session, and I'm really pleased with the girls' performance-- especially the way Dottie was paying attention to where I was and what I was doing, even though she looked oblivious, running around like she was. This is significant, since being bred in the U.S., and I suspect for American Field Trials and hunting from ATV or horseback, Dottie is a big runner. She is not bred to stay close the way Annie (a flusher) is. So trying to teach her to stay in close proximity, rather than running into the next county has been a huge challenge.

So I guess what I want to know is... does this sound like we're on the right track? What should I be doing to ensure better results?
Apart from continuing to whistle her when her focus is on something else so her brain isn't taking in what you are doing, she isn't deliberately ignoring you but that will come eventually, you are doing well. It is very frustrating when they are focused on something else but that focus doesn't last long, it just seems to. :lol:

What is important is your body language, if you get frustrated it will show up in your body language so stay relaxed and calm and smile, smile smile, that will help keep your body language soft.
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Nettle
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Re: Extending leash

Post by Nettle » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:27 am

Sounds to me that you are doing awesomely well :D and Rome wasn't built in a day....


You do what you feel best with, but I AM concerned about having a dog tied to your waist. I don't like the stress on your spine or the prospect of you going overland ski-ing if your dog takes off after something. You know what's best for you, but broadly I would advise extreme caution for anyone else thinking of going that way, and I'd never do it myself (once a physio - always a physio :wink: )
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Re: Extending leash

Post by GundogGuy » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:20 pm

ahhhh.... so she's on point... brilliant...

so...

You can train her to 'flush' on command... that'll break the 'point' for you but you need something to flush, right?

well, look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s12T_nMZyU

I'm not training the point here but the dog offered it. He offered it because this was the second time doing the exercise and he knew the pheasant was there... But, if I was training his point I'd have calmly walked over to him as he went on point and quietly and slowly said something like "steady, steady, steady" then when I got to him I'd gently stroke his spine from tail to head, against his hair... just enough to ruffle his hair a bit. This gives them real spine tingles and you can really see him stiffen to the point... The next step would be to add "flush".... using this apparatus I'd give a cue like "get in" and pull the string that released the elastic and maybe even run forwards a step or two to energise the dog into moving... then of course, the 'sit' would be required...
The equipment I'm using in the video is actually a "bolting bunny" setup that I modified to use with a dead pheasant... You can get this equipment from gundog suppliers. I'm not sure about the US but in the UK you can get them here...http://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/816/category/27


When using it as a bolting bunny, in order to get the sit you need someone to be at the other end of the elastic to pick up the dummy if the dog chases it... That way he gets no reward for chasing and it can be extinguished and replaced with a 'sit' that gets rewarded...

Hope that makes sense...

edited to add: In the park, once trained, you can throw a ball for the dog to 'flush'...
Last edited by GundogGuy on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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