Halti question

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DaisyMaisy
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Halti question

Post by DaisyMaisy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:48 pm

I bought one for my boxer, we adopted her recently and she pulls like no other. Her foster used a prong collar on her, but I don't like those so I went for the Halti. It's actually working amazingly...my hands no longer ache after walking her!

I do have a few questions:

1. Should we always use the Halti when walking her, or can we eventually just use the harness?

2. Is it ok to train loose-leash walking (I read a post about it on here) with this type of collar?

She's still getting 100% used to it. When we first put it on, even after slowly introducing it...she hated it and would whip her head back and forth. But she doesn't do that much if at all anymore. Sometimes she does when we meet another dog, and then the owner gets scared and think she's 'agressive' when in reality she just wants that thing out of her way when meeting a new friend. Plus, I think some people think it's a muzzle..

MPbandmom
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Re: Halti question

Post by MPbandmom » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:45 pm

I used halti's for a while. People always thought the dogs were muzzled.

It is best to combine the halti on one lead with the harness on a second lead, (or double end lead) using the halti as a back up safety net while teaching the loose leash walking. I found with my strong puller that using a double end leash on a harness and her regular flat buckle collar provided sufficient control that the halti was not needed. My dog quickly figured out how to still pull and jerk with the halti on (perhaps even worse than without the halti) and it is amazing that she didn't damage her neck.
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Mattie
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Re: Halti question

Post by Mattie » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:53 am

DaisyMaisy wrote:I bought one for my boxer, we adopted her recently and she pulls like no other. Her foster used a prong collar on her, but I don't like those so I went for the Halti. It's actually working amazingly...my hands no longer ache after walking her!

I do have a few questions:

1. Should we always use the Halti when walking her, or can we eventually just use the harness?
I would concentrate on teaching her to walk on a loose lead instead of taking her for walks, do 4 or 5 ten minute loose lead walking training, she will soon learn to walk on a loose lead and you won't need the halti.
2. Is it ok to train loose-leash walking (I read a post about it on here) with this type of collar?
NO, you must never teach a dog to walk on a loose lead with a halti, it must be a harness because you turn quickly and can damage her neck if she has a halti on. There are cases were dogs have broken their necks when leaping about on the end of a haltie or other head collar.
She's still getting 100% used to it. When we first put it on, even after slowly introducing it...she hated it and would whip her head back and forth. But she doesn't do that much if at all anymore. Sometimes she does when we meet another dog, and then the owner gets scared and think she's 'agressive' when in reality she just wants that thing out of her way when meeting a new friend. Plus, I think some people think it's a muzzle..
Boxers do find haltis very difficult because of their very short nose, no dog should be walked just on a haltie, they should also have a lead clipped to a harness or collar and walked on this, the halti only used when you need extra control. A lot of damage to a dog's neck can happen if they leap around on the end of a halti.

Like all gadgets they can help but only if they are used properly, it is rare to see haltis used properly with a double ended lead or 2 leads, one clipped to the halti the other to a harness, (prefered) or the collar.

A halti only controls the head, the rest of the dog is free to leap about as much as the dog wants, this doesn't give the owner any control, only control over the head. Dogs can eventually get out of a halti if leaping about on it and can also damage their necks as it over extends one side and compresses the other as the dog is leaping about.

Walking a dog on a collar should only be done when your dog walks well on a lead and doesn't leap about trying to get to another dog. A lead clipped to a collar only controls the neck, the body is still free to leap about and collars can break if this leaping about is quite a lot. Again pulling into or leaping about can damage a dog's neck.

Harnesses control the body, it is more difficult for a dog to leap around if you have a harness on, the owner can hold the dog close to them, if they also have a lead clipped to a halti or collar, the owner also has more control over the head as well, this is the best option to control your dog. Like all gadgets it can harm your dog if they are leaping around but unlike the halti and collar, it doesn't damage the neck causing very expensive vet treatment, all a harness does is bruise the chest unless it doesn't fit properly were it may rub behind the elbows but will do that anyway even if the dog is walking nicely. Harnesses must be fitted properly.
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GundogGuy
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Re: Halti question

Post by GundogGuy » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:46 pm

DaisyMaisy wrote:I bought one for my boxer, we adopted her recently and she pulls like no other. Her foster used a prong collar on her, but I don't like those so I went for the Halti. It's actually working amazingly...my hands no longer ache after walking her!

I do have a few questions:

1. Should we always use the Halti when walking her, or can we eventually just use the harness?
You answered your own question here :D . The halti is an aid to stop pulling by giving you better control of the dogs head but it won't train your dog for you...
DaisyMaisy wrote: 2. Is it ok to train loose-leash walking (I read a post about it on here) with this type of collar?
Yes, IMO because loose leash walking should start with a loose leash so no matter how you are attached to the dog (if at all) you can train 'heel'. Dr Ian Dunbar shows you how here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Saa13XvCdlI

Using that technique there is no need for sharp turns initially... These can be phased in once the dog has the idea to help him focus on (an unpredictable) you :D
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Mattie
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Re: Halti question

Post by Mattie » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:52 am

GundogGuy wrote:
DaisyMaisy wrote: 2. Is it ok to train loose-leash walking (I read a post about it on here) with this type of collar?
Yes, IMO because loose leash walking should start with a loose leash so no matter how you are attached to the dog (if at all) you can train 'heel'. Dr Ian Dunbar shows you how here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Saa13XvCdlI

Using that technique there is no need for sharp turns initially... These can be phased in once the dog has the idea to help him focus on (an unpredictable) you :D
That method will only work if the dog will work for treats, many dogs won't, if they have just been fed they won't work for treats as well.

It is one thing to watch someone with Dr Ian Dunbar working with dogs, he is very experienced and can read the dog, also the dog has been selected for this so he will learn this quickly. It is also not in the real world, an owner doesn't teach their dogs on a platform inside a hall. When advising owners with problems we have to try and see it from the owner's point. I am not criticizing Ian Dunbar, just trying to put this into perspective.

When you teach loose lead walking by turning quickly, the dog continues to walk the same way, this is why you have a long lead and drop the loop when you turn, it doesn't jerk the dog unless the dog isn't paying attention to you, if you are using your voice as well, you dog should quickly be aware of you turning. If you turn as soon as the dog's head goes in front of you, the dog can see your turn and should turn with you. Of course there is always dogs that are too busy with their mind somewhere else and carry on walking which is why I also speak to my dog to help them realise that I am walking the other way. If the dog does go to the end of the lead, the lead stops him going further, this doesn't do any harm to the dog as the pull on the harness isn't a hard one. Dogs quickly learn to recognise when you have turned, 2 or 3 turns only and each one the dog gets better until they work out what is happening.

Personnally I have never found teaching a dog to walk on a loose lease using treats to work, I gave up with it because of this as my dogs would only walk on a loose lease if I had treats which isn't what I wanted, I want my dogs to walk on a loose lease all the time whether I have treats or not. I am not the only one to have this trouble, I know many more the same. Treats do have a place in dog training, but there are lots of other ways of rewarding a dog.
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GundogGuy
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Re: Halti question

Post by GundogGuy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:34 am

of course you are completely right, Mattie... Dr Dunbar merely offers her another 'tool' for the 'toolbox'...
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Mattie
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Re: Halti question

Post by Mattie » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:06 am

I wasn't having a go at him or his methods, they do work for some dogs but not all, we have to change our training methods to train the dog we have which isn't a perfect dog. Yes that does work for some dogs but won't for many, I have never found it to work, at least I have tried it when may people condemn methods without trying them.

For information on different ways and how to adapt training this forum is ideal, everyone can post what worked for them so people coming later can read all the different ways, this can make a big difference to these owners. Everyone's experience is different and different things work for them. When we make posts we have to expect others to put their ideas as well, these will be different, many you may not agree with but unless you have tried them you can't judge. Just because that method didn't work for my dogs doesn't mean it won't for others. A halti which this thread is about is to help an owner have control of their dog, they are not intended for training so shouldn't be used for training no matter which method you are using, having a halti on when training a dog to walk on a loose lead won't help with training.

This is a better clip of teaching with treats, it is more realistic to owners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fujx6vGC4
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GundogGuy
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Re: Halti question

Post by GundogGuy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:34 am

cheers for the link...

I'm going to affiliate with the APDT this year... I wonder where they stand on the 'sharp turning' technique... I know that the old methods incorporating leash jerking are a no-no...
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Mattie
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Re: Halti question

Post by Mattie » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:52 am

You obviously haven't tried this method, how you can criticised something without trying it beats me, if you did you would see that the owner doesn't jerk their dog, the dog just carries on walking, if the owner speaks to the dog as they turn, they get the dog's attention, the dog sees what is happening and turns.

Before you have a go at something, make sure you try it first and try it properly not just give it lip service to say you have done it.

Only people that have an open mind to various ways and methods make good trainers, you mind is closed.

As to the APDT, there are loads of trainers affiliated to th APDT who still use the old yank and scream "Heel" at the dog. It was an APDT trainer who let an adult Boxer into a puppy class that attacked one of my dogs and turned him dog aggressive. To me being affiliated to the APTD means nothing it is just a piece of paper that said a trainer done the right things while being assessed, pity so many of them don't keep this up.
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GundogGuy
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Re: Halti question

Post by GundogGuy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:05 pm

Mattie wrote:You obviously haven't tried this method, how you can criticised something without trying it beats me, if you did you would see that the owner doesn't jerk their dog, the dog just carries on walking, if the owner speaks to the dog as they turn, they get the dog's attention, the dog sees what is happening and turns.

Before you have a go at something, make sure you try it first and try it properly not just give it lip service to say you have done it.

Only people that have an open mind to various ways and methods make good trainers, you mind is closed.

As to the APDT, there are loads of trainers affiliated to th APDT who still use the old yank and scream "Heel" at the dog. It was an APDT trainer who let an adult Boxer into a puppy class that attacked one of my dogs and turned him dog aggressive. To me being affiliated to the APTD means nothing it is just a piece of paper that said a trainer done the right things while being assessed, pity so many of them don't keep this up.
Now come on... You're being a bit presumptuous here are you not? You know nothing of the methods I've tried, discarded, modified or teach. I used the method you speak of only last Tuesday for a severely pulling Golden Retriever who's owners elderly father was getting injured trying to control this dog. I teach clicker training in my classes... 1st step GET Focus if you GET FOCUS then everything falls into place... Then sharp turns and about turns flow with you because the dog has FOCUS...

I think you've misread my post wrongly somewhere... I'm not trying to judge your methods or contradict you in any way...
Thats all I'm going to say on this topic but I'd put it to you that if this is how you are going to behave then you will put off many a decent and helpful person from contributing on here... :cry:
"Oh what gold there is to find when one is blessed with an open mind" - me, not five minutes ago :-)

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Horace's Mum
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Re: Halti question

Post by Horace's Mum » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:03 pm

I think there has been a bit of misunderstanding here - can we now leave it behind and continue with the good linkies please?? 8)

nicinoo
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Re: Halti question

Post by nicinoo » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:16 am

We have just recently adopted a 3 year old bull mastiff, who hasn't been properly trained. He came with a choker collar and walks brilliantly on a lead doesn't pull or anything....until a dog rushes the fence and barks then he pulls and with his bodyweight behind it pulls me and my husband along with him. A friend suggested a haltie which we tried for the first time today. I think we rushed things as my husband actually tried to walk him on it rather than just putting it on and giving him a treat... ANyway my question is when we put it on him, he obviously hated it as not used to it but threw himself around and it came clean off. We put it on properly - but on numerous occassions it just comes off if he pulls backwards, I wonder if we have gotten the size too big or if we have done something wrong. Has anyone else had this problem when first using it. We are at our wits ends with trying to walk him. He's a gorgeous dog, but walking him is very very taxing

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Re: Halti question

Post by Erica » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:13 pm

I walk a Mastiff with a Gentle Leader because, like your dog, he's just too big to control if he gets riled up from situations beyond my control.

I hope, first of all, that you're using a flat collar or harness now instead of a choke chain, since those are so thin that they can horribly damage a dog's neck, even if you discount the fact that they are choking devices. ;) Dogs' collars, I think, are supposed to be at least the width of two vertebrae, so with larger breeds, that's often 1.5" or even 2"...anyways. With a halter-style headcollar you need a second leash and control thing - either a flat collar or a body harness - which should be what you use primarily. The halter can really damage a dog's neck if you use it incorrectly!

As far as the dog reactivity, you can find many threads here with similar problems...I won't try to explain it because I'll invariably forget a crucial step. :) Work on that in the ways recommended by the senior members here. As far as the backing out problem - if you have a shorter leash on the harness and a longer one on the halter, he'll hit the end of the harness leash before he gets pressure on the halter, and won't be able to back out of it. However, I'd suggest taking a couple steps back with the halter and get him used to it and associating it with good things again, like treats if he likes them. That way he won't try to back out of it. :)
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nicinoo
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Re: Halti question

Post by nicinoo » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:59 am

Thanks Erica for your response, when we first got him he had a choker chain but we have since put on a thick normal leather type collar. I think I am getting confused, we had attached the halti to his lead AND to the collar as a "safety" but on another thread a member was talking two leashes and I was getting confused, so he should have two leashes on? I know that you need to attach the lead to not only the halti but the collar as well as to prevent damage to his neck, but wasn't aware that 2 leashes were needed. I will look through the threads to see if I can find the advice you were mentioning. Thanks heaps :D

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