Training Tools in General

[Steph & Bam]

I have always been a huge believer in using the best training tools and methods to suit your dog. This may be purely positive for a 'soft' dog, or involve corrections for a 'hard' or difficult dog. I also believe that there is no wrong way to train a dog, obviously within the constraints of animal cruelty. I also believe that when a person has had the proper training in the use of a particular tool, and that tool is suitable for their dog, then they should be free to use it. Be it a prong collar (note these may look cruel, but they do not hurt, I have pulled one tight around my arm, it did not peirce the skin, nor cause any pain, but did cause a slight discomfort, no I do not use them, but I do condone them where they are necessary and all other options have been exhausted) a choke chain, a halti (IMO far more danger of hurting a dog than any other device, especially when used incorrectly. Just because they are made in sizes for small dogs, does not mean they are suitable for them) etc. I think people need to keep more of an open mind when it comes to training tools and methods as there are so many out there, if one doesn't suit you, move on and find a method or tool that does, but allow those that it does work for to use their method without looking down your nose at them, or shunning them.

[katowaggytail]

Sorry, is this response to anything inparticular on the forum? I only ask as it appears to be a rant towards someone / something, or may be it's just the way it's been written - do correct me If I'm way off.....

I agree that each dog is different - I wouldn't / couldn't use the same methods that a gundog could take, on my ridgie.
Most of us here use the forum want / need help and advice. We look and try all options. I don't think any one looks down at any one else - we are all here with one aim - to (hopefully) have a well trained dog. Most dogs here have varying diffuculties which necessitate seeking advice, mine inculded and all advice is loked at, thought about and then used If I think it is suitable.

[Mattie]

Being the type of person who when told not to use a gadget I have to find out why, I have looked into these gadgets and still won't use them on a dog. If I can teach a horse to walk nicely next to me I can teach a dog as well.

Yesterday a 10 year old girl came and asked me if I could give her any advice on how to stop her Labrador pulling, so I demonstrated then handed her dog back for her. Within in minutes this dog was walking nicely next to her much to the amazement of other that were watching, then then joined in because it looked so easy, and all dogs were walking much better within minutes. All these dogs had either a harness or collar on.

There is also the "Taught Properly", I know quite a few trainers all use things differently and teach them differently. Some methods are quite good, others are down right cruel yet all that have been taught like this can claim that they have been "Taught properly".

Part of having a dog is to work with them to cure any behaviour problems they have and my dogs have come with plenty. Using these types of gadges I am not working with my dogs but dictating to them and using force. I prefer my dogs to do as I ask not do as I tell them.

[mothergrizzly60]

Hi, to start with I am a cross-over trainer and I use to use prong collars and choke chains. The one poster stated that they are only uncomfortable, actually they hurt. I have seen dogs react strongly and vocalize. I was led to believe that it was from surprise, but now know it is because it hurts. They can exacerbate aggression, I know this one personally because of my Rottweiler, from his point of view, the prong was applied whenever a dog came around, so dogs were a bad thing. There is no way to avoid a "perceived" correction because the thing tightens whenever it is pulled. I have seen trainers jerk on it at well. Talk about painful. There are too many alternatives to stop pulling-head collars, no-pull harnesses such as the Sensation or Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness, that there is no reason for someone to need a prong collar. A Positive trainer is not a permissive trainer, but is still one that does not use something that is painful or even uncomfortable. And a prong collar is not always effective. I have know people (myself included) that were jerked off their feet by a dog with a prong. I have never been jerked off my feet by a dog with a head collar or no-pull harness. Dogs are sensitive about their necks, and perceive differently a gentle, but steady pull and a sharp jerk. I liken the difference to someone gently tapping you on the shoulder or jabbing you in the shoulder. Or someone gently taking you by the arm or someone yanking you by the arm. One you will respond positively to, the other not so positively. But with a prong, even a gentle, but steady pull still gives a "correction", from the dogs' point of view. JMHO

[Mattie]

Thanks mothergrizzly60, it is nice to read about someone who has used one of these collars.

I used to be on Doggie Door and several times a week owners would come on for advice because the prong/e collar had made the problem worse. Thankfully for their dogs they did learn a different way, but all these owners had been told to use these by trainers.

[thistledown]

Sorry, is this response to anything inparticular on the forum? I only ask as it appears to be a rant towards someone / something, or may be it's just the way it's been written - do correct me If I'm way off.....

only in the same way that Ocelot0411's thread about prong and ecollars came out of nowhere .......

new threads have to start about something or they wouldn't be new threads .... they would be continuations of old ones

[/quote]

[mum24dog]

I was led to believe that it was from surprise, but now know it is because it hurts. They can exacerbate aggression, I know this one personally because of my Rottweiler, from his point of view, the prong was applied whenever a dog came around, so dogs were a bad thing.

A friend owns a boarding kennels and had a Rottweiler in that wouldn't let anyone near it's neck.
As prong collars are thankfully uncommon here it wasn't immediately spotted that the dog was wearing one but when the staff realised it took them a couple of days to get near enough to get it off.
By the time the owners returned the dog was much better but despite a tactful talk by the kennel owner, the dog was never seen again and I'm sure the prong collar went straight back on, simply because the woman said she wasn't strong enough to control the dog otherwise. So instead of a dog they could have trained to walk nicely they ended up with an aggressive dog that was even harder to control.
Like Mattie, I prefer to avoid gadgets and all my training is done off lead wherever possible.
I have Haltis but haven't used them in a while. I only use them when road walking several of my dogs at once to make it easier to control them if one or more gets spooked. I don't use them as a training tool.
I have harnesses too. One of mine in particular is fear aggressive to other dogs when on lead after being attacked and he is more relaxed with one on. Again, not a training tool as such, just the appropriate restraint where the dogs have to be on lead.
The OP believes positive methods can work with a "soft" dog but corrections may be needed with a "hard" dog.
I think it all the more important to use positive methods with a hard dog.
Meeting aggression with punishment and aggression is bad news and is likely to end up in confrontation which the dog could well win to its cost. Harsh methods have led to the death of many dogs who have bitten because of them.
I like to think that I am smarter than my dogs and can get my way without having a battle.
Our latest dog wa 8 months old when we got him and had learnt to bite to get his own way. He is a hard headed working dog with a very high pain threshold and stubborn as collies can be.
Should I have "dominated" him to stop the behaviour?
If I had, I would have had a dangerous dog on my hands or one that was a quivering wreck.
Never putting him in a position to feel the need to bite and making it worth his while to do as I asked worked, plus redirecting his working drive onto something else. Easy and a lot less stressful for all concerned than the alternative.

Pam

[Carrie]

I totally agree with you Mum24....all good points.

The OP stated the the prong collar doesn't hurt. If it didn't hurt, then how can it work? Either a dog works to avoids something painful or uncomfortable or he works to earn a reward. Neutrality does not change behavior. Surely a prong collar couldn't be construed as a reward. (?)

There are many ways to create the liklihood of success without the use of these kinds of aversives, which can be associated with other things in the environment and cause more problems than they solve. Many people say they use PR methods, but they leave out important things like practicing first without distractions to teach the dog the skill first. And so often people tend to skip on reinforcemen. (just a few of the things I've noticed)

For times when high distractions are unavoidable, there are those no pull harnesses....much gentler and the dog can be kept under control for the time being until more training has taken place.

I've had my share of high drive dogs and I haven't had to use those things in order to teach them. They're very receptive to positive methods.
My Dobe was so cute. I taught him that if he did get almost to the end of his leash sometimes, I'd say in a playful voice, like a small child, "uh-oh..." And he'd back up along side me in big hops, his paws flailing and his stubby tail wagging. It was a game, not a scolding. (all I did was stop walking forward to teach him where he needed to be and then reinforce when he was along side me) He would sometimes just need a reminder. Then I'd tell him, "nice walkies." LOL. Everything was a game with that dog and me....so connected we were. (sorry about getting off track...I still miss him so much)