Choke chains

[Cheetah]

CGC is the FIRST STEP to everything else, and it DOES say something - it says that my dog has been taught to be very well behaved in public and as a pet. It shows that he has been taught to walk on a loose lead, AND by my side when I ask him to, that he has been taught to interact properly with other dogs and people, to accept handling and grooming, to sit, down, stay, & come, to be comfortable if I leave the room, and to be comfortable with strange distractions, such as a chair falling, people running by, a moving shopping cart or stroller, etc. He also knows a WHOLE LOT of other stuff that's not CGC-based (long stays, reliable recall, retrieves, off-leash skills etc.) and I didn't have to resort to choking him to get what I wanted. And YES, he will do ALL this WITHOUT treats.

CGC is only the BEGINNING for us, because I fully plan on going for TDI, Agility, Obedience, and Flyball. And I plan on doing ALL this with my dog using the SAME training methods I've been using - Reward-based training/Positive Reinforcement. I highly doubt Shippo's going to be willing to weave or scale an A-frame if I'm jerking him around on the end of a chain.

Perhaps all those clients just weren't doing the Positive Reinforcement methods correctly, since that seems pretty common still. It's not just tossing treats and saying "good boy." There's a little more to it than that and many people still don't understand.

[ckranz]

I positively detest training using treats and positive only reinforcement.
It will not work in a month of Sundays.Just ask some of my clients who have been through a number of training methods before trying a check chain.

Well then I guess I better tell Shippo, my AKC Canine Good Citizen who was trained using mainly positive reinforcement and clicker training, with treats, toys, praise, and life rewards (and absolutely NO CHOKE CHAINS) that all that training didn't work after all lol...

If canine good citizen is the highest level of OB required then I would agree, you can most likely train any dog with treats, clickers and coercion.

Paul Cantrell

I know of several dogs and trainers having more than 30 titles in obedience and agility that use +R -P exclusively. As far as precision work do a search for Atilla and Fly in canine freestyle.

here's a link
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1966

Of course there are those people in this world who like to torture creatures smaller and weaker than themselves. They can put any name on it they like (training, conditioning) it all amounts to a desire to inflict pain on something weaker than one's self.

[Mattie]

Anyone who has seen Mary Ray and her dogs doing Heelwork to Music will tell you how awesome it is, Mary and her dogs do incredible dancing, all done by positive methods. Mary gives demonstrations all over the world now as well as in the UK.

http://www.maryray.co.uk/


That is control of your dog.[/url]

[Missymay]

Good for you, Cheetah!!! Training can be addictive, can't it?

I will never do regular OB because I refuse to give any of my money to an organization that supports puppy mills (the AKC), so I found a fun alternative in APDT Rally Obedience. You should check it out!

[Cracker]

"If canine good citizen is the highest level of OB required then I would agree, you can most likely train any dog with treats, clickers and coercion. "

Hmmmm. Methinks Mr. Cantrell does not know what "coercion" really is. His comment above implies it is related to positive reinforcement training...

coercion: –noun 1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance. 2. force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.


Seems to me coercion is HIS kind of thing, not ours.

But then, lack of understanding of what we discuss here along with an inflated ego often go hand in hand with non R+ trainers. They are, simply, the bullies in the schoolyard, destined to be left behind.

As for choke chains, regardless of whether they are effective (and in many cases, due to handler deficiency, they are not)..they are unpleasant reminders that many humans think they are above the animal fray. They are not necessary and do nothing to assist in building a relationship with "man's best friend".

[emmabeth]

Right...

Im locking this thread because it just attracts people who come here purely to cause trouble. Advising the use of prongs, chokes, shock collars is NOT welcome here... and those coming here purely to do so are not tolerated.

The efficiency, accuracy and saftey of positive, reward based training/teaching is well documented and proven.

The same goes for the lack of efficency, accuracy and the dangers of 'fall out' and indeed outright cruelty, in punishment based teaching.

If some people refuse to acknowledge that...