Choke chains

[Mattie]

When used correctly, they work.

That is true but how many people can use the properly, very few and many trainers can't either. Why run the risk of damaging your dog when there are much better methods?

You shouldn't have to pull or yank the dog all over the place.

Again I agree, you shouldn't have to pull or yank a dog for any reason, I don't.

Haltis disguise the problem of a dog that pulls and can be very uncomfortable.

I hate halties, they can also do a lot of damage to a dog and there has been the odd case were a dog has broken his neck because of a halti.

Harnesses merely promote pulling.

Rubbish, all my dogs were pullers when I got them but none pull now and they all wear harnesses.

I train dogs to walk on a check chain each and every time.
Having been taught the proper correction they do not pull or wander on the leash and are easily trained to walk consistently on a loose leash.
As previously stated - Training is a 24/7 job.

Have you taught the dog to walk on a loose lead or has the dog worked it out for himself because it hurts when he doesn't? Corrections from a choke chain hurts the dog, but why hurt them when they can be taught without any pain?

I positively detest training using treats and positive only reinforcement.
It will not work in a month of Sundays.Just ask some of my clients who have been through a number of training methods before trying a check chain.

You work for wages so why shouldn't dogs, your pay is your treats why not work for free if you don't believe in treats.

Reward based training don't always mean treats, no point in using treats if your dog has just been fed, praise, toys etc work just as well.

[Mattie]

I learnt how to teach a dog to walk on a loose lead when I went on a TTouch workshop, we tried it with each other first before trying it with the dogs.

I have a trail/tracking type harness on my dogs, I have put a picture on of Bonnie in her's. These go down each side of the neck instead of round the chest so it is more difficult to pull in them. also the strap round the body is futher back than most harnesses and they don't rub. 2 of my dogs rub easily but these harnesses have never rubbed them.

I also have a 6ft lead which I attach to the harness, with the dog on my left I hold the loop in the lead in my right hand, my left hand holds the lead nearer my dog but which lets them me on a loose lead, the lead between my hands is loose as well.

I say, close to my dogs and start to walk, if their head goes in front of my hip, I drop the lead in my left hand and turn and walk the other way. When the dog is getting close, again I say close. I don't get very far at first, usually just walk up and down the same piece of pavement but it doesn't take long when my dog starts to watch what I am doing and starts to walk next to me.

After about 5 or 10 minutes, depending on how they are doing, I like to finish on a good note with praising my dog, I stop the training. I do this daily until my dogs automatically walks close to me, normally about 7 to 10 days.

With this method if you forget to drop the lead in your left hand it does pull on the dog but not hard and because he has a harness on, it doesn't hurt him. If your timing is off and you let him get further forward than you want, it won't matter, just make sure next time your timing is better.

If I can teach a dog to walk on a loose lead anyone can

[emmabeth]

Thanks for that Mattie..

With a method like that available to us all, there is I feel no reason or excuse to use anything else.

[D]

I have a harness very similar to the one you use. It doesn't rub her so thats great, but she has leant to pull against it.

My girl was in a rescue centre for nearly a year, there they walked her on a halti head collar, a harness and the collar, (not all that the same time) all of which she was allowed to pull with, as she was never given any training whilst there.

With the halti she stiffens her shoulders so it doesn't turn her head any way. We don't use a halti any more but we do use a gentle leader. I tried training her on the collar last night, but as soon as I clipped her on I lost all control.

I seem to be doing as you said in your post and we are still having problems so I am convinced that I must be doing something wrong. The only thing I can see that is different is that I dont have a 6ft lead.

She is a million times better than she was when we first got her (you couldn't take a single step without her pulling), but she wont do it all the time, and everyone keeps telling me its the easiest thing to teach, to me it is one of the hardest.

[emmabeth]

The hardest thing about it is being consistant.

You do need a longer leash so you can perform the about turn without pulling at your dog, i find pulling at them just makes them pull back, which is also why just pulling a dog back to the right position doesnt work (and why so many people mis use choke chains to do the same thing).

The real toughy though is the consistancy, it is REALLY hard to absolutely NEVER let your dog pull, to about turn each time they get ahead of where you want them, to not just once pull them back because you are in a rush or are nearly at the park etc.

If that is the problem and most likely it is, its the hardest part of the method, you just need to get your head round it.

It DOESNT actually matter if you dont get to the park that day, your dog wont die. Really. If you just walk up and down your street for a week, thats fine.

Dont set your goals too high, if you have to go out in a rush dont take the dog if it means letting her pull, take your time.

If you do miss out on walks whilst training, replace them with training sessions, clicker work and games.

Find your dog walking 'zen' and relax, dont get frustrated or worked up because the dog keeps pulling and you arent getting any nearer to the park. Its fine!

[D]

I think the problem is that she isn't paying any attension to me whilts we are out. She was in kennels so long and wasn't socialised before that at all either, that her attension is very where else.
We ahve tried every type of food good, hundreds of toys, but there is nothing more interesting to her than the big wide world.

Our dog walker anf trainer had her out this afternoon and her said the same thing, she is just every where else except on you.

I do try really hard to be consistant and when she is having a bad day we spend a 2 hour walk just getting out of the estate.

I will get a longer lead and start using that, and we are seeing our behavourist in a couple of weeks so will get her to check I am doing it correctly.

When I rang the behavourist up a few weeks ago after a particularly bad time, she explained to me that my girl isn't badly trained or being a cow bad on purpose, as when she is having a good day she is brill and will do every thing you ask of her, it all depends on what is going on in her head at the particular moment, because of all the change and confussion thats happened in her past.

I'll stick with it though and we will come out the other end, (hopefully before christmas hehe!)

[Lis & Addy]

I positively detest training using treats and positive only reinforcement.
It will not work in a month of Sundays.Just ask some of my clients who have been through a number of training methods before trying a check chain.

How--odd. How very odd.

Addy arrived in my home untrained and unsocialized, a year old--and it took me about two days to have her reliably sitting on command and coming on command. Treats and positive reinforcement have taught her all the basic commands, a couple of tricks, and helped her enormously improve her behavior in the face of the things that just overwhelmed her when she arrived: strange dogs, strange people, backpacks, and anything on wheels that isn't a standard passenger car. Some of these things aren't challenges for her at all anymore; some of them are still challenges but she's doing lots better and still improving--and all with treats, clicker, and positive reinforcement.

And yet you tell me it never, ever works. How--odd.

Lis

[Mattie]

I have a harness very similar to the one you use. It doesn't rub her so thats great, but she has leant to pull against it.

Don't let her get to the stage where she is pulling, turn as soon as her head goes in front of your hip.

If you have a nice, kind friend, practice with her, let her walk in front of you and pull, drop the lead in your left hand and turn quickly and walk away quickly and see what happens It will be very difficult for your friend not to follow you

If your dog does start to pull and she is not too far in front of you, lift your hand, it will lift her chest and make it very difficult for her to pull.

[Ocelot0411]

I was practising this last night with Ellie and we have had a break-through!!! Yippee!!!

The stopping and starting technique was beginning to work, but was a bit frustrating for both of us, but this method is BRILLIANT! By the end of our walk she was trotting along happily beside me looking up at me to see where I was off to next (and after a treat no doubt).

The only thing I was going to add, which I would imagine you do anyway Mattie, is that once Ellie is trotting along nicely beside me she gets a few of her favourite treats as we walk. Oh yes and I think I have the same lead as Mattie (is it the long black training lead that is doubled ended?) which really helps. You can get this from Pets at Home.

So lots more practice for us! Thanks Mattie for the very detailed post, it was really, really, helpful. And not a choke chain in sight...........fancy that.

[Mattie]

I was practising this last night with Ellie and we have had a break-through!!! Yippee!!!

The stopping and starting technique was beginning to work, but was a bit frustrating for both of us, but this method is BRILLIANT! By the end of our walk she was trotting along happily beside me looking up at me to see where I was off to next (and after a treat no doubt).

I am still amazed at how quickly it works not matter how bad the dog is. Congratulations

The only thing I was going to add, which I would imagine you do anyway Mattie, is that once Ellie is trotting along nicely beside me she gets a few of her favourite treats as we walk. Oh yes and I think I have the same lead as Mattie (is it the long black training lead that is doubled ended?) which really helps. You can get this from Pets at Home.

I don't normally give a treat until I am finished but I do give them lots of praise, hugs etc. Once they are walking nicely next to me, I walk for a few strides, ask for sit, praise, then off again. Gradually I extend the length of the walk before asking for the sit. Not all my dogs will work for treats but they all work for praise.

My lead isn't double ended but they work just as well, it is the length of the lead that matters, it is kinder to the dog.

So lots more practice for us! Thanks Mattie for the very detailed post, it was really, really, helpful. And not a choke chain in sight...........fancy that.

It is down to your hard work, all I have done is give you the way to do it. It won't be long before you will be able to help others as well because it is the difficult dogs that teach us and expand our knowledge.

Congratulations and well done.

[D]

We have had a very small break through. I went and got a longer traininng lead and have started to use that. On Saturday after 20 minutes of not getting any where we started to make sme head way and actually walked. Then yesterday she was a lot better so clipped her off hre head collar and onto her normal collar. After 10 minute of not going any where because she wouldn't even stand still she started trotting along side me, I think we even got up to a huge 17 steps in one go.

I know this probably doesn't sound much to others but for us its a huge break through, we were really starting to loose faith.

One question though, now we are walking nicely (hopefullyit wasn't a one off and she will continue to improve) forwards, the only problem is the pulling to the side, do I do the same. She will pull to the side because there is grass on the side of the path she wants to smell or if she wants to go a different way to me.

[Mattie]

Well done, it is a wonderful feeling when you start to get there. Your dog should be on a harness though because when you turn and walk the other way it can give their head or neck quite a jolt. You can always have 2 leads but work on the one on the harness until you need the one on the head.

Do exactly the same if your dog wants to go sideways, but she should be next to you and this will give you more time to react when she goes sideways.

[daneluver]

I don't have anything to say because I agree with EVERYTHING emmabeth has said.

Also if the trainers believe that those are good tools to use and aren't for positive training, then you should probably forget about them and find a new trainer that uses positive methods.

Good luck there!

~ Hannah

[DogCharmer]

I have a pekignese/mintiure poodle mix and I was told they were not harmful so I put one on him the correct way. All he did was pull and make choking sounds, so I walkied him back home by clipping the leash on the other ring so it wont choke him. I felt soo bad.

[Theresa]

HI,
I have been training a variety of animals for years, including exotics. I teach puppy and adult classes using only clicker and rewards and have excellent results. The only time I have had "failures" in class is almost always because the owners weren't putting in the valuable time to train properly.

Training methods have developed tremendously over the years (thank goodness) and most reputable trainers would not even consider using choke collars anymore. They are not necessary as most people now know the best way to train your pet is through positive reinforcement only.

I believe that some trainers are either not open to newer and more progressive methods, or are just reluctant to change. The nice thing about forums like this is to read about others methods, learn and hopefully implement the ones that should be used.