Vibrating Collars?

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LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:58 pm

forkin14 wrote:
LmJanes wrote: There are another alternative positive methods to work with deaf dogs, but it takes a lot of patience and time. I don't have a problem with people who chose to use e collar with their dogs after they have a clear understanding communication. The dog understands that the owner is correcting the dog... Not something else.
Hmm not so much. A friend used a shock collar on her dog for "corrections" and the dog became frightened of her and wouldn't come near her. Then one day while she went out, the dog chewed off the collar, destroyed the collar and searched out the remote and chewed it up. How would a dog know it was "being corrected" when it doesn't know what it did wrong? That is why these methods don't work. Nobody is telling the dog what to do. It's a dog, so when it does something a dog does (say barking at something) it gets told off, how is it supposed to know not to act like a dog? Makes no sense to me, won't make sense to a dog.

I assume your friend is a regular dog owner right? Do you read my previous post that I pointed out that I don't advocate pet owners using these?

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Noobs
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Noobs » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:00 pm

Seems like a lot of your posts, though, going back to the ones in 2008 even, advocate the use of aversive tools such as shock collars and prong collars. I know you weren't responding to my post, but I still wanted to mention that everyone is advised to stick to the forum rules regardless of whether you're talking about average dog owners and professional K-9 cop trainers and the like.

LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:06 pm

Mattie wrote:
How do the police in the UK teach their dogs, the are not allowed to use shock collars, their dogs are very well trainied.

I have a Malinois cross, she is a really easy dog to train, far easier than a JRT cross I had.

There are no need for corrections, if you need to use gadgets like a shock or prong collar the training isn't good enough.

You don't know anything about me so how do you know if I understand or not? Try training a terrier, you can't teach them by using punishment, unlike GSDs, Malinois etc. Terriers think for themselves and will out think you if you use punishment of any sort.

If a dog is showning any signs of being dangerous then they shouldn't be doing the job they are for the safety of the public.


You can ask these police officers with k9 units ask them what kind of problem do they often run into with their dogs. I'm not surprised if they say trying to get their dogs to OUT. I don't know what kind of method they use to teach their dogs out.

Do you think they want to throw away their $10,000 worth of dog away because they are unsuitable? I know a few that would not. Didn't you realize that it cost the police department a thousand of dollars to train and buy these dogs? They don't come cheap at all. I think it will be interesting to see how Victoria can train dogs that refused to out... It is not because they don't know the meaning to OUT.

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:09 pm

Noobs wrote:Seems like a lot of your posts, though, going back to the ones in 2008 even, advocate the use of aversive tools such as shock collars and prong collars. I know you weren't responding to my post, but I still wanted to mention that everyone is advised to stick to the forum rules regardless of whether you're talking about average dog owners and professional K-9 cop trainers and the like.

I don't visit this forum that often until recently. Ok, I will follow the rule and leave this forum because i don't think it is worth the problem to deal with. Have a nice day.

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Noobs
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Noobs » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:13 pm

::mumblemumble:: allyouweredoingwasarguingandnotcontributinganythingusefulanyway ::mumblemumble::

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:20 pm

LmJanes wrote: You can ask these police officers with k9 units ask them what kind of problem do they often run into with their dogs. I'm not surprised if they say trying to get their dogs to OUT. I don't know what kind of method they use to teach their dogs out.

Do you think they want to throw away their $10,000 worth of dog away because they are unsuitable? I know a few that would not. Didn't you realize that it cost the police department a thousand of dollars to train and buy these dogs? They don't come cheap at all. I think it will be interesting to see how Victoria can train dogs that refused to out... It is not because they don't know the meaning to OUT.

Yes I have spoken to the police dog trainers who train these dogs and yes they can call their dogs off, if they couldn't the dogs are no good as police dogs. Things are different in the UK, if any police dog acted the way those dogs do in those clips they would be pts, not even given the chance of a home because of their aggression. No, trained police dogs don't come cheap but the price of a member of the public being attacked is not a price that our police are willing to pay.

The dogs in those clips were out of control and shouldn't be police dogs no matter how much they cost, they could kill a child, that price is far too high. No dog should be out of control like that, especially police dogs. Those dogs are not well trained, in fact they are badly trained.
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by forkin14 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:25 pm

Noobs wrote:::mumblemumble:: allyouweredoingwasarguingandnotcontributinganythingusefulanyway ::mumblemumble::

:lol: oh but Noobs we have someone here who knows many k9 trainers and the issues they face and how they neeeed e collars.

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forkin14
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by forkin14 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:28 pm

And now that I think about it.. If a dog is always "shocked off" whomever it is attacking (IF that even works even though to me I figured it'd keep on doing what it's doing due to anger/fear from being shocked), well it isn't going to listen to a word, it'll wait for that shock :?:

Does that make sense or am I way off here?

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:31 pm

I suspect that the dog blames the sleeve for the shock Forkin, which is why they won't come off it, like any self respecting dog, when they are abused like that they want to kill it.

Those dogs looked to me as badly trained.
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Wes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Wes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:22 pm

I was speaking with a local K9 officer yesterday about his Malinois and Doberman (the Malinois was the K9, Dobe just a regular pet), and I did ask what sort of training they used with the dogs. He admitted he did once train with e-collars, but one of his fellow officers had a dog that needed to be put down for aggression problems that he believed stemmed from the e-collars. His Malinois, Doberman, and all the current K9s on the force are all trained with positive reinforcement - he himself uses a clicker.

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:48 pm

forkin14 wrote:
Noobs wrote:::mumblemumble:: allyouweredoingwasarguingandnotcontributinganythingusefulanyway ::mumblemumble::

:lol: oh but Noobs we have someone here who knows many k9 trainers and the issues they face and how they neeeed e collars.
Why do you need to make fun of me? Have I been rude to you guys? I was trying to start an intelligent debate and I guess it did not end up that way. You assumed I support aversive kind of method by judging my previous posts? Did you see me post anything about using e collar? in one of my recent posts to a guy about his rottweiler puppy? I made the choice to leave because you said I'm breaking the rule.

I came back because I want to say something to West and Mattie about their valid points about police dogs. I am not interested in flaming. I didn't want to break any of the rules in here and it looks like I did not make too many friends here due to my opinion. I want to say to you both I am proud to start my dog on positive reinforcement and got him titled. Do you think I didn't know too many trainers? Well... I can tell you that there is another trainer that I has my totally respect is Michael Ellis. Do you know who is Ivan Balabanov? Michael Ellis who owns loups du soleil working dogs? Gerben from Holland? What about Phillip from Netherland? Fred Hassen? (I dislike him anyway) Have you met and do a handshake with any of them?
Last edited by LmJanes on Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:08 pm

Mattie wrote:
Yes I have spoken to the police dog trainers who train these dogs and yes they can call their dogs off, if they couldn't the dogs are no good as police dogs. Things are different in the UK, if any police dog acted the way those dogs do in those clips they would be pts, not even given the chance of a home because of their aggression. No, trained police dogs don't come cheap but the price of a member of the public being attacked is not a price that our police are willing to pay.

The dogs in those clips were out of control and shouldn't be police dogs no matter how much they cost, they could kill a child, that price is far too high. No dog should be out of control like that, especially police dogs. Those dogs are not well trained, in fact they are badly trained.
Well, unfortunately I did a web search and found several articles related to police dogs in the UK that accidentally bit someone. I can list all the sources from BBC and none said that these dogs were put to sleep. I don't know how they were being trained or were e collar trained, but these mistakes were definitely handlers' fault for not taking extra cautious. I'm curious in your opinion do you view them as dangerous? Should they be put to sleep for a bad mistake?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 606025.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale ... 011537.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 250862.stm


here is a video happen in london you will see a police dog bit a person who did nothing. I can't find anything if this dog is being put down or whatever.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009 ... e-dog-bite
look at :23/48

This subject is a bit off the point. It has nothing to do about the debate on e collar. I should start a thread about this, but I don't want to be in trouble with the rule of the forum. This accidents can be preventable if handlers have been more responsible and be careful with their dogs in public, but unfortunately it can happen to anyone. For me personally, I feel safety comes first in the public so that's why I think sometimes e collar is needed with really bad trained dogs like the previous posts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009 ... e-dog-bite

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:27 pm

Wes wrote:I was speaking with a local K9 officer yesterday about his Malinois and Doberman (the Malinois was the K9, Dobe just a regular pet), and I did ask what sort of training they used with the dogs. He admitted he did once train with e-collars, but one of his fellow officers had a dog that needed to be put down for aggression problems that he believed stemmed from the e-collars. His Malinois, Doberman, and all the current K9s on the force are all trained with positive reinforcement - he himself uses a clicker.
Yes, that is not surprising actually.. I am not going to deny that it doesn't happen because I have seen it happen before to several dogs and some of them became a handler aggressive too.. A guy had a dual protection dog bit him a couple times and then sold him to four different handlers and all ended up in the hospital too. Later they donated the dog to a woman police officer who gets along together great and had like 20 legit street bites before she decided to retire him. I bet this dog was not treated fair or was heavily used as you say aversion methods. I support positive reinforcements for all dogs and puppies for building a bond and teaching a new command. If they make a mistake, do it again and again. Of course, but my concern will be these dogs who refused to out or is not considered safe in the public? I remember a few years ago there was a sniff border custom dog bit a woman at the airport in Dallas, Tx.

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by emmabeth » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:47 pm

I am confused here.

If you want to start a thread debating something, feel free - general chat is possibly better for that.

I am confused as to why you are dragging up an old thread, which was incidentally about vibrating collars, and the purpose was to distract rather than punish (although theres a blurring there and crossover.... and we discouraged the OP because it wouldnt be effective). We HAVE a user who uses a vibrating collar with her deaf dog, but she doesnt use it to distract or as an aversive, she has conditioned the dog so he responds to the vibrate as others would to a clicker.

People always get a bit edgy here when some one drags up an old thread and takes it off in a different direction.

This forum is about positive reinforcement based training, so any recommendation of positive punishment is not likely to go down well. If you can refrain from doing that and merely explore/discuss the issues rather than be seen to be supporting/recommending it, thats fine.

FWIW - plenty of people can and do train animals to do very precise, dangerous, important things using positive training. People train animals that can kill us accidentally by merely being clumsy or playful, people train animals to do things like find landmines and bombs where errors are NOT acceptable, and people can and do train dogs to bite and hold a human and out, reliably, using positive dog training.

If I were training this, the dog would not BE biting a person until he knew the 'out' command reliably, the situation just wouldnt crop up that the dog would be in a position to put people in danger, before he would reliably out. There are ways and means of setting this up so this occurs - if you need to rely on an e-collar to do this, in my opinion you are a fool (not you personally, you generically). Relying on a tool is not reliable at all - it can malfunction, it can be pulled off, the battery can go flat, the remote can malfunction, be dropped, be broken.... thats before you even begin to consider the potential fall out with the dog, the amount of 'wastage' of dogs in training who cannot handle that type of training and have to be ditched from the program...
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:26 am

LmJanes wrote: Well, unfortunately I did a web search and found several articles related to police dogs in the UK that accidentally bit someone. I can list all the sources from BBC and none said that these dogs were put to sleep. I don't know how they were being trained or were e collar trained, but these mistakes were definitely handlers' fault for not taking extra cautious. I'm curious in your opinion do you view them as dangerous? Should they be put to sleep for a bad mistake?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 606025.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale ... 011537.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 250862.stm
I don't have the time at the moment to read these, I will come back to them when I can.
here is a video happen in london you will see a police dog bit a person who did nothing. I can't find anything if this dog is being put down or whatever.

Just because it isn't reported that a dog has been pts doesn't mean it hasn't. With a police dog "biting" someone, they dog is normally take out of service to be reassessed and possibly more training, the dogs that you put the clips up for were out of control and would have done serious injury if they could. There is a difference in a dog biting and an attack that will do serious injury. Neither is acceptable but a dog as powerful as a police dog can kill if they are not under control.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009 ... e-dog-bite
look at :23/48
The dog biting that man was a handler error, he wasn't aware that the man was there, his attention was on someone else. The dog wasn't out of control the same way the dogs were in your clips of USA police dogs were, they were hyped up because of the situation.
This subject is a bit off the point. It has nothing to do about the debate on e collar. I should start a thread about this, but I don't want to be in trouble with the rule of the forum. This accidents can be preventable if handlers have been more responsible and be careful with their dogs in public, but unfortunately it can happen to anyone. For me personally, I feel safety comes first in the public so that's why I think sometimes e collar is needed with really bad trained dogs like the previous posts.
Why did you bring it up them, this thread was about vibration collars, you turned it into shock collars, you also brought up the use of them with police dogs, I just replied.

You have taught your dog with positive methods but you still say that there are times when a shock collar is needed, we are disagreeing and putting our points, so now you are objecting to this.
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