Vibrating Collars?

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:42 am

Kaceymack, you may be better to pm Horace's Mum because she doesn't come on every day.
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Noobs
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Noobs » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:53 am

Salomé wrote:
MarkF wrote:
"Sweetie" I ain't a lazy dog owner if that`s what was being implied
Mark, I believe Mattie was responding to the prior poster (Sweetie0202), not to you. She wasn't implying that you were lazy. :)
I don't mean to bring this back up as a bad thing. I just got a kick out of imagining Mattie actually calling someone "Sweetie". :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mark, stick around, you have to ask questions to get information you need, regardless of how uncomfortable the question may be. As long as you're open-minded about the answers it's all good. So don't worry, people around here have thicker skin than you may think. :D

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:42 am

I am just a sweet puddy cat really Noobs



Image
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

dontpugme
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by dontpugme » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:50 pm

Mattie wrote:I am just a sweet puddy cat really Noobs



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Where do you get these wacky pics???
--dontpugme

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:24 pm

I have had them so long I can't remember, I have them on my Photobucket so if you want you can copy them.
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LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:20 pm

What is your good reasons for using it? Why do you need it? Have you tried it with a positive reinforcement and a clicker? When the dog does something right, you reward the dog with a food, praise, or toy. If that cure the problem, you have no need to use one. I don't like to see these being use on dogs whose owners are clueless and think that e collar is the fast way to fix the problem.

Well, I was the one who brought up the idea about using e collar on deaf dogs in one of my posts. I can see that many people in here don't embrace the e collar vibration idea on deaf dogs which is fine with me. There are another alternative positive methods to work with deaf dogs, but it takes a lot of patience and time. I don't have a problem with people who chose to use e collar with their dogs after they have a clear understanding communication. The dog understands that the owner is correcting the dog... Not something else.

I'm not too fond of e collar, but I can see where it is needed especially with very drive stubborn working dogs who knew the command "out" and chose to ignore the command. Believe me, I have seen some trainers tried to use a favorite toy to out the dog, but the dog thinks only about biting hard on the sleeve or bite suit. So.. Sometimes e collar seems to be helpful in getting the dog out due to the shock or vibration. If Victoria has a good ways how to get a dog out, then that will be great. I have seen dogs will out for the toys, but will not out if it is biting a decoy in his suit or sleeve.

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:24 pm

LmJanes wrote:What is your good reasons for using it? Why do you need it? Have you tried it with a positive reinforcement and a clicker? When the dog does something right, you reward the dog with a food, praise, or toy. If that cure the problem, you have no need to use one. I don't like to see these being use on dogs whose owners are clueless and think that e collar is the fast way to fix the problem.
Vibrating collars are used by owners of deaf dogs to communicate with them, they are not used to punish the dog for anything. Horace's mum is the best person to answer this as she uses on on her deaf collie.
Well, I was the one who brought up the idea about using e collar on deaf dogs in one of my posts. I can see that many people in here don't embrace the e collar vibration idea on deaf dogs which is fine with me. There are another alternative positive methods to work with deaf dogs, but it takes a lot of patience and time. I don't have a problem with people who chose to use e collar with their dogs after they have a clear understanding communication. The dog understands that the owner is correcting the dog... Not something else.
If a deaf dog is not looking at you, how can you ask him to do something? This is were a vibrating collar comes in useful, it tells the dog to look at his owner. It is not used as a punishment or a correction.
I'm not too fond of e collar, but I can see where it is needed especially with very drive stubborn working dogs who knew the command "out" and chose to ignore the command.
I would look first at the training of a dog who doesn't obey before labelling him as stubborn, dogs don't do stubborn as us humans do. Maybe the command hadn't been proofed properly and the dog doesn't understand as he should.
Believe me, I have seen some trainers tried to use a favorite toy to out the dog, but the dog thinks only about biting hard on the sleeve or bite suit. So.. Sometimes e collar seems to be helpful in getting the dog out due to the shock or vibration. If Victoria has a good ways how to get a dog out, then that will be great. I have seen dogs will out for the toys, but will not out if it is biting a decoy in his suit or sleeve.
No, there is NEVER a time when a shock collar is helpful, if the dog doesn't do what the handler wants it is a lack of training problem and the dog needs more training or often it is the handler doesn't understand dogs or how they learn so don't teach them properly. Usually the handlers who use shock collars are to lazy or impatient to take the time to train the dog the way he should be trained. There should never been a need to punish a dog, that is just insecure humans trying to control the dog without putting the training in.
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LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:42 pm

Mattie,

I don't know how much do you have an experience with high drive malinois, and dutch shepherd. If you said you believe it is not needed, how can you get these dogs off the suit when called out? Eh? Oh yeah, you start with a tug and teach the out command, the dog understands of course. We have done it believe me..... When you are 20 feet away from the dog and expect him to out and he refuse. Now how do you get him to out? On a long leash and a prong collar? Or on a long leash and on a flat collar? Why do you think police handlers have e collar on their dogs? I think one clear hard correction with out affecting the dog is better than a thousand nagging corrections. I'm more than happy to give you Chipper and see what you can do with him. Good luck! It is not easy as you think it is.

I don't think you really understand when they are in a high drive and ignore a command. They are way over their heads with biting the suit and having too much fun don't want to out.. I have a maliniois who does french ring and he is pretty biddable. He will out when I asked him to on the field. I have seen some dogs will not out for their handlers... It gets to point where it be dangerous for the handler and decoy because the dog is too obsessed with the prize (sleeve or bite suite).

LmJanes
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:52 pm

I found a police video that is good example where it gets so dangerous where the dog will not out for the handler. Look at happen he redirect his bite on his handler after biting the criminal. No how do you get this dog off without it redirect you? Well.... Sometimes e collar helps a dog like this to out. I personally don't like use e collar, but it is needed sometimes in a case like this.. I don't like how they handle the dog either and I feel sorry for the dog.


A bit graphic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4moJqmTtBgg
LOOK AT :44/1:32

Also here is another video of rottweiler where he refused to release...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiJTrcX5 ... re=related

Another one here is a german shepherd who did no want to out and get really chewy when he had to. The k9 handler had to pull the leash up to get his gsd out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH4fBgaZ ... re=related

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by forkin14 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:12 pm

LmJanes,

How do you know a shock collar wasn't used to train these dogs and then once it was off in these set-up situations, the dogs didn't respond? Maybe these dogs weren't trained enough before these "tests". Those videos don't back up your argument.

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forkin14
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by forkin14 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:17 pm

LmJanes wrote: There are another alternative positive methods to work with deaf dogs, but it takes a lot of patience and time. I don't have a problem with people who chose to use e collar with their dogs after they have a clear understanding communication. The dog understands that the owner is correcting the dog... Not something else.
Hmm not so much. A friend used a shock collar on her dog for "corrections" and the dog became frightened of her and wouldn't come near her. Then one day while she went out, the dog chewed off the collar, destroyed the collar and searched out the remote and chewed it up. How would a dog know it was "being corrected" when it doesn't know what it did wrong? That is why these methods don't work. Nobody is telling the dog what to do. It's a dog, so when it does something a dog does (say barking at something) it gets told off, how is it supposed to know not to act like a dog? Makes no sense to me, won't make sense to a dog.

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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:05 am

LmJanes wrote:Mattie,

I don't know how much do you have an experience with high drive malinois, and dutch shepherd. If you said you believe it is not needed, how can you get these dogs off the suit when called out? Eh? Oh yeah, you start with a tug and teach the out command, the dog understands of course. We have done it believe me..... When you are 20 feet away from the dog and expect him to out and he refuse. Now how do you get him to out? On a long leash and a prong collar? Or on a long leash and on a flat collar? Why do you think police handlers have e collar on their dogs? I think one clear hard correction with out affecting the dog is better than a thousand nagging corrections. I'm more than happy to give you Chipper and see what you can do with him. Good luck! It is not easy as you think it is.
How do the police in the UK teach their dogs, the are not allowed to use shock collars, their dogs are very well trainied.

I have a Malinois cross, she is a really easy dog to train, far easier than a JRT cross I had.

There are no need for corrections, if you need to use gadgets like a shock or prong collar the training isn't good enough.
I don't think you really understand when they are in a high drive and ignore a command. They are way over their heads with biting the suit and having too much fun don't want to out.. I have a maliniois who does french ring and he is pretty biddable. He will out when I asked him to on the field. I have seen some dogs will not out for their handlers... It gets to point where it be dangerous for the handler and decoy because the dog is too obsessed with the prize (sleeve or bite suite).
You don't know anything about me so how do you know if I understand or not? Try training a terrier, you can't teach them by using punishment, unlike GSDs, Malinois etc. Terriers think for themselves and will out think you if you use punishment of any sort.

If a dog is showning any signs of being dangerous then they shouldn't be doing the job they are for the safety of the public.
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Mattie
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Mattie » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:10 am

Those videos just show very badly trained dogs and are a danger to the public, the police in the UK's dogs don't behave like that, they do come off on command because they are well trained WITHOUT the shock collar.

I also suspect that it is the shock collar that makes these dogs so aggressive, shocking them when they are on the sleave the dog learns that they get hurt when they have the sleeve so it makes them more aggressive.

Apart for them abusing dogs, they are against this boards rules to recommend that which you are doing, it is ok to discuss them but not recommend them.
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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by Noobs » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:40 am

A friend of mine who takes her dog to the off leash park saw a woman use a shock/vibrating collar on her boxer. The boxer (pup) freaked out, didn't know what to do. He ran into traffic and got killed by a car.

It's just not advisable to recommend gadgets like that, especially to average dog owners like us who don't have the training ourselves to use it.

Plus it's against the policy of this board.

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Re: Vibrating Collars?

Post by LmJanes » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:56 pm

forkin14 wrote:LmJanes,

How do you know a shock collar wasn't used to train these dogs and then once it was off in these set-up situations, the dogs didn't respond? Maybe these dogs weren't trained enough before these "tests". Those videos don't back up your argument.

I don't know if it was used or not on these dogs. My point is that if they are on e collar all the time they will out no questions. A working dog is different from a pet dog because their drive is way too high.. I'm not talking about regular pet owners who use e collars, but working dogs who work close with the public. I guess I didn't make a point clear to some of you guys in here. I'm not a big advocate of e collar users; however, I believe they are needed sometimes in cases like the video above here. It could save somebody's life if a dog chose not to OUT. What do you want to do if a dog bit you and a police office kept yelling at his dog to out out out.. End up fighting with his dog? What do you say about that? And you end up going to the hospital with multiply stitches. Training is very important yes, but not all dogs will out 100%. I assure you that they train their dogs everyday because I know a few K9 officers who train their dogs everyday and their "out" is very important.

I don't know how familiar you are with french ring sport. There is a national competition being host every year and their rule is no e collar so lucky handlers with fortunate dogs will be able to out. Many times I have seen them put the e collar on their dogs if they were being use as dogs in white. I believe it is a safety matters.

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