I am honestly trying to figure this out, so please do not take offense to this.
I know that positive reinforcement is terrific. I love the way Victoria trains, and I support and use it. What I don't understand is how to properly correct a dog that is misbehaving without it being negative. Whatever you do to a dog to show them that you don't approve of the behavior will be perceived as negative. If you give a sharp "AH-AH" it is a negative thing, isn't it?
So what are some acceptable ways to correct your dog?
Positive Reinforcemet
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Victoria has explained that the "AH-AH" is a "vocal interrupter," and not a "punishment." There are some hardcore positive reinforcement trainers who wouldn't even use that, though.
Most of the folks here would say there are a couple of options to stopping a dog from unwanted behavior:
1) Distraction or redirection, ask him to do something else. I think I read on Patricia McConnell's blog, she called it asking for an "incompatible behavior." My dog was charging toward my friend once (wanting to say hi) and my friend simply said, "Sit!" and he did. When my dog hears noise outside and starts to bark, I call him into the kitchen for some obedience drills.
2) Ignoring behavior. When I play tug with my dog the second his teeth accidentally touch my skin, I say "ouch" in a monotone voice (I don't squeal because he gets worked up when I do that) and turn my back. A few times that I've done that he actually whipped around me and sat down in front of me.
Most of the folks here would say there are a couple of options to stopping a dog from unwanted behavior:
1) Distraction or redirection, ask him to do something else. I think I read on Patricia McConnell's blog, she called it asking for an "incompatible behavior." My dog was charging toward my friend once (wanting to say hi) and my friend simply said, "Sit!" and he did. When my dog hears noise outside and starts to bark, I call him into the kitchen for some obedience drills.
2) Ignoring behavior. When I play tug with my dog the second his teeth accidentally touch my skin, I say "ouch" in a monotone voice (I don't squeal because he gets worked up when I do that) and turn my back. A few times that I've done that he actually whipped around me and sat down in front of me.
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Why, what are you aiming to achieve, in showing a dog htat you dont 'approve' - if you mean you are demonstrating that the behaviour will not be rewarding, ie, will not 'work' thats fine..
If you mean you are in some way trying to convey that this behaviour displeases, upsets, is wrong... then its a bit pointless and likely to fail - dogs dont 'get' right and wrong. So forget about trying to teach them this. They get 'works' and 'doesnt work' or 'rewarding/not rewarding'.
Focus on that instead and in addition to the two points Noobs posted, add point 3/ Prevent them from making the mistake in the first place.
If you mean you are in some way trying to convey that this behaviour displeases, upsets, is wrong... then its a bit pointless and likely to fail - dogs dont 'get' right and wrong. So forget about trying to teach them this. They get 'works' and 'doesnt work' or 'rewarding/not rewarding'.
Focus on that instead and in addition to the two points Noobs posted, add point 3/ Prevent them from making the mistake in the first place.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Emma, I have tried to explain that to my partner L because last week Murphy chewed one of our pillows. I told her that he can tell that she's upset, but not that he did anything "wrong". She is insistent that putting the chewed up pillow on the floor in front of him and saying "no, bad" shows him that what he did was wrong. "He knows he chewed it" in other words. I figured he was stress-chewing and maybe heard our neighbors coming home from work or something because the routine changed that day - I was with him during the day and we left him in the evening.
Anyway yes, I forgot option 3, which is management.
Anyway yes, I forgot option 3, which is management.
-
Lady Krimson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 pm
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Well, I mean like when a dog pees in the house or if they start chewing on a piece of furniture. I want the dog to know that they should not do that, so that they don't do it again. My dog, Sadie, LOVES to get into the garbage. I would like to teach her not to try to get into the garbage. I want her to know that she shouldn't. How can I teach her that?
I know that Victoria has used unpleasant sound devices to stop dogs from getting into things when unsupervised. That is definitely negative because the dog associates the behavior with the unpleasant noise.
I know that Victoria has used unpleasant sound devices to stop dogs from getting into things when unsupervised. That is definitely negative because the dog associates the behavior with the unpleasant noise.
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
If I'm not mistaken Victoria doesn't use those methods anymore - I think you're talking about those alarms that go off when the dog opens the fridge, etc.
My dog liked to get into the garbage, too. This is Emmabeth's point about "what works" and "what doesn't work". It's no use teaching your dog that going into garbage is "wrong" because to you it means a mess but to her it means "Ooh, there's food in here!"
What I did was get one of those garbage cans that has a pedal that a human has to push in order for the top to open. Now my dog will sniff around but he can't get in so loses interest. If your dog is clever enough to knock it over, then put the can in the cabinet under the sink or somewhere unreachable.
Hope that helps.
My dog liked to get into the garbage, too. This is Emmabeth's point about "what works" and "what doesn't work". It's no use teaching your dog that going into garbage is "wrong" because to you it means a mess but to her it means "Ooh, there's food in here!"
What I did was get one of those garbage cans that has a pedal that a human has to push in order for the top to open. Now my dog will sniff around but he can't get in so loses interest. If your dog is clever enough to knock it over, then put the can in the cabinet under the sink or somewhere unreachable.
Hope that helps.
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
You cant teach a dog those things - not unless you frighten them.
Which series of IMOTD are you seeing Victoria use aversives?
The peeing, if its toiletting then you teach them where they can go, where it is safe and it is rewarding to go - prevent them from going anywhere else by good management, discourage by thorough cleaning so there is no smell to draw them back. If it is scent marking it can be anxiety based and so removing the cause of this and improving the dogs confidence in general as well as good management should fix that.
You will never teach a dog who likes garbage not to empty garbage cans if given free access to them. You may teach them not to do so when you are present in that room, by consistantly removing them, by using a leave command (I wouldnt because they know they can go do this when you are gone so it may weaken any leave command you have)... but once you are not there... no. You cant, and more so it is not fair or kind to attempt to do so.
Unwanted food left lying around (which is what a garbage can IS to a dog) is in dog 'law', there for the taking. Dogs eat when theres food and dont when there isnt, dogs do NOT 'store' food for later, except by guarding it physically the whole time. (And where they do this is usually as a result of an unnatural situation and a very stressed dog!). Dogs just dont think the way we do, as far as your dog is concerned, that garbage can there belongs to anyone who wants it, and if you arent present.. and she wants it.. its hers.
To attempt to teach her that this is not the case is to go against her very basic instincts as a scavenger, you may as well be attempting to teach her not to be furry or not to have a wet nose.
The simple answer is to put the garbage can where she cannot get it, or to get a garbage can that she cannot get into. THere are now some on the market (Simple Human is one brand) that are dog proof, though as yet I dont think they are marketed specifically as such, failing that, have a small one in a cupboard that either she cant get into or you can lock.
Then you take away temptation, you take away the chance of her making a mistake - problem solved.
There are things we must accept that we cannot teach dogs fairly or humanely, and we must manage those things. It is us who choose to share our lives with a dog, and on the whole dogs DO cope remarkably well with the bizarre and alien social niceities and rules we have but some things such as not taking tasty/stinky stuff left where they can get it, are just not reasonable expectations.
Which series of IMOTD are you seeing Victoria use aversives?
The peeing, if its toiletting then you teach them where they can go, where it is safe and it is rewarding to go - prevent them from going anywhere else by good management, discourage by thorough cleaning so there is no smell to draw them back. If it is scent marking it can be anxiety based and so removing the cause of this and improving the dogs confidence in general as well as good management should fix that.
You will never teach a dog who likes garbage not to empty garbage cans if given free access to them. You may teach them not to do so when you are present in that room, by consistantly removing them, by using a leave command (I wouldnt because they know they can go do this when you are gone so it may weaken any leave command you have)... but once you are not there... no. You cant, and more so it is not fair or kind to attempt to do so.
Unwanted food left lying around (which is what a garbage can IS to a dog) is in dog 'law', there for the taking. Dogs eat when theres food and dont when there isnt, dogs do NOT 'store' food for later, except by guarding it physically the whole time. (And where they do this is usually as a result of an unnatural situation and a very stressed dog!). Dogs just dont think the way we do, as far as your dog is concerned, that garbage can there belongs to anyone who wants it, and if you arent present.. and she wants it.. its hers.
To attempt to teach her that this is not the case is to go against her very basic instincts as a scavenger, you may as well be attempting to teach her not to be furry or not to have a wet nose.
The simple answer is to put the garbage can where she cannot get it, or to get a garbage can that she cannot get into. THere are now some on the market (Simple Human is one brand) that are dog proof, though as yet I dont think they are marketed specifically as such, failing that, have a small one in a cupboard that either she cant get into or you can lock.
Then you take away temptation, you take away the chance of her making a mistake - problem solved.
There are things we must accept that we cannot teach dogs fairly or humanely, and we must manage those things. It is us who choose to share our lives with a dog, and on the whole dogs DO cope remarkably well with the bizarre and alien social niceities and rules we have but some things such as not taking tasty/stinky stuff left where they can get it, are just not reasonable expectations.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
-
Lady Krimson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 pm
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Yep, my dog is clever enough to nose it open and even figured out how to step on the lever to open the lid. She is THAT smart.Noobs wrote: What I did was get one of those garbage cans that has a pedal that a human has to push in order for the top to open. Now my dog will sniff around but he can't get in so loses interest. If your dog is clever enough to knock it over, then put the can in the cabinet under the sink or somewhere unreachable.
Hope that helps.
She doesn't get into food. She likes to get into the garbage to grab paper towels and tissues so she can shred them. She LOVES to shred. She has dozens of toys to play with, my other dog to play with, ME to play with...but she keeps going for tissues and paper towels! I have all the baskets with lids that lock, but she gets into them. If I leave the room to go to the bathroom, she will be shredding a tissue when I come out.
I understand that they must be managed, but I can't keep my eyes on her 100% of the time. Any suggestions?
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
I'm sure if Murphy was tall enough he'd be able to push the pedal and go into the top of the can at the same time. But thankfully he's too short! 
It's funny, dogs are great at training us to keep a really neat house!
My dog will go in our closet and grab tissues out of the garbage can, too. So when we leave the house the garbage can goes on top of our nightstand and out of his reach. He would take tissues out of the tissue box whenever we left the room. Solution is to keep the tissues on a high shelf. Sorry, but if shredding is fun for her, then you can't teach her to leave the tissues alone - you have to keep them out of reach. That's what management is - not just you stopping her when you're around, but keeping her from getting to stuff in the first place when you're not around.
Honestly, I hated the idea at first but my apartment is completely different now that we have Murphy. Remote controls are kept on top of the TV instead of the coffee table when we're not in the room. Our cell phones are kept on higher tables if we leave the room. Every time we leave the house - or exit a room for that matter, even for a few minutes - things get taken up. You have to dog-proof your house just as you would babyproof when you have a baby.
If she would rather have tissues than her toys, then get used newspaper, open up all the pages, let her go to town. Sure you have to clean up afterwards but at least it's newspaper and not tissues or paper towels.
You have to set YOURSELF up for success by thinking of it differently - instead of "don't do this", think of it as "do what you like but with THIS stuff instead of my stuff."
It's funny, dogs are great at training us to keep a really neat house!
My dog will go in our closet and grab tissues out of the garbage can, too. So when we leave the house the garbage can goes on top of our nightstand and out of his reach. He would take tissues out of the tissue box whenever we left the room. Solution is to keep the tissues on a high shelf. Sorry, but if shredding is fun for her, then you can't teach her to leave the tissues alone - you have to keep them out of reach. That's what management is - not just you stopping her when you're around, but keeping her from getting to stuff in the first place when you're not around.
Honestly, I hated the idea at first but my apartment is completely different now that we have Murphy. Remote controls are kept on top of the TV instead of the coffee table when we're not in the room. Our cell phones are kept on higher tables if we leave the room. Every time we leave the house - or exit a room for that matter, even for a few minutes - things get taken up. You have to dog-proof your house just as you would babyproof when you have a baby.
If she would rather have tissues than her toys, then get used newspaper, open up all the pages, let her go to town. Sure you have to clean up afterwards but at least it's newspaper and not tissues or paper towels.
You have to set YOURSELF up for success by thinking of it differently - instead of "don't do this", think of it as "do what you like but with THIS stuff instead of my stuff."
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
Sometimes a dog is shouting at the top of its voice and we still don't listen
Your dog is telling you that shredding is the best fun ever. So give her safe things to shred. cardboard boxes (no staples) old newspapers, anything "shreddy" and let her shred it. Happy fulfilled dog.
Sure it makes a mess, but that's part of dog ownership. Children make a mess too. And as for husbands and partners......
Your dog is telling you that shredding is the best fun ever. So give her safe things to shred. cardboard boxes (no staples) old newspapers, anything "shreddy" and let her shred it. Happy fulfilled dog.
Sure it makes a mess, but that's part of dog ownership. Children make a mess too. And as for husbands and partners......
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Positive Reinforcemet
I give Rupert safe stuff to shred and quite often join in with him He'll still shred any tissue he gets hold of but I don't really see it as a problem, I just tell him he's a brat and pick it up. Yeah, it makes a mess but it's worth it to see his eyes light up when I hand him a piece of paper or the cardboard tube from a toilet roll.
I used to have to do what Noobs does and dog proof a room any time I left it or make sure Rupe came with me but he's fairly trustworthy now. Still crated if he's going to be alone for more than half an hour and I still make sure any books or important papers are well out of his way before leaving him loose when I go out but I can go and make a cup of tea without having to pack things away now. I think he's been redirected to his toys and chews so often that he's learned it's more rewarding to chew those than the sofa or the doors. I've always just used a sharp "Ah!" and handed him a toy instead.
He'll still shred any tissue he gets hold of but I don't really see it as a problem, I just tell him he's a brat and pick it up. Yeah, it makes a mess but it's worth it to see his eyes light up when I hand him a piece of paper or the cardboard tube from a toilet roll. I used to have to do what Noobs does and dog proof a room any time I left it or make sure Rupe came with me but he's fairly trustworthy now. Still crated if he's going to be alone for more than half an hour and I still make sure any books or important papers are well out of his way before leaving him loose when I go out but I can go and make a cup of tea without having to pack things away now. I think he's been redirected to his toys and chews so often that he's learned it's more rewarding to chew those than the sofa or the doors. I've always just used a sharp "Ah!" and handed him a toy instead.
