ShakeTrainer

[missyirene]

Has anyone tried the ShakeTrainer (http://www.shaketrainer.com)? I'm curious to try it ... I have a miniature schnauzer I'm trying to train to quit barking when I say quiet.

[Noobs]

Looks like the equivalent of putting a bunch of pennies in a soda can. I tried something like that with my dog and now he's afraid of loud noises.

Is there an excessive barking problem? What causes it? A trigger (sounds of cars in the street), boredom (underexercised)?

What happens if your dog barks and you're not there to shake the shaketrainer?

[emmabeth]

This is an aversive device - it works by at BEST distracting your dog which you can do with your voice for free. At worst it creates fear, and of course you wont know which it does with your dog until you try it.

Dogs can leap VERY quickly from 'ooh thats not nice' to 'I have a total phobia of anything and everything linked to this sound' and again you are unlikely to know if this is goingto happen with your dog until you use something this and it happens.

THat aside, this relies on you training by allowing the unwanted behaviour to occur and then punishing it.

Its far better to prevent the unwanted behaviour from occurring in the first place, and training an alternative, wanted behaviour for the dog to do in that particular situation.

So dog jumps up? Prevent it - (leash!) Teach doggy to sit to greet people.

No need to scare and frighten any dogs at all, and no need to line the pockets of people selling what is effectively, a soda can with pennies in it.

[Chocolate_Monty]

This worked really well for me and my lab pup. He was HORRENDOUS for scavenging when he was younger - dead rabbits and poo were a delicacy and I was paranoid he was picking up all kinds of bacteria after a few bouts of a runny tummy.

I read this in my RSPCA training book so just put some small stones in an empty plastic juice bottle and carried it in my pocket. When he picked something up i shook it and if that didnt work, flung the bottle at him instructing him to drop it. Previously Monty would have scoffed what he had as quick as he could then run away refusing to come back for fear of a row, but with this technique overnight I had success! He was that shocked by the bottle coming his way he dropped what he had and came back to me for praise (which he got!!).

Monty can have 'selective' hearing when we're out so sometimes a shake of the bottle is a good way to recall him rather than endlessly shout MONTY down the track and he reacts very positively and happily.

I would only recommend this on a confident dog though. A nervous animal would only become scared of that and any related loud noise.

[Noobs]

Sorry but on this forum it's against rules to suggest that to anyone.

[Mattie]

This worked really well for me and my lab pup. He was HORRENDOUS for scavenging when he was younger - dead rabbits and poo were a delicacy and I was paranoid he was picking up all kinds of bacteria after a few bouts of a runny tummy.

Dogs are scavengers, he was just being a dog/pup, it is something they all do at times but it looks like you made a big deal of it so taught him that it was worth doing.

I read this in my RSPCA training book so just put some small stones in an empty plastic juice bottle and carried it in my pocket. When he picked something up i shook it and if that didnt work, flung the bottle at him instructing him to drop it. Previously Monty would have scoffed what he had as quick as he could then run away refusing to come back for fear of a row, but with this technique overnight I had success! He was that shocked by the bottle coming his way he dropped what he had and came back to me for praise (which he got!!).

That is abuse, it is one thing to rattle the stones but throwing them at the dog is abuse, I doubt that the RSPCA would recommend that. You could have made your dog very noise sensitive, maybe he is but to frighten a dog to this extent is abuse and you should never use it.

As I said higher up you had made a big deal of your dog scavenging, it is your fault that he would scoff it as quickly as he could then run off. I am disgusted that you had your dog so frightened of you that he was to frightened to come back to you. I took on a dog that had been trained in a similar way, I hope I never see the fear and terror in another dog’s eyes that I used to see in his.

Training a dog isn’t about overnight successes, it is the process of teaching a dog what we want by setting them up to succeed, the strong bond that you get by doing this and the love that the dog gives.

Monty can have 'selective' hearing when we're out so sometimes a shake of the bottle is a good way to recall him rather than endlessly shout MONTY down the track and he reacts very positively and happily.

How would you feel if you were taught to read by someone shaking a bottle at you every time you got it wrong then throw the bottle at you? Would this teach you to read? Would it teach you to understand what you were reading? Would it teach you why you need to read?

What you are telling owners to do is abuse and not acceptable on this board, if you can’t learn to teach a dog properly then you have no place here. You are welcome to stay and learn how to teach your dog in a kind, positive way, not only will your dog be transformed but you will have a much better relationship with him and a much stronger bond.

Get rid of that rattle bottle, frightening any animal or human is not the way to teach.

[Chocolate_Monty]

Mattie and Noobs

You both seem to do nothing but preach on this website. I have followed a couple of other threads and it doesnt seem to just be me who has fallen victim to your cutting remarks and overbearing attitude.

I take great offence at this. My dog is NOT scared of me, nor is learning through fear. I followed the RSPCA book's advice as i dont think a dog should be eating rancid flesh or other dog poo and have the runs for over a month because of this. He reacted positively to noise and now knows not to touch.

He is a labrador - a breed commonly used as a gun dog so lets just be a little bit realistic about noise training.

I have taken a lot of advice from my next door neighbour who is a dog handler in the police force and has 2 dogs in his kennel.

I am leaving this forum. I adore Victoria's shows and fully support her training but for the likes of people like you, I cannot tollerate this.

I appeal to the people running this website forum to watch these two users.

[Noobs]

If you really did follow other threads you'd know that I have a fearful dog who, among other things, is now sensitive to noise, and one of the reasons is that I myself tried pennies in a soda can to get him to stop digging in our garbage can. I solved it by getting a garbage can with a pedal that a human has to step on to open. Problem solved but too late, he's already noise-sensitive. He jumps on the street at cars going by or kids on skateboards and I blame myself for it. I didn't appreciate your cavalier attitude about throwing the can at your dog. All I said to you was it was against forum rules to suggest that method to anyone. So sorry if I bruised your ego.

But I don't care if you don't like me or don't like when I object to someone breaking the forum rules by suggesting an aversive method. I'm always going to speak up so that other users don't see harmful advice and follow it. As long as I can send the message to other users that I have used aversive methods and they made my dog more fearful, and hopefully point them to a better direction, then I could give a tiny rat's heiny what you think of me.

Sorry in advance to the mods.

[Mattie]

I worked for the RSPCA for quite a few years and am very surprised that they recommend a shake bottle to correct a dog, it is against everything they are working for and know that it is against their rules to use aversions like that because they are abuse.

Pussy footing around doesn't help the dogs which is why we are here, most owners think that when we pussy foot around they can either take the advice or leave it but when it comes to things like a shake bottle, we owe it to the dogs to be very clear on what these do to the dogs and how they are abused.

Our duty is to the dogs not the owners, the owners can speak up for themselves if someone does something that hurts or frightens them, the dogs can't unless they bite, then they are pts for being aggressive so the dogs then pay with their lives.

Personally, from the police dog handers I have seen, I wouldn't let them near my dogs because of their methods, thankfully things are a lot better now but there is still a lot of room for improvement.

We put the dogs first, not the owners.

[Sarah83]

He is a labrador - a breed commonly used as a gun dog so lets just be a little bit realistic about noise training.

Doesn't always mean anything. Mine doesn't bat an eyelid at thunder, fireworks or guns going off close by but will cower if an empty can is dropped on the kitchen floor.

As for throwing a bottle full of stones at your dog, sorry but that's out of order imo and I've never seen or heard it recommended.

[wvvdiup1]

Any device such as the Shake Trainer that a company, vet, dog trainers (some don't use positive reinforcement methods), and the like claims it will help train a dog in a short period of time isn't taking into the consideration that the use of these devices actually damages a dog mentally, emotionally, and physically. Positive reinforce training, like other training methods, may take time, however, positive reinforce training is worth it because it doesn't mentally, emotionally, and physically damage or scar a dog. Furthermore, dogs trained by positive reinforce training will not only obey but trust their owners, not do something because they fear their owners.

The job we have been entrusted on these forums is not only help the dog, but the owner too by using positive reinforced training. In order to do this, we must educate others in positive reinforce training to help and advised through instruction, unless we live near the dog owner, then we can show them how.

[Mattie]

The shaker bottle became popular from the program Dog Borstal, some of the trainers there used it but they knew how to use it properly and taught the owners how to use it properly, it is like the discs, an interupter. None of these trainers told the owners to thow the bottle at the dog, the were to throw the bottle on the floor. Discs should not be thrown at the dog either, in fact it isn't the owner who uses the discs but the trainer.

I take great offence at this. My dog is NOT scared of me, nor is learning through fear. I followed the RSPCA book's advice as i dont think a dog should be eating rancid flesh or other dog poo and have the runs for over a month because of this. He reacted positively to noise and now knows not to touch.

Your dog has learnt through fear and I know that the RSPCA would never sanction throwning a rattle bottle at any dog so you are not going by the RSPCA's advice, don't believe me, ask any Inspector. I worked with them more than long enough to know how they feel about them.

It is normal dog behaviour to eat rancid flesh, they are scanvengers, for both the rancid flesh and poo, train your dog to have a good "Leave", it is what we do and don't have any problems getting our dogs to leave what we don't want them to have and we didn't resort to frightening the dog not to eat them.

Just because Labradors are greedy doesn't mean they can't be taught a good "Leave", they wouldn't be any good as Guide Dogs if they couldn't be trained to ignore things like that.

This board is for positive training, things like rattle bottles are not to be recommended so by recommending one you went against the board rules. This board does allow these types of training tools to be discussed so people can learn how they work and why they are shouldn'd be used, many positive training boards don't allow this.

Not only you read these posts but others do, many never put a post up but do read them, when we reply to posts we have to take this into account and make it very clear that this type of gadget is not allowed with positive training.

Chocolate_Monty, everyone makes mistakes, we all have and used methods in the past that we are horrified at now, we just make sure that we never use them again.

[Leigha]

I <3 Mattie!!!

[Chocolate_Monty]

Ok guys fair enough, I take your point and I'm sorry for any offence taken.

I merely replied to a post from someone asking if anyone had tried shaker training and thought i was helping saying I had.
.
The book I followed was written by Dr Bruce Fogle MRCVS and published by the RSPCA. Quote "Dogs intuitively respond to sound and movement. A plastic bottle with stones inside can provide an ideal distraction from an unwanted situation. Carry the bottle with you and throw it down when your dog eyes a "treasure". When your dog is distracted by the sound of the bottle, unwanted behaviour will be interrupted."

They then go on to explain the come command, praise etc. Can I just point out this is the EXACT procedure I followed, I did not throw the bottle at the dog hitting him with it or anything cruel like that, hence my offence and consequent upset yesterday.

I am new to this internet forum and joined thinking I would enjoy sharing training tips for my boisterous bundle of fun Monty (aka Marley if you've seen the film/book). He is a very lovable confident Lab and has had no adverse side affects from the bottle training. I only did this when he was going through a scavenging phase and now dont take it out on our walks as he responds to voice commands only.

I too had a nervous rescue dog from Battersea prior to Monty and so am fully aware how the 2 different personalities require different POSITIVE attitudes. I also worked for a vet for a number of years.

I am sorry this became such a torrent of abuse and for that reason I'll leave the website to those that enjoy this kind of thing, its not for me.

[Mattie]

Chocolate_Monty, thank you for coming back and explaining, thankfully dog training has come a long way since that book was written. I watched one of the early episodes of "It's me or the dog" the other day and couldn't believe what Victoria was telling the owners, everyone continues to learn and change our ideas.

You aren't the first member to start like this, won't be the last either because most people don't understand positive training, stay with us, ask as many questions as you want, we can also learn from you, the learning isn't one way it is 2, we learn from each others experiences.

It may look like we attack people, we don't, we do attack posts with bad information in, we have to for the sake of others who read them. Doesn't mean that we can't get on, I have quite a few very good friends on here who started the same way you did.