Don Sullivan's command collar

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robynnlee
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Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by robynnlee »

:?: Does this command collar which supposedly mimics the way a mother dog disciplines her pups use a training method based on dominance? Is it a good training method? Has anyone tried Don Sullivan's technique? I have a 9 month old golden retriever mix that is very hard to train. There are no trainers in our area and he gets car sick even on short rides to the vet. This is a large dog and I need to find something that he'll respond to. His mouthing and jumping is out of control and I am worried that my 3 children may get hurt one of these days. He is a sweet dog- never displayed any mean tendencies. He's just an energetic puppy in a large dog body. Any suggestions?
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

No matter what we design or use, we can never mimic what a mother dog does because we are not dogs. These are just gimics and won't work unless you also train your dog.

To be fair I haven't seen this collar and don't know what it is, but on past experience on many gadgets that trainers have brought out, they don't work.

The best method I have found is clicker training, there is a thread on it in Methods, it is well worth a read then ask as many questions as you want and we will give you as much help as we can.
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horsefreak88
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Post by horsefreak88 »

Upon reading your post I had not heard of the command collar before, but after a quick search online it looks like some sort of prong collar. I have personally had a VERY bad experience using a prong collar per the recommendation of the trainer we were using at the time. You may "get away" with it with many dogs, but on the other hand it could seriously backfire as it did with my GSD, Annie. People will try to convince you that it mimics a mother dog, or that it really doesn't hurt ("she's just frusturated" is what I was told). Please do not buy into this.

It's quite ironic...as a horseback riding instructor I always ask my students "how would you feel if somebody did THAT to YOU?" If only I had placed a little more trust in my own instincts and my own advice instead of trying to convince myself "they're the trainers, they MUST know best." Instead, take a moment to look at the device and ask yourself, "Would I want that thing on MY neck?"

Stick with this forum and you'll find all the help you need...I'm just learning myself. In the short time I've been hanging around here, Annie's confidence has improved by leaps and bounds and continues to grow by the day :)
robynnlee
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Thanks

Post by robynnlee »

thank you for the information. It did seem to good to be true. I am going to read up on the clicker training and alternative harnesses. I appreciate your quick responses!
toddly
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by toddly »

I appreciate the discussion, but the physical aspects of the collar in question are not the central issue to me. The theory behind using this collar gimmick is to demonstrate to the dog that you are the leader of the pack. Typically, establishing dominance in a pack is violent and bloody business, but at the end of it, one dog emerges as dominant and the others accept it. I don't believe they hold grudges, as that would not be conducive to a harmoniously functioning pack. So, given this background, the collar --which is promoted as a very temporary training collar-- doesn't sound all that bad. I do worry that if someone tries to use it in a half-assed sort of way, that one could hurt the dog without convincing the dog that you're the leader; then you're simply a cruel bastard that hurt the dog who is still dominant and now feels that you need to be shown your place using the same physical approach you used to challenge the canine leader.
I confess, a dog who believes he rules the roost is difficult. Our labradoodle has jumped our 4.5-foot fence three times to attack passing dogs. Each time I've been in the yard and was able to get him back inside, but it is worrisome. Everything I've read says that territorial aggression is about a dominant "will to Power" over "will to Serve". I am here hoping to turn our guy around, but I realize that as long as he thinks he runs the show, it is an uphill battle. Any advice would be appreciated greatly.
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Toddly, if someone offers a device that will help your dog and it seems like a "torture device", don't buy into it! Chances are, these devices will harm your dog a lot more than help it!
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Mattie
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by Mattie »

Toddly, if I sound harsh it is because I have had very little sleep the last 2 nights because I am looking after a very sick dog, it isn't my intention to be harsh.
toddly wrote:I appreciate the discussion, but the physical aspects of the collar in question are not the central issue to me. The theory behind using this collar gimmick is to demonstrate to the dog that you are the leader of the pack.
I am not a dog and not a member of a pack of dogs, a pack of dogs is mum, dad and siblings, just like a human family. The older siblings help take care of the young ones until they are reaching maturity when they are kicked out.

As I am not a dog I cannot be the leader of the pack, this research is also flawed, it was done on a captive pack of wolves not a wild pack, captive wolves behave differently than wild ones. As I said previously a pack is mum, dad and siblings, this is the same for both dogs and wolves. I have 4 dogs, they are not a pack because they are not a family, all different shapes, sizes and breeds, I have a group of dogs living in harmony just as many wolves do in captivity. As I am not a dog I can't speak dog and can't act like a dog.
Typically, establishing dominance in a pack is violent and bloody business, but at the end of it, one dog emerges as dominant and the others accept it. I don't believe they hold grudges, as that would not be conducive to a harmoniously functioning pack.
You do get adult dogs wanting to take over a *****, similar to the way lions and other cats work, that can be bloody but in a pack this doesn't happen. They are fighting for breeding rites not to dominate the pack. A true leader never dominates, they don't need to, they control things without dominating, in fact it is a very poor leader who tries to dominate. Think of a boss who can't do his job properly, he bullies the staff under him because he wants to "Dominate" them. Everyone is unhappy there.
So, given this background, the collar --which is promoted as a very temporary training collar-- doesn't sound all that bad. I do worry that if someone tries to use it in a half-assed sort of way, that one could hurt the dog without convincing the dog that you're the leader; then you're simply a cruel ******* that hurt the dog who is still dominant and now feels that you need to be shown your place using the same physical approach you used to challenge the canine leader.
If you take a good look at what is called dominance, you will see it is really bullying, forcing a dog to do what we want them to not matter what, would you take that from someone else? I wouldn't I have worked for people like this, everyone was unhappy including him.

Often in the name of dominance aggression is used, ie alpha roll, the owner is using aggression and saying that they are dominating their dog to show that they are the boss/leader etc. When you use aggression to solve a problem, you will get aggression back but stronger. Think about someone walking up to you and hits you across the face, what will your reaction be? Most people would hit back much harder. It then escaltes into a full blown fight. If you turned and walked away instead, no fight and the person who hit you stands there looking stupid.

There is no excuse for using that type of gadget on any animal, they are unnecessary and many are cruel.

I confess, a dog who believes he rules the roost is difficult. Our labradoodle has jumped our 4.5-foot fence three times to attack passing dogs.
Your Labradoodle isn't jumping the fence to protect his property, he is protecting himself, your fence is far too low for a Labradoodle, it should be a minimum of 6ft. If I was doing a homecheck for your dog you would fail on the height of your fence.
Each time I've been in the yard and was able to get him back inside, but it is worrisome. Everything I've read says that territorial aggression is about a dominant "will to Power" over "will to Serve". I am here hoping to turn our guy around, but I realize that as long as he thinks he runs the show, it is an uphill battle. Any advice would be appreciated greatly.
You have been reading the wrong things, people who know very little about dogs put labels on their behaviour to make themselves look as if they know what they are doing, we see a lot of that on here.

You can train a dog to do a lot of things but you can't train them if you are not there, you may be able to train him not to jump the fence when you are there but if you are not he will continue to jump it. This will be a lot more dangerous because you can't do anything about it. Some problems have to be managed so your dog can't do this, you need to raise the fence. This needn't be expensive, stock fencing on top of the fence you have will do it especially if you slope the top 18ins into your garden, this will make it a lot more diffifcult for your dog to jump.

The first think you need to do is change your thinking, you need to help your dog understand what you want by setting him up to do it. You don't want him to jump the fence then make sure he can't, dogs will only do what works, at the moment he is self rewarding himself when he jumps the fence, nothing you do will have a high a reward as he is giving himself so you need to raise the fence. Been their, done that and worn the tee shirt out. :lol:

I have 2 dogs that can be classed as dominant, Bonnie I have had for 5 years, she is a very confident dog, always has been even when she was in the rescue, she isn't dominant she is confident, put good, solid boundaries in place and she is a very happy dog that knows what is expected of her. Without those boundaries she tries to find them which is what is happening with dogs that are classed as dominant, they are trying to find their boundaries.

Dolly is a new dog, she is even more confident that Bonnie, she was very stressed at first but now she is getting to know her boundaries she is relaxed and happy. She will open doors and my caravan windows, I have had to chain the windows down so she can't open them, she will stop trying because dogs only do what works, by chaining the windows down it is no longer working so she will stop. When I first chained them down she started to try harder, what used to work no longer worked, being a dog I can't tell her why she has to find out herself. By trying harder she thought she would be able to open them. She will stop trying eventually.

I hope this makes sense, there are a lot of posts on dominance on here, do a search for them, they are very interesting reading.
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emumbert1
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by emumbert1 »

I've never heard of a device that mimics Mom. The only area I can think of to mimic mom is by removing a very young puppy from one area to another by picking it up by the nape of the neck. Not in a mean spirited way, but kind of like a time out.

My advice is to purchase a basic training video as soon as you can, and work with your 7 month old every day, without fail. First, I would establish sit and stay. If you can get that going, you're going to be alpha. Don't wait another minute, though. You are the boss and treats are the best training aid.

Just my opinion. If you stay in this forum, you'll do fine. Also, go to YouTube and search dog training for videos. It's hard to tell a person what to do, but if they can see it...they can do it!

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forkin14
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by forkin14 »

emumbert1 wrote:I've never heard of a device that mimics Mom. The only area I can think of to mimic mom is by removing a very young puppy from one area to another by picking it up by the nape of the neck. Not in a mean spirited way, but kind of like a time out.
Hmm.. can a person really MIMIC the way a momma dog picks up a pup by it's scruff CORRECTLY (or anything the momma dog does actually), in a way that is not causing pain to the pup? If you need to pick up the puppy and put it somewhere else, just pick it up normally, reducing the risk of injury and any nips the pup might throw your way for picking it up by the scruff wrong.. It'll still understand the message of "removal". think about it this way; the momma dog by natural instinct knows exactly where to pick the puppy up from and how much pressure to use. We as humans do not. We may think we're doing it correctly but could end up being waaay off.
emumbert1 wrote:My advice is to purchase a basic training video as soon as you can, and work with your 7 month old every day, without fail. First, I would establish sit and stay. If you can get that going, you're going to be alpha. Don't wait another minute, though. You are the boss and treats are the best training aid.
Instead of purchasing any basic training video right away, do research on what methods you want to use. You came here to this forum so I hope you want to use positive reinforcement only. If so, no "alpha" talk. Yes you are the boss, but in a gentle leader way, not a dictatorship way that the words "alpha" and "boss" usually mean. Treats also may not be the BEST training aid for your dog, figure out what it likes best, it could be a toy instead of treats, or even praise.
emumbert1 wrote:Just my opinion. If you stay in this forum, you'll do fine. Also, go to YouTube and search dog training for videos. It's hard to tell a person what to do, but if they can see it...they can do it!
I agree, stay on here and you'll get amazing advice :D If you choose to YouTube, make sure you only look for videos from users who use positive reinforcement.

Look around on this forum for names of trainers that do only use positive reinforcement, and if you can't find any, just ask :D It is difficult, especially for first time dog owners, to know reputable trainers that use safe and effective methods.
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forkin14
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by forkin14 »

Also, anyone who comes to read this topic since it's newer, here is the link to a previous discussion on this "trainer"...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6817&p=45206&hilit= ... van#p45206
toddly
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by toddly »

Mattie,
I hope your sick dog is doing better, and thank you for your thoughtful advice. Unfortunately, I don't think your advice applies to my situation. We can only write about what we know, and it appears to me that you don't understand my circumstance. My dog is not jumping our fence because he is scared or fearful in any way. He does it more because his personality toward other dogs tends to be that of a bully. The real question is why is he that way, and what can be done about it. I have been working on this for the past six months and continually feel that nobody has really addressed my situation; none of the books, videos or blogs.

The problem isn't going to be resolved by making the fence higher. The real issue is why does he feel the need to chase dogs down the block and attack them mercilessly. Why does he want to attack other dogs we pass walking , aon the sidewalk within a mile of our house? My hunch is that he is awkward and doesn't really understand how to interact with other dogs. Typically, he doesn't seem interested in them, and they are always more interested in him than he is in them. He has about half a dozen girlfriends at the park who he takes for granted and never gives them the time of day. Still, they like him. He doesn't seem to know how to play with other dogs, or for some reason opts not to.

I wonder whether his aggression might represent some level of frustration that he feels, in not knowing how to play or interact, and in not feeling adequately stimulated. He would love for another dog to chase him or play tug-o-war with him, but he is clueless how to initiate such interaction. Instead, all he can do is bark. Consequently, I worry that he doesn't get enough stimulation, which might be one main reason why he seeks conflict. After reading one particular post on this website, I've figured that while he is not food-oriented, toy-oriented or praise-oriented, he is play (chase, tug-o-war, wrestle) oriented. Now, when I can get him to stop barking at passing dogs, I reward him with five minutes of chase. Increasingly I suspect that he may benefit from a brother or sister who might be able to help him socialize and help him learn to play.

I'd appreciate any thoughts.
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Nettle
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by Nettle »

Purely and simply, he is being a dog: dogs like to roam and if they can get out, they will. That's why your dog, my dogs, all the dogs you meet "feel the need" and you can't take away the need because it is as much a part of them as paws and fur. The best trainer in the world can't train a dog out of being a dog.

Therefore a higher fence, preferably with an overhang so he (any) dog can't scrabble up and over, WILL solve the problem once and for all.


This is why we here bang on about dogs being exercised - it's the nearest we can give them to fulfilling the need to roam.

Your dog (any dog) will not see a second dog as a brother or sister but as a rival. You (generic "you") then risk one of two outcomes - both of them will escape, and two dogs roam far further and get into far more trouble than one, or they will dislike each other and you will have to work more than twice as hard to live in a peaceful (armed truce) environment.


As for "play" that's a human concept. Have a look at the pinned thread "He only wants to play" and you'll get a better idea of that. For some reason we humans get fixated on dogs having "friends" and "playing" but that is not at all important to most dogs, and downright unappealing to many.

We live more happily with them, and they live more happily with us when we acknowledge that above and beyond all, they are dogs - not people, cartoon characters, fuzzy toys, whatever - but dogs.
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Mattie
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by Mattie »

toddly wrote:Mattie,
I hope your sick dog is doing better, and thank you for your thoughtful advice. Unfortunately, I don't think your advice applies to my situation. We can only write about what we know, and it appears to me that you don't understand my circumstance. My dog is not jumping our fence because he is scared or fearful in any way. He does it more because his personality toward other dogs tends to be that of a bully. The real question is why is he that way, and what can be done about it. I have been working on this for the past six months and continually feel that nobody has really addressed my situation; none of the books, videos or blogs.
Yes thank you, Ellie is doing a lot better and apart from the wound healing she is back to her normal self and is sitting behind me at the moment, I am still short of sleep though :lol:

I and everyone here can only go on what you tell us, we don't know you and can't see what is happening, the reason why your dog is jumping out doesn't matter in the context of keeping him in, that needs to be addressed first, you need to make sure your dog CAN'T jump out. I have had dogs that jump out, I have one now, preventing her from jumping out means that she is safe, any other dog is safe, and I have peace of mind. Prevent him from jumping out and he can't bully other dogs.
The problem isn't going to be resolved by making the fence higher. The real issue is why does he feel the need to chase dogs down the block and attack them mercilessly. Why does he want to attack other dogs we pass walking , aon the sidewalk within a mile of our house? My hunch is that he is awkward and doesn't really understand how to interact with other dogs. Typically, he doesn't seem interested in them, and they are always more interested in him than he is in them. He has about half a dozen girlfriends at the park who he takes for granted and never gives them the time of day. Still, they like him. He doesn't seem to know how to play with other dogs, or for some reason opts not to.
The problem won't go away but if he can't jump out he will eventually stop trying, I know this from experience and not from books.

Who knows why he wants to do this, I had a dog that thought it was funny to frighten people, she had quite a reputation for this but if the person told her to go away, she would turn round and walk away looking very disappointed. :lol: This problem was solved by her not being able to get out.

Another had learnt that if she wanted exercise she had to jump out and get it herself, she was only 19ins high and could jump a fence 6ft 7ins high, even after a really good off lead run with other dogs she would come home and jump the fence. By making the fence higher so she couldn't jump out it solved the problem.

Dolly likes to visit the dog next door, thankfully their garden is secure, I raised the fence, Dolly can't go and visit now, several weeks later she has stopped trying.

Many problems can be solved by good, consistant management, we don't have to train everything out of our dogs, to me that is far too much hard work when good management will do the job much better because once it is in place, the dog never gets to do the behaviour we don't want, in this case jump out.
I wonder whether his aggression might represent some level of frustration that he feels, in not knowing how to play or interact, and in not feeling adequately stimulated. He would love for another dog to chase him or play tug-o-war with him, but he is clueless how to initiate such interaction. Instead, all he can do is bark. Consequently, I worry that he doesn't get enough stimulation, which might be one main reason why he seeks conflict. After reading one particular post on this website, I've figured that while he is not food-oriented, toy-oriented or praise-oriented, he is play (chase, tug-o-war, wrestle) oriented. Now, when I can get him to stop barking at passing dogs, I reward him with five minutes of chase. Increasingly I suspect that he may benefit from a brother or sister who might be able to help him socialize and help him learn to play.
When I take on a new dog, apart from Dolly they have all come with behaviour problems caused by other people, I don't try and work out why, I first put in good management when I can, that seems to give a dog a lot more security, they learn the house rules quickly without any stress and learn what is expected of them. This doesn't solve the behaviour problems but it does give a clearer picture of why my new dog is like that because the dog, like me is more relaxed. Ellie isn't interested in playing with other dogs but loves to play with people,

There are other things you can do to stimulate your dog, teach him to help you by fetching named articles like the tv remote, pick up what you drop, etc, training, especially clicker training really stimulates dogs. I make my own raggers out of old clothes, fleece and denim are very good for this, nice and strong. Cut the old clothes into strips, if you cut on the diagonal it will give alonger strip, tie a knot in one end and plait or brad the strips, tie a knot in the end and you have a very cheap toy for your dog.

Trying to work out the Why is wasting valuable training time, by the time you have worked out why, if you ever do most times you don't, the unwanted behaviour is being more and more established in the dog and will be harder and take longer to stop, by putting in good management first you are stopping the dog from doing this which will make it easier to solve. I hope that makes sense.

The reason why your dog is doing this is because he is a dog doing what dogs do, that doesn't mean we have to accept this we don't. Some dogs are very timid, others nervous, others confident most are somewhere in between including bullies.

Have a look at the clips in viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959 they are from a lecture given by Jean Donaldson on a dog's body language, it may help you understand your dog better. Their body language is facinating and helps us help them. You may find a lot of interesting articles in that section.
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toddly
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by toddly »

Nettle,
Wow, I don't know that I've ever heard such a negative reply in my life, not even about Obama on a Tea Party website. But you're right:

There is no way that two dogs can ever live together happily; they will always be enemies.

And dogs don't want to play; and my dog doesn't really want to play, he just wants me to leave him alone.

After all, dogs are dogs. Brilliant!! You should have your own website and TV series.
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Mattie
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Re: Don Sullivan's command collar

Post by Mattie »

toddly it seems that you only want to hear what you want and are not interested in anything else, there is no need for your attack on Nettle, she is a very experienced trainer/behaviourist who gives her time on here free to help others. If you are not interested in any replies that you don't want to hear then you are on the wrong forum.

We put the dogs first, we don't pussyfoot around to make the owners feel good if we did we would be letting the dogs down and we don't do that.

It is you that is negative not Nettle, the advice given is good and works, we don't learn by books or tv programs but by our own experiences with our dogs, many came with horendous problems thanks to owners who have blindfolds on and don't want to know how to solve the problems with their dogs.
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