Various control equipment

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ladybug1802
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Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

So....now I am also doing an essay on 'control equipments'...various types and their advantages and disadvantages. So this is to include aversives like choke chains and prong collars etc.....as i think they want us to know why people may find them beneficial to use, and want us to be ab;le to have information to back up telling them why NOT to use them, rather than just saying they are cruel!

i am struggling to find so called advantages of things like the choke chain, prong collar, shock collar and any other aversive equipment....othert than they would have an immediate effect on the dog of stopping it doing what it was doing at the time, which would probably be attractive to a lot of owners. But I do not want to get emotional and put my own view of these things in my essay.....but am struggling to find sources of proper info!

Any ideas?
bendog
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by bendog »

This paper [Clinical signs caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday life situations. E. Schalke, J. Stichnoth, S. Ott, R. Jones-Baade, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 105, Issue 4, July 2007, Pages 369–380] discusses elevation of stress levels in dogs when shock collars are used. But it also shows that shocks DO prevent the behaviour (in this case approaching/chasing a "prey" rabbit dummy) in less than 7 days (in fact I'd have to re-read the paper but I believe it's less than 2 sessions for the dogs to learn) so I can see why people use them as a quick fix even if they are cruel. There is another study somewhere that also deals with sheep worrying and shock collars that suggests they do work for animal aversion purposes (Applied Animal Behaviour Science
Volume 72, Issue 2, 26 April 2001, Pages 131–143 Behavioural changes and aversive conditioning in hunting dogs by the second-year confrontation with domestic sheep Frank O Christiansen Morten Bakken, Bjarne O Braastad)

However dogs that were shocked for failing to respond to a recall command did not learn from it and were stressed. So it seems there has to be a really clear visual cue for the dogs to learn "touch this = shock" and therefore they learn not to touch it. With the failure to respond to recall I guess you risk your recall word becoming a cue that "you are going to get shocked now" rather than punishment.

Therefore the main argument against shock collars I think (aside from the pain) is that most owners would not use them correctly. E.g. use them as punishment AFTER the event, so the dog isn't learning anything except be afraid of it's owner, use them for inappropriate situations (e.g invisible fence) which can cause dogs to associate shock with a different stimulus than the intended e.g. may make dog fearful of people/other dogs etc.
Theres an article here that discusses shock collars http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/downloa ... -Paper.pdf

So I don't think we can say they don't work full stop, but that there are KINDER ways to teach your dog.

Paper showing use of confrontational methods (including choke/prong collars) increases aggression [Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 117, Issues 1–2, February 2009, Pages 47–54 Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors Meghan E. Herron, , Frances S. Shofer, Ilana R. Reisner]

Choke chains/prong collars tend to be used by people who follow the dominance school of thought - your dog has to know you're the boss etc. SO debunking that will go a long way to convincing people to try positive methods instead.
ladybug1802
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

Thanks Bendog!!! :D

Yes this is the sort of things I have cited in my essay...its hard though as you cant do more than 2000 words, and in my first draft I did nearly 700 on the shock collar alone! One of the APDT UK instructors said to me it can be done in more of a 'grid' style....ie not to put too many words in but its to show we know the disadvantages of aversives as well as why people use them, so we can tell people why they should NOT use thyem rather thjan just saying they are cruel...so now am rewriting mine!!
doggiedad
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by doggiedad »

i've never heard the term control equipment. a lot of things can be used as
control equipment. various collars, harness, a stick, a rope, hand signals, etc.
the best control equipment is training and socializing. when a dog is well trained
and highly socialized ithink your voice, hand signals or body signals are what you need to
control a dog. i don't believe in usuing devices (control equipment) to have control
of a dog. you need some type of control equipment in the begining of training but
i don't think you should rely on control equipment to to have control of a dog. how do
you control a dog if the dog doesn't have any control equipment on?
Ari_RR
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by Ari_RR »

Generally speaking, I agree with doggiedad's comments.
However, being able to control the dog at all times is an ideal case, not realistically achievable by everyone.
In some cases - due to lack of training.
In other cases - due to the dog's individual issues (some are fearfull/reactive, for example).
In other cases - due to environment (living next to a kindergarden, for example.. unruly kids in close proximity, or other animals)

So... I would not go as far as making a sweeping generalization that control equipment should not be used, period. While not the most desirerable solution, it may be necessary in some situations.

Which brings up the question - what kind of control equipment? The answer, in my opinion, largely depends on the physical abilities of the dog and the owner.. Imagine a fragile grandmother having to walk a fearfull/reactive/lunging/pulling husky or a great dane. And a 6.5 ft tall lumberjack walking a fearfull/reactive/lunging/pulling chihuahua. I would say that the grandma needs some effective control equipment, while the lumberjack could probably do without it.
bendog
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by bendog »

Even a lead is "control equipment".

Certain control equipment should be used for safety as well as training. Obviously not aversives, but a lead and collar, or harness are for safety's sake.
Yes it would be lovely if we all had dogs that never needed a lead on them, but it just wouldn't be safe
ladybug1802
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

Doggiedad...I just want to claerify...this is for the purposes of an essay only. It is not advocating or dismissing control equipment, but merely to show that we can discuss the pros and cons of various pieces of equipment. And as bendog says....a lead is a piece of control equipment too!

I need to list as many things as i can and give pros and cons without my emotions and personal feeligns getting in there. So far the only pros for a lot of them like shockl collar, prong collar, choke chain etc etc, is that they give quick fixes and provide control in situations some owners would lose control. Not many pros in my mind!!
Ari_RR
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by Ari_RR »

ladybug1802 wrote:... and provide control in situations some owners would lose control.
I have never used a choke or a prong or a shock collar on my dog.. And not planning to.

However, it is easier said than done - let's make sure we research breeds before getting a dog, let's make sure we have time and energy and money to invest in proper training and environment management, let's make sure we know and account for all our own limitations.... and we'll never have to resort to "control equipment".

Some people don't consider much of anything before getting a dog. Others do all possible research and then some, and still end up with a dog that they can't control. For others, life conditions change - they loose jobs, they loose spouses, they loose mobilty. Life can be unpredictable at times. But regardless of how those unfortunate owners got there, having an uncontrollable dog, especially a large one, is a danger to other people, children, animals, and themselves. In these situations, again regardless of what had lead to them, "control equipment" may well be the only choice available, except perhaps sending the dog to be PTS.

Bottom line... My 2 cents is that, not being a proponent of "control equipment" as a standard practice, I stop short from declaring it useless, with no pros. Unfortunately, there may be circumstances, where "control equipment" may be necessary. I just wish that dog owners in general viewed it this way - as an exception rather then the rule, for exceptional circumstances, not something to be used when there are other ways and means available.
ladybug1802
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

Ari...I think you may be misunderstanding the reason for my post. I am not advocating any equipment at all.....of course I wouldnt use prong collars, choke collars or anything else. I use a harness if Dylan needs to stay on his long lead on walks, and a harness with a front ring and double ended lead if we walk to the little town in Dorset where my parents have a flat. Nothing else.

But....for the purposes of my APDT UK course one of my essays is on control equipment....with the main reason being so that we research what is out there, and understand about them all, so that when we meet people/clients who like to use choke chains or headcollars or shock/spray collars, we are able to give a more educated and informed response instead of an emotional "it is cruel" response. If people use these gadgets they are getting results (of course their dog will stop what it is doing if it gets a big old electric shock!) so they will need information as to the damaging effects it can cause, and why it works but isnt the best way to stop that unwanted behaviour in order for them to change their ways.

Obviously if you didbnt misunderstand and are giving your opinion then ignore this!! :D
Ari_RR
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by Ari_RR »

no, no, i got it :) just sharing thoughts!
ladybug1802
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

Ah ok cool¬!! Sorry!! And thanks for your thoughts...all thoughts welcomed!! :D
jakesmom
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by jakesmom »

Hi Ladybug

I'm just checking if you've noticed the post under 'Dog Training Articles' about all collars, including chokers, prongs and shocks.

It may be useful to you.
______________
Sue
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
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Location: Surrey

Re: Various control equipment

Post by ladybug1802 »

ah no Jakesmom I hadnt...thank you!!! I hadnt even thought to look in there! Much appreciated! :D
Wilkie
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Re: Various control equipment

Post by Wilkie »

I think that the aversive tools are used because the "owner" is deeply lacking the confidence that is needed in order to show the dog that you'll have their back.

There are positive tools that are used sparingly as a way to keep everyone safe, but then there are aversive tools that are meant to make the "owner" FEEL like they have control when they have none at all. Aversive tools aren't fun period. Positive tools bring out enjoyment. You want to be able to enjoy life rather than be afraid. Positive tools also bring out the dog's confidence so they know that they have some control. Dogs need choices just like humans do. Aversive tools don't allow the dog to choose between good or bad decisions.
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