Shock Collar For Howling

[KatrinaUK]

Before you jump on your high horse about shock collars, please read my topic before you jump to any conclusions, and I would welcome your opinion.

I have a 6yr old Cocker Spaniel. Since we got him from the breeder as a puppy he has always had a howling problem and it is very upsetting for everyone to hear (including the whole neighbourhood!) We've had comments such as 'what are you doing to that dog', and 'Is the dog in pain' etc. We've also been worried that people are going to report us to the local council. His problem is he has separation anxiety (even though he knows someone is in the room next door), but it is obvious he also sometimes does it just to get attention if he doesn't get his own way. He is a lucky dog because there is usually one of us in throughout the day, so he is never left for long periods, and if one or other of us go out, we usually take him in the car. Apart from this problem he is all the qualities in a dog I have always wanted. He is a lovely dog and has a great, fun personality.

Anyway getting to the point, I only recently heard of shock collars, and to be honest the thought made me cringe inside (an image of an electrocuted dog comes into my mind ), but I decided to look into it anyway, as we have tried every other suggestion/method as to get him to stop howling over the years and which have been unsuccessful. I found one on ebay which came with a remote controller so I would be fully in control. It had 3 functions a bird whistle, a vibration (like putting your vibrating mobile to your neck), and then third comes the shock. I immediately thought great. I can give him a warning with the bird whistle first, and if he still doesn't shut up I will give him the vibration. But there's no way I could bring myself to give him a shock. I decided to purchase it off ebay as a last resort and I tried them all out on me first. Thank goodness I decided not to give him the shock as it gave me the fright of my life, I can't imagine doing that to my lovely dog! You couldn't alter the intensity of the shock either. However the vibration mode was brilliant. Enough to give him a fright but not to electrocute him! Anyway I started him with it today, and the first time I used the vibration it really did do the trick! He actually stopped howling, and when he came into the house again he was his normal happy, waggy tail self, so it didn't affect him apart from stopping the howling. I'm going to keep you all posted to see how it goes and if we have solved his problem for good, but if it has, it will be a miracle and a relief!!!!

[Ari_RR]

Hello!

Well.. My 2 cents here (not a "high horse" thing at all , just 2 cents).
You in your own note say that most likely there is separation anxiety behind howling. The dog feels frightened or otherwise uncomfortable under certain conditions, and shows this by howling... And then neighbors complained, etc.
Let's assume that you addressed the howling by making the point to the dog - if you howl, you get this unpleasant feeling in you neck. He is a quick learner.. He , like all other dogs, hates this vibrating feeling.. It's not as bad as electric shock, but still it's disturbing for the dog (otherwise there would be no point, right?)

So.. The dog now doesn't howl. Neighbors no longer complain. This is all good, but what about the true underlying cause - that separation anxiety or whatever that might be that caused him to howl in the first place? Not only it's still there.. But he is afraid to show his reaction, which probably makes the situation even more difficult for him to deal with...

I am glad things feel better for you, but keep this in mind - there are symptoms and there are underlying causes. Suppressing symptoms without addressing the underlying cause may in some circumstances lead to more issues.

Just food for thought here, no judgement call

Edit - also note that in using e-collars timing is of enormous importance. Press the button just a bit too soon or too late - and the dog associates the shock with the wrong action, or is confused and can't make that association at all. There are trainers who teach the techniques of doing it right, and even then it's not always easy to grasp. So, be careful with the one you got, if you keep using it - work on timing of those vibrating shocks, it ought to be perfect..

Cheers

[Suzette]

I agree with Ari. And here's how I always see the difference between dominance training and positive training (and I do believe shock collars, even when used on vibrate, would fall into the dominance training category) -- dominance training treats the action of the dog, but positive training treats the reason for the action. It's the difference between putting a band-aid on the problem and treating/curing the underlying reason for the problem. The thing is that band-aids seem to work at first, but they aren't long term solutions. Eventually the band-aid falls off and the problem is still there, sometimes worse than before. Treating the underlying cause for the action through positive training gives long term (often lifetime) results that make for a healthier, happier dog and owner (and even neighbors).

[Nettle]

Dogs howl for communication. I would want to know why mine was howling, and then make appropriate changes to his life so that he doesn't feel the need to. He's been doing this for six years - wouldn't it be nicer for both of you if his needs could be addressed? If you give us a full rundown of his day, we'd be able to help. I'm not sure why he is alone in another room at times.

If any unwanted behaviour in any animal (us too) is suppressed, then it comes out another way, especially if the suppression relies on fear and/or pain. Instead of howling, he might progrees to self-mutilation, or stereotypical pacing and circling, or chewing or.....any one of lots of behaviours that are as undesirable as howling.

So that's why the electric collar would be unsuitable.

[jakesmom]

Ari, Suzette and Nettle,

Very well said !!!!

You have argued the point so well, it just seems so obvious and common sense. It just makes me wonder why as it taken us humans so many years to even begin to "get it".

Sue

[ladybug1802]

Also although to us humansd the vibration is not as bad pr painful as the actual shock, bear in mind we know it is coming....dogs dont. This is one of the damaging things about them.....so for an anxious or sensitive dog, the vibration aong with the surprise element will be enough to put it on edge...it will not nbecessarily associate the shock with the howling as timing would need to be spot on and within about half a second to associate the two anyway....and it could well associate the sensation with something else...like if they looked at a person passing the window, or if there is another dog in the house, as just an example. You could well in time turn your happy little dog into an anxious reactive dog which i know you would not want to do.

If you ever are unsure of the pain the shock collars can inflict on a dog, try one of them with several settings on your arm....I managed to get up to level 6 if i remember correctly...and that was with me wincing in pain! No way would I put one of them on a dog.

[jacksdad]

I understand completely why you are looking for a quick fix. But the collar isn't a fix.

Like ARI so eloquently put it..."there are symptoms and there are underlying causes" you are addressing the symptom with the collar and not the underlying causes.

Please, Please take the collar off and let us help you help your dog. if your dog has separation anxiety tendencies, that speaks a lot about your dog and the barking issue, maybe more than you realize. Shocking your dog is clearly inappropriate, but even the vibration setting isn't appropriate in this situation. Your dog isn't being "bad", its most likely suffering from stress/fear/anxiety.

Please don't ruin your relationship with your dog. Please let us help you help your dog.

[dog2]

i had a cocker spaniel lovely lovely dogs so much character.he howled briefly when i went out(the neighbours told me)and that stopped quickly but also when he heard a certain sound that started him off.you should have heard him if we were in the car and a police car with sirens went past.also in the middle of the night sometime not always by any means he would howl til he realised he wasnt alone.maybe your cocker is hearing something which starts him off?sorry probably no help just saying what made my cocker howl.

[KatrinaUK]

To everyone who's posted, I'm not looking for a 'quick fix' to his problem. Bear in mind I have had him for 6 years, and I have tried many different methods to get him to stop howling over the years, and this is my last hope.

You see the thing is, like I mentioned in my post, is that he has been howling since we got him from the breeder. It's not a behaviour he has learned since we got him. The breeder had both Cocker parents (which were both adorable!) When we bought him, he was the last left of the litter and also a bit older (nearly 4 months old). The owner claimed that she was going to keep him, however she said she realised she had enough on her plate with the two parents. She had even named him 'baby' to which he responded! (When we got him, we re-named him Merlin which was more fitting!) She said she wanted to make sure he went to an owner where someone didn't leave him on his own too long, and that she could never give him to someone who had a full time job which was fully understandable. We didn't suspect anything at the time, we just thought it was standard breeder talk, as understandably they don't want to give the puppy to you if he is going to be on his own all day, for obvious reasons.

After we had bought him and realised he had a howling problem, we then began to suspect the breeder had been hiding something from us. We came to our own conclusion that the reason he was a bit older than most to leave his parental home, was infact because she had initially sold him to someone who left him alone for long periods (because they had a job probably), and we suspect they returned him because he developed this howling problem. I'm not saying that what I think is correct, but looking back, I do suspect this. And of course there was no way we would have returned him back to the breeder. Once we had bought him, there was no way I was giving him up!

He howls in different situations such as simply closing the kitchen door on him while you sit down to have a meal (even though it is a see through door so he can see we are there). Or if we have visitors and they don't like dogs so we have to close the doors so he can't get in the room. Or if we put him outside in the garden, close the door. He will do a circle of the garden, then run to the back door and start howling after a couple of minutes if you don't let him in. Or if you put him in the car to go out and you realise you have forgotten something, so you go back in the house to get it (leaving him in the car for no more than 1 minute), he will start to howl in anticipation of going somewhere. However once I've driven to my destination and leave him in the car for an hour whilst I do a bit of shopping, he is silent, and seems perfectly content...?! However if you drive him to my brother's house for instance (he has been inside his house before), my brother doesn't particularly like dogs, so he may tell me to leave Merlin in the car, and Merlin will start howling simply because he can't understand why he is now allowed in the house.....To get attention! The more I think about it, I think what began as an anxiety habit from before we got him, has now turned into an attention-seeking problem.

[ladybug1802]

Hi.....so from your descriptionms of when he howls it sounds very very much like his howliong is actually very much linked to his separation anxiety. When he is shut away from you (dfifferent room/garden/car/whatever)...it wont matter that he canb see you through a glass door, it isnt that simple with SA. When you put him in the car then find you have forgotten something, so have to go back to the house, his howling is more likely to be due to you leaving him and its not in anticipation of getting somewhere. Same when at your brothers house....he wont be thinking "why cant I go in? I am going to howl to get attention" - dogs just do not think like that. His howling sounds to me to be very much linked to insecurity.

Incidentally, when you do, for example, have to shut him in another room if guests come over, do you leave him with anything to occupy him such as a stuffed kong?

You did mention in your original post he has separation anxiety....so can you tell us what you have done in the past to help him with this and get him over it? What happens when you leave him in the house - does he howl continuously? The thing with SA is dogs dont just 'get over it' on their own....it just gets worse....and this isnt the dog being 'bad'...it is genuine stress and anxiety. i am convinced the howling is linked to this...and igf what you suspect about the breeder and his past is correct, with him being left for long periods and howling, then he is gonna be pretty stressed poor little lad.

My rescue dog had pretty bad SA when i got him....he would cry, howl, pace and generakly be very stressed when left aloine. It took me a good couple of months to get him over it, and during that time he wasnt left on his own at all aparty from the training times (but can go into that in more detail later).

[Ari_RR]

Looks like that if you were to never leave him alone in the other room, outside, or in the car.. - he would never howl. Well, great, if that's the case, then this is the starting point. It's going to be a bit of a challenge, since he already has the association - being left alone in a closed room, or in the car, or locked out in the garden is BAD, SCARY. But there are ways to deal with this issue, which are likely to help. This will essentially boil down to making baby steps - leave him in a room with toys to play or treats to find, for just a few moments, reward when he is clam and quiet, then start increasing the time, slowly.. Have you tried this approach? What were the results?

Until you get him to a point where he is comfortable being left alone, I would not subject him to separation, as this could have a "set back" impact on training. Let him be with you... don't invite people who don't like dogs for a while, go out to the garden with him, give you brother a break from your visits Focus on training Merlin, and when he is comfortable being alone, you will resume all those activities and social life and will enjoy them...

good luck!

[Horace's Mum]

Just to throw a bit more thinking into the mix, the vibration in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on how you use it. OP has already said she would never use the shock, which is obviously a good thing as I can't think of any situation where that could be a good thing to use. But some of you may know I use a vibe collar at times for my boy because of his deafness - admittedly very rarely because I have found so many other ways to communicate and deal with things, but one of the biggest things I did use it for was to teach him to settle in his crate when I was out of the room, or to settle at the other end of the hall at dog training when I was away from him.

IF you choose to use the vibration, as far as I'm concerned it is essential that you put the work in to train him in its use BEFORE you just start using it, otherwise it is definitely an adversive - it works by scaring him, if only a small amount. BUT, if you teach him that vibe=reward, the same as you would a clicker, then it can become a very useful tool for working from different rooms. It means you don't have to use your voice, and you don't have to enter the room.

BUT, and this is a big but, if all the howling is due to SA, then you have to sort that out as well. If you take away the howling then you either have to provide another outlet or if it is all due to anxiety then you have to make sure the anxiety is gone, and not that you have just pushed it away to re-emerge as another problem later on down the line.

I did in fact use the collar to work on SA to some degree - because of his deafness my dog does not like not being able to see me, and being "trapped" in a crate while I left was quite stressful for him and made him shout a lot (understandably). At the time he was actually fine being left completely but was upset if he knew someone was in the house but he couldn't see them. But by using the collar as a distance clicker, I was able to leave him and remotely "click" any moments of quiet, and then go back in to give him the reward, and within about 10mins he was happy for me to be out of sight. I was able to gradually build up the time he was quiet for, always "clicking" with the collar at the end before coming back into sight and rewarding him.

I see no reason why this couldn't work the same for a hearing dog who was howling for fun when the owners are around, ie in the house and in sight, it is just another type of clicker, but only if the collar was primed with rewards the way you would with a clicker. And if there is SA about being left in general then that also needs to be addressed obviously. I have also not yet met a dog who has had my collar on and reacted badly to it, including some exceedingly nervy dogs, although hearing dogs seem to react a little more than deafies until they have had a few rewards - they obviously hear the noise too which is more disturbing than the sensation.

Food for thought.

[ladybug1802]

This message below was sent in a PM to me by the original poster....I think by mistake - so am posting it so it doesnt get missed!!



When we leave him in the house alone (which is not very often) he seems to just lie down by the front door (although when we come back we hear the giveaway jump - off the sofa or the bed ) We've waited a few times beside the car and we doesn't howl at all. That's why I suspect it is what I said - when he was a puppy prior to us getting him it was social anxiety and insecurity, but since we got him he realised he could get his own way (ie be let in) if he howled so his behaviour changed into attention seeking.

Unfortunately I am the only dog lover in my family, and most of my friends are not keen on dogs either. They all prefer cats. We have a young siamese cat too (the dog and cat tolerate each other), and they all dote on her and avoid poor Merlin. I feel really sorry for him at times!! Because he just loves people (especially children), and other dogs. So I take him to different parks every day so he can socialise more.

Someone else who lives on our street has a dog. She is not a close neighbour but one day we got talking and she brought her little dog to play with Merlin in our back garden. They were racing around enjoying playing, and then we went inside and a couple of minutes later Merlin is sitting howling his head off exactly like a wolf and was ignoring the other dog. So even when he had someone to play with and keep him occupied he still howled!!

I have tried the clicker technique in the past. Rewarding him the longer he stays in a different room by himself, but it didn't work. He just didn't seem to 'get it'. I've also tried the water squirter method. Giving him a squirt of water if he starts howling. Didn't work.

[jakesmom]

.

However once I've driven to my destination and leave him in the car for an hour whilst I do a bit of shopping, he is silent, and seems perfectly content...?!

Just my opinion, but I think you could be right, in thinking he's attention seeking.

My dog yaps and scratches incessantly when he's locked out and can see us inside, but we can't let him him for whatever reason. But if we lock him in another room, where he can't see us he soon settles.

It 's like dogs who bark in the car at everything they see, but in a van without windows they just settle.

Have you tried covering the glass in the door with a curtain, so that he can't see you.
You could always try hanging a curtain, leave it open and the second he howls shut the curtain. Wait and see if he goes quiet, when he's been quiet for a few seconds open the curtain, and keep repeating until he gets the message

[JudyN]

Could you try video recording him while you're out, so you can see if he looks at all distressed? What they are like when you come home can be misleading - Jasper seems quite calm though pleased to see us when we come home but the audio recording can tell a different story.... Though I think with him he has a bit of a howl when the food runs out, then the occasional whinge, whine & bark, then he thinks he might as well settle down. So I'm wondering if a dog might howl partly from habit and when they find out that howling isn't such a good idea they will be more able to settle themselves.

Someone I know had a dog who would rip the front door to pieces when left. She put a stepladder in front of the door so the dog couldn't get to it, and ever since the dog was fine when left.

So I think it's possible you've cracked the problem and your dog is now OK when left, but if it were me I'd want to know what he was getting up to while left alone.