Thundershirts

[Wes]

Exactly, Jacksdad. I see it as a tool to help solve a problem, not as a solution to a problem itself. I also think it works for some dogs, but not others. Sampson for example HATED the Tshirt. Dug at himself and got worked up trying to remove it. Remy on the other hand, didn't seem to notice he was wearing it. From my experience, it can help some dogs to not reach a shut down point, but it definitely does not cure the fear. The biggest difference I have seen is that Remy will not take hot dogs when within view of a stranger without the vest, but will take the hot dog (slowly) at the same distance with the vest on. It's a very, very slight change in behaviour, but it is there.

[GundogGuy]

In my case, I'm not look for a 'fix all' or anything like that... But I would like to understand if these devices can or should be utilised in a way that would promote a 'trainable frame of mind' for some situations...

[JudyN]

An internet friend has a dog who has a few issues and is generally overaroused. She mentioned the Thundershirt to me. It helped a 'tiny bit' with his travel anxiety, but allows her to walk him around traffic, which she had been trying to get him comfortable with for a year to no avail. If he is having one of his 'bitey attacks', he will let her put it on him and he'll settle right down and be quite cuddly. Certainly with the walking in traffic, it sounds as if it allows the dog to be calm enough so that she can work further on desensitisation. Without knowing exactly what's behind the 'bitey attacks' and watching his reaction when the Thundershirt appears, I wouldn't like to draw judgement on that one.

[bendog]

I've actually considered buying one for Ben for car journeys. It's not something I've got as far as even researching to buy yet though. He doesn't like car journeys (he was car sick as a pup, and I think cars still make him feel a bit unwell), he has no issue with getting into and out of the car but looks miserable as sin throughout the journey - though will eventually settle down and sleep. Since this is a physiological response, rather than a fear response (I think) then I had wondered if the Thundershirt would help just to settle him quicker and make him feel a bit better.

I think it does have to be seen as a tool and not a "fix".

[Butterflyist]

I have just bought a Thundershirt for my newly adopted rescue having received a recommendation from a friend who fosters and who has seen great results. It literally just arrived today so I have yet to see how much it works, but my boy is very clingy and anytime I try to leave him shut in another room, or when I try to go to bed and leave him downstairs, he barks the house down. Subsequently, he has ended up sleeping in my room which I didn't want. Although last week, he had got to the point of being quiet and not barking after just a few minutes when I put him to bed.

Today with the Thundershirt arrival, I took him on a really long walk to tire him, then put the shirt on him while giving him a reward. I then gave him a new chew stick and put him in the lounge. He barked maybe about 3 times, then whined for about 5-10 minutes intermittently. Then I heard him chewing his chew by the door and I snook upstairs (where I work)! Normally, he won't eat or play with his toys once I have left the room (I currently need to stay in the kitchen while he has his meals or he will follow me if I try to leave) so even hearing him chewing and knowing he was enjoying himself in my absence was wonderful.

He then spent about 2 hours - until my son went in the room and disturbed him (without asking me - grrr!) very quiet and presumably asleep and settled (my other dog was in with him too though this has never made a difference in terms of his anxiety levels). I don't know what caused him to regress so much this week but this afternoon with the Thundershirt on is the longest he has been alone, calm and quiet, and I currently feel very hopeful!

He is back under my legs at the desk right now, though with his Thundershirt on after my son let him out from the lounge and he had come up to me, he was sleeping about a foot away from me (not much in our eyes but seems to be a lot for him!). Anyhow early days but today was a real change from the previous days.

Also, since the shirt has a 30 day money back guarantee I can't see what there is to lose from trying!

I don't get the idea that it could bring about 'shut down' though. My understanding is that the shirt is based on the same principle of swaddling a baby to give it comfort, and also acupressure, so why shouldn't we assume that in some cases, this may be all a dog needs? Just a bit of comfort in a particular way that we can't give? In which case, as the dog continues to be comforted with the shirt on in the presence of the stressor, it will stop associating the stressor with an anxious feeling. So the shirt works in itself then to modify the behaviour. Well, that's just my guess!

If positive reinforcement is all about common sense then in a dog that has no aversion to minor pressure, I cannot see how a Thundershirt would be anything but soothing or just have a neutral effect (if the dog accepts it being placed on her).

Anyhow - we're giving it a go and I can let you know how we get along!

[Nettle]

I'm glad it seems to be working for you.

In answer to

My understanding is that the shirt is based on the same principle of swaddling a baby to give it comfort, and also acupressure, so why shouldn't we assume that in some cases, this may be all a dog needs

The caveat here is that dogs are not naturally swaddled or hugged in their world - it's a simian thing, comforting for us but most often scary for dogs until they are used to it - and even then, many only tolerate it rather than actively enjoy it. So the response will be different with different dogs: some may be claustrophobic, some may shut down and so appear calm when they are not, some may like it.

We humans need to be aware of these different responses in our dogs, because in some cases we may actually be increasing the fear.

[Butterflyist]

Well I suppose we just have to assess our individual dogs differently and see how they go. I have just got the Thundershirt out a second time for Zuko & was quite amazed by how super excited he was the minute he saw it! He couldn't wait to wear it, it seems.

There are lots of things in the domestic life of a dog that would never exist in its 'natural' world and they have very complex relationships with human beings. If positive results are seen with Thundershirts I don't see the issue as long as people can see their dog benefits.

Zuko was able to get on with enjoying his chew yesterday in my absence - I call that liberation for him, not being 'shut down'. I don't know when they came on to the market but as my old girl has been dosed up on Valium every bonfire night for years I wish I'd known about it sooner!

[JudyN]

There are lots of things in the domestic life of a dog that would never exist in its 'natural' world and they have very complex relationships with human beings. If positive results are seen with Thundershirts I don't see the issue as long as people can see their dog benefits.

Not everyone is so tuned in to their dog's emotions, though. For many people, as long as the dog is quiet they are happy and could be oblivious to the fact that the dog is really quite stressed (an extreme would be using a shock collar to prevent howling when left). Nettle and the other experts on this forum have to err on the side of caution because they can't see the dog's body language - and have to be aware of others who could read all the positive posts about Thundershirts and think of them as a quick fix, again not considering how the dog actually feels. We want to make sure it genuinely is the dog who benefits and not the owner!

If the Thundershirt works for your dog and you know he is happy in the shirt, then that's great I think in your place I would have allowed for a longer 'settling in' period without pushing for separation, but we're all different, as are our dogs.

[jacksdad]

Well I suppose we just have to assess our individual dogs differently and see how they go. .....

Exactly. But like Judy says, there is more to knowing if it's helping your dog than is the dog quite. quite and sedate can also, not always, can also be "shut down" verse "relaxed". to know the different takes knowing your dog and some education in dog body language.

There are lots of things in the domestic life of a dog that would never exist in its 'natural' world and they have very complex relationships with human beings. If positive results are seen with Thundershirts I don't see the issue as long as people can see their dog benefits.

But dogs are still dogs. just being in a domestic life living with humans doesn't change some very core/basic traits of what a dog is.

Please don't take it that we are saying your doing something wrong. it is VERY much a take it one dog at a time kind of thing. I have tried the thundershirt with my dog, but quickly abandoned because he was clearly not comfortable with it. given a choice my dog would 100% nothing be on him. no collars, no harness, no wrap etc. so it is VERY important we pay attention to what our dogs tell us.

[runlikethewind]

It occurred to me that dogs perhaps cannot shake off effectively with a thundershirt on.

[GundogGuy]

I was having a clear out in the shop today and have decided to sell the shirts I have on ebay and forget about them...

[Dbqdogtrainer]

We need to bear in mind that the hug/pressure=relaxation is a human reaction - and what we are dealing with is not human.

I remember reading something about this once. Hugging is relaxing for humans/primates because it mimics the whole mother/breastfeeding positions, being carried as a baby etc.
Dogs don't have the same chest-chest contacts as puppies so hugging is unnatural to them, and not soothing.

However - MPbandmom, Ben is very similar, he definately visibly relaxes when I hug him if he's stressing (and I can feel him relax and go floppy, rather then tense as it would be if he shut down). So it really does depend on the dog! I suspect a Thundershirt would work with him, but it definately wouldn't with Poppy (she'd probably try and rip it off)

It seems the majority of my original post has been deleted. I am a registered nurse with a strong background in science and graduate education in physiology as well as animal biology and behavior. I think I probably explained how pressure wraps work in my original post. It's more than a simple "hug." These wraps work through a physiologic mechanism called "maintained pressure." Not all of the work the same. The original wrap also targets acupressure points. In my experience as a professional dog trainer who works with fearful and aggressive dogs on a regular basis, as well as a registered nurse who has witnessed firsthand the application of pressure to calm people with autism, I can vouch for the science and the effectiveness of pressure wraps. Again, not all of these wraps are created equally nor are they equally effective. Nor are the business practices comparable. I purchased and used the original, patented pressure wrap on my dog several years ago and was so impressed that I have been recommending to my clients with fearful and aggressive dogs ever since. I am glad to further explain the physiology to anyone who is interested. I think I may have posted a link to an article I wrote comparing the products on the market, but that was deleted.

[ladybug1802]

I was going to get one for Dylan just to see if it helped at times of fireworks or thunder for example, but have been to-ing and fro-ing because I cant see how it is really going to help on its own. I had a chat to my veterinary behaviourist about them and he said that some people swear they work, but he also said there is no scientific evidence that they work.

Gundogguy....do you have any left? If you are selling them off cheap I may be interested in buying one to give it a go?

[jacksdad]

I think there is two parts to consider here.

Part one. is the science behind the body wraps sound? if so, does it translate to dogs? and if yes, what is the best way to apply it to dogs?

Part two. assuming the answer to part one is yes, and yes...are thundershirts applying the science/concept correctly or in a way that dogs truly benefit?

You can have sound theory/science, but have those concepts misapplied or not applied well. And I think that is the primary question here, do thundershirts deliver? Not is the theory sound. though that is also an interesting and important question worth exploring too.

[GundogGuy]

I was going to get one for Dylan just to see if it helped at times of fireworks or thunder for example, but have been to-ing and fro-ing because I cant see how it is really going to help on its own. I had a chat to my veterinary behaviourist about them and he said that some people swear they work, but he also said there is no scientific evidence that they work.

Gundogguy....do you have any left? If you are selling them off cheap I may be interested in buying one to give it a go?

I have xs, s, m and l left... Pm me you're address and I'll send you one as an extension of our experiment... but don't expect a chrissy pressy this year