Pet corrector spray

Discussion of useful training and pet care tools.

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Koda
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Koda » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:08 pm

My dog does not react like she's afraid of Pet Corrector. This is quite a forum if you can only express one opinion. Thanks so much.

OnceInAWeil
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: AZ, USA

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by OnceInAWeil » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:04 am

Koda, if you make a thread about your dog's issues with detailed information about the dog's day and what/how the dog is fed, as well as the techniques that have been tried and failed, we can help you with positive methods. There are actually several users on this board that have dogs with very difficult issues, such as fear aggression. Positive methods are not only for fixing "easy" dogs. :)

The rule is because aversive methods are potentially dangerous, and at the very least they are damaging to the dog's psyche. On the Positively forum, we want to educate people on humane, safe ways to train their pets.

jacksdad
Posts: 4879
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by jacksdad » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:53 am

Koda wrote:My dog does not react like she's afraid of Pet Corrector.
Then what is the point of using it? it's designed to make your dog afraid so it will stop doing an unwanted behavior. If your dog isn't afraid of it, then your wasting your money using it.

The manufacture even indicates that fear is how it works..."Snakes, insects and birds such as geese, use their hiss sound to drive off predators". These animals make this noise to create fear in another animal.

Why would you want to create fear in your dog? Trust me, as someone who has spent a lot of time helping a dog who's root issue is fear, this is a dangerous path you are walking. it takes fractions of seconds to create lasting fear, and sometimes months or years to undo. in extreme cases it's never undone.
Koda wrote:This is quite a forum if you can only express one opinion. Thanks so much.
As someone who has been using forums and the Internet for quit a long time I can assure you this is normal. It is NORMAL for forums to have guidelines for what is acceptable. I have yet to find a forum that didn't have at least one rule that was absolutely a do not cross this line kind of rule. The owner of this forum has VERY loose rules, trust me I have been here a while and have seen the conversations. HOWEVER, there is one rule/guideline that isn't "loose" and that is to participate here you can't advocate using pain or fear to train a dog. There is NO NEED to use pain or fear to train a dog.

I know you so kindly called me the perfect trainer....*blushes*.... thank you :oops: However, I would hate for people to be misinformed about me. I am not perfect, I am actually a first time dog owner who "lucked out" with my dog. I ended up with a dog who was fearful of other dogs, unknown people, resource guarding, has some separation anxiety/distress tendencies, and on top of all that is epileptic. One of the first trainers I tried to work with called my dog one of the most sever cases of aggression she had seen and suggested I use a prong collar on him then pull up on it to effectively cut off his air to "correct" his barking/lunging complete meltdowns when he saw another dog. Needless to say, I didn't do that. I went looking for a better way and found it.

Today he is able to deal with most dogs calmly, he has even helped give other dogs who were flipping out by giving a calm response and play bows and other behaviors to try and calm things down. on the people front...he is turning into a little "social butterfly". on the separation front, doing better, and so on. All his progress has been due to patience, building trust and because I do NOT use fear or pain to change his behavior. I know what I know because for 3 years I have worked through each of my dog's issues, and spent HOURS and HOURS studying what the top names in the aggressive dog world have to say. Then learned to apply it, and now help others...and not just on this board.

So, long winded post to say this......you don't need to be the perfect trainer, or even a highly experienced trainer in order to train a "difficult" dog without resorting to pain and fear to end unwanted behavior. The only two requirements, patience and a willingness to learn.

Grammy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:47 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Grammy » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:01 pm

I am grandma to a 2 year old Labradoodle who doesn't get enough walking at home so I was frustrated on my walks with her with my 13 year old vizsla who is a real gentleman. She would snarl when approaching other dogs to the point the owners thought she was dangerous. She just couldn't wait to play. A dog walker who worked in my community told me about per corrector/controller. I got it and the very next week she couldn't t believe it was the same dog. We walked up to her and her dog and my kiddo sat when I stopped and waited for the others to approach. She no longer barks at my window. The device has been wonderful for me to use, ut I do so on a non threatening way. I use voice and then spray but not at her. She looks up at me for walking and other directions. Sometimes she will look to see if it is ok to bark and it always is when it is play time. There is no fear of the device. For Syd it is a reminder even if I just hold it up. I use it rarely after only one week. However the discipline did not transfer to her home so I took it there one day where she usually jumps all over me. Now she understands that the rules are the same everywhere. I represent walks and dog park to her so she is always happy to see me. I do not rely on the device to solve everything. I consistently require the dogs to wait behind me to go in and out of the door. They must wait for OK to get their food. I work for being pack leader without the device, but it got things started for me will no ill effects.

Suzette
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:45 am

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Suzette » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:03 pm

Grammy, the fact that you got the result you desired from using this spray does not take away from the fact that you could have gotten the same results using humane, positive training which would have had the added benefit of bonding you closer with your dog and building a foundation of trust and security.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11

Grammy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:47 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Grammy » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:56 pm

Humane? I did not abuse Syd in any way. She trusts me very much in that she runs to me when the kids in her home are loud. She cuddles when I give her a blow dry after a bath. In fact all I have to do is point to the tub and she hops in. She stands perfectly still when I give her a trim around the eyes. The corrector is not for all humans or all dogs. I never used it in a threatening way. The sound simply did more than my hiss to redirect her obsessions. After I got her attention I now have convinced her that I am a leader in her pack and continued instruction can now be done without the additional noise. And that is all it is. It is not a punishment, only an attention getter superior to my voice. As a senior citizen, I needed to get her under control for safety and so we can enjoy our time together. That little girl respects and loves me. If someone used the device by being angry and aiming it threateningly at the pooch they are not using it correctly and are angry abusive people to begin with. I don't use prong collars, choke chains or any device that inflicts pain. Plus she was on Valium before I started eorking with her. To my way of thinking she doesn't need it when she is with me. Any benign thing can be abusive if used in a threatening way. And rat poison can save heart patients. It's all in the intent and delivery with a willingness to change tact if the result requires.

jacksdad
Posts: 4879
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by jacksdad » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:30 pm

When Pet corrector spray, choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, leash pops/yanks, water squirt bottles and other punishment devices/methods work, they do so because the dog experienced pain, something unpleasant, or something fear inducing....basically anything that the dog does not want to experience again. This is actually not open for debate, this is how these devices and punishment based training works. IF the experience is not painful enough, unpleasant enough, scary enough, then the behavior will most likely NOT stop and whatever we are doing to our dog is NOT punishment, but taking us down the path of abuse. Again, not open to debate, open any entry level college text on learning and behavior and you will learn these facts along with mountains of supporting scientific evidence.

MOST people and many trainers do NOT understand punishment, how to apply it correctly, when to apply etc. This alone is reason enough for most people and trainers not to attempt to use punishment. Another good reason, punishment isn't required to train a dog or change the behavior of a dog. Yet another reason to NOT punish unwanted behavior is often the unwanted behavior is a symptom of fear or simply being a dog and doing what comes natural to a dog as the default behavior. neither justify having pain, fear, or other unpleasantness inflicted on a dog.

The most commonly violated "rule" of using punishment be it by professional trainers or simply every day dog owners is NOT teaching an alternate behavior to the unwanted behavior prior to applying punishment. Now here is where things get interesting and one guide to know if you are truly talking with and educated professional trainer... IF you have sufficiently trained your dog in a wanted behavior as an alternate to the unwanted...there is NO need to punish the unwanted behavior. Let me illustrate.

Dog jumps on people to greet. A common alternate behavior to jumping on people to greet is to teach them to approach people,then sit to be petted and greeted. IF you make the alternate behavior strong enough, the default, the "this is just how the world works" ..... and you do this well, with good reinforcement and practice...there is NO need to punish the jumping, the jumping will NOT be happening anymore, rather the alternate behavior happens.

It is frighteningly easy to make mistakes and do damage with punishment based training. The consequences of punishment based training are VERY hard to fix.

While it is possible (and people do it) make mistakes and make things worse with misapplied positive reinforcement based training...it is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to mess things up badly, and MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to fix when it does happen.

Shalista
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Shalista » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:11 pm

Are all interrupting devices bad though?

My sister has a whistle that is almost identical to the one i use for Bax's recall. she blows it whenever her dog barks and he comes running and stops barking. (she didn't train him, he just came running the first time she whistled and he's done it ever since. i guess he just likes the sound? or thinks it's odd?)

My cousins girlfriend has a vibrating collar for her dog that she vibrates whenever he does something wrong.

Neither of those things hurt the dog or even really startle it right? Would this fall under the "yes but...." category of "not harmful but there are better methods"?
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

Fundog
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Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Fundog » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:53 am

On one of her first episodes in the United States, Victoria helped a couple with a dog that barked whenever he was outside, and someone walked past. At first, the couple had been going out and grabbing the dog by his collar to drag him inside, to which he became rather aggressive. Victoria showed the couple how to condition the dog to come inside when they blew a whistle the moment the barking started. First, they "primed" the whistle by blowing and treating until the dog automatically looked up expectantly. Then, when someone walked by and the dog started barking, they blew the whistle. The dog stopped barking and came in for his treat.

I actually took that idea and used it for myself and my dogs, especially on our walks, for certain distractions like cats. They would become very focused on the cat, and start trying to pull me, wanting to chase it. Instead, the moment I saw the cat, I blew the whistle. They immediately turned and sat in front of me, to which they were rewarded with something very tasty. The cat went its merry way, the dogs never saw it, and I kept both of my arms securely attached to my body. :mrgreen:

Other common "interruptors" that are safe to use would be sounds like, "Uh-oh!" or "Hey!" It gets the dog's attention away from the unwanted behavior (sniffing the trash can) long enough for you to give a positive instruction, something else he should be doing instead, and then praise/reward for that.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

jacksdad
Posts: 4879
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by jacksdad » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:06 pm

Shalista wrote:Are all interrupting devices bad though?
It depends on what you are doing and how you are doing it.

each and every time we find our self interrupting for the same thing that should be a clue we need to apply some training. Generally speaking training in this case most likely needs to be a alternate behavior OR a incompatible behavior to what you are interrupting over and over and over....
Shalista wrote:My sister has a whistle that is almost identical to the one i use for Bax's recall. she blows it whenever her dog barks and he comes running and stops barking. (she didn't train him, he just came running the first time she whistled and he's done it ever since. i guess he just likes the sound? or thinks it's odd?)
as shared above this sounds like your sister simply has a variation of recall/leave it going on. leave it and recall have a lot in common and fill somewhat the same need. One of the really cool things I find when people shift into a more positive training mind set verse a punishment based mind set is their dogs often will start offering behaviors that we can capitalize on that help solve "problems". it sounds like your sister maybe have done just that.
Shalista wrote:My cousins girlfriend has a vibrating collar for her dog that she vibrates whenever he does something wrong.
This is a good illustration of people NOT understanding punishment and why people just drop punishment as the go to solution. MOST people do NOT want to hurt their dog, BUT culturally have been programmed to think you have to punish whenever your dog does something you don't like or your dog won't respect you, listen to you or some other hogwash.

your cousin's girlfriend sounds like she is trying to punish like with a shock collar, but without the shock. The way you shared this it sounds like there is only "punishment" going on and no training as to what the dog should be doing. this is HIGHLY common, even among "professional" trainers. Also the odds are the dog doesn't find the vibrations punishing, so continues to do the unwanted behavior thus experiencing vibrations for the same thing over and over. Again, HIGHLY common. If my assumptions are correct, it is waste of time on your cousin's girlfriends part to use a vibrating collar.
Shalista wrote:Neither of those things hurt the dog or even really startle it right? Would this fall under the "yes but...." category of "not harmful but there are better methods"?
That we do not think the dog was hurt, or that the dog does not need medical attention is not justification for applying unpleasantness, pain, or creating fear in our dogs in order to change/stop behavior.

Interruptions and punishment are not synonymous. They are not the same thing. For punishment to be effective there MUST be an unpleasant experience, one intense enough to stop an unwanted behavior, but does not cause a medical emergency, and results in the reduced odds of seeing a specific behavior again. Note, it is NOT enough to simply stop a behavior. The dog NEEDS to know what IS "legal" to do OR you risk seeing the unwanted behavior again and again and again. even correctly punished behaviors can come back if a void is left, incorrectly punished behaviors are practically guaranteed to return quickly.

On the other hand, an interrupter...NOTHING says it has to be unpleasant, cause pain, fear. In fact I would argue that a HIGHLY effective interrupter will be something the dog has learned is a cue for something better to happen over with you vs what they are currently doing.

Even though unlike punishment (or correction as some trainer call it, but it's the same thing) an interrupter does not need to be an unpleasant, painful, or fearful experience for our dog.... it remains an "flag" that "signals" that our dogs may need to be training in an alternate or incompatible behavior.

there are many reasons to NOT choose to use pain, force, fear to train a dog or to change/stop unwanted behavior. Not the least being simply NOT wanting inflict unpleasant experiences on our dog. there are also non emotional based reasons too....The use of alternate or incompatible behaviors correctly trained, with solid reinforcement history can replace unwanted behaviors. if a unwanted behavior is replaced...then it has stopped happening. If you can stop an unwanted behavior without using pain, force or fear...why wouldn't you choose this other path?

A side affect of NOT using pain, force or fear to train and/or change behavior is dogs will be more likely to offer a wider range of behaviors, and sometimes they do offer a better solution to a problem than we could think up and because it is their choice, if we capture it and reinforce the heck out of it they are EVEN MORE likely to use this other offered an reinforced behavior at their "go to" vs the unwanted behavior.

Shalista
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by Shalista » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:15 pm

Thanks fundog and jacksdad! I understand that punishment is bad i just was wondering about the correct usage of interrupters and whether some methods were better then others. At least to me it seems liek a really fine line between interrupting a behavior and punishing a behavior :?
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

jacksdad
Posts: 4879
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Pet corrector spray

Post by jacksdad » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:53 pm

Shalista wrote:At least to me it seems liek a really fine line between interrupting a behavior and punishing a behavior :?
this can be true.

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