Dog training tools

Discussion of useful training and pet care tools.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Post Reply
Khouji
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:04 am

Dog training tools

Post by Khouji » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm

I saw this Shock Collar which is the most common tool used when training dogs. It is Inexpensive, safe, and effective, this clever device is able to give guidance to dogs on what behaviors are right and wrong. What do you think about this training tool?
Last edited by Khouji on Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JudyN
Posts: 6870
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Dog training tools

Post by JudyN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:43 am

Welcome to the forum, Khouji.

Shock collars are now illegal in the UK, and rightly so. They can severely traumatise a dog and there are always better ways of training - you wouldn't train a child by slapping them every time they got something wrong.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Khouji
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:04 am

Re: Dog training tools

Post by Khouji » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:55 am

What do you think is the best way to train dogs?

User avatar
JudyN
Posts: 6870
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Dog training tools

Post by JudyN » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:58 pm

Positive, reward-based training all the way :D
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Khouji
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:04 am

Re: Dog training tools

Post by Khouji » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:21 am

JudyN wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:58 pm
Positive, reward-based training all the way :D
I agree with you. :)

jacksdad
Posts: 4865
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Dog training tools

Post by jacksdad » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:17 pm

Khouji wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm
I saw this Shock Collar (url removed) which is the most common tool used when training dogs.
the claim of most common is based on what?
Khouji wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm
It is Inexpensive, safe, and effective, this clever device is able to give guidance to dogs on what behaviors are right and wrong. What do you think about this training tool?
Need to be careful with the claim of safe. used per the guidance given us by the study of learning and behavior, it might be "safe" physically. But these devices even used "correctly" (meaning not causing physical injury) can still do damage to a dog. maybe not physically, though this too happens, but emotionally. There is fallout to using pain in training, and I see it several times a year in my case load. One of my current cases is a such a dog. so no, these devices are not "safe" in the way advertisements would have you believe.

The next thing we need to know before choosing to use such as device is that they are NOT designed to tell a dog they did something we want to see more of (aka what behaviors are right). They are designed to punish behavior. meaning reduce the chance of seeing a specific behavior again. They do this through pain, otherwise it would not work. this is just how the science of it works. you may not cause an injury requiring medical attention, but you are using pain. If there was no pain, then why would the dog choose to not offer a punished behavior again?

People often justify their use because they don't think positive reinforcement is strong enough to train a specific behavior. But there is a flip side...what do you do when the pain isn't "strong" enough to stop a behavior? this happens. do you simply increase the level of shock? if there is ethical questions/issues with simply using a shock collar, you can bet this situation raises the level of those concerns. this idea that you need shock to stop a behavior because hot dog isn't strong enough to keep the dog doing what you want, clearly indicates a lack of understand or knowledge of Matching Law, even in the tiniest. Another justification is "its a last resort"...really? have you explored your Matching law gotchas? have ensured the dog does in fact KNOW what it is you do want?

Now that we understand that when using a shock collar we are choosing to train with pain, we must also understand that these are not magical devices that prevent a behavior from ever showing up again. once a behavior has been learned, there is no unlearning it. it's in there and can show up at anytime. through the use of punishment we reduce the chance of seeing a behavior. through the use of positive reinforcement, we increase the chance of seeing a behavior. if a desired behavior has sufficient reinforcement history, there is a greater chance the dog will choose this wanted (aka right) behavior, thus not choosing the unwanted behavior.

The final thing to know is ... you can reduce the odds of an unwanted behavior WITHOUT pain, or using shock collar. In fact when you look at the text book for this stuff (meaning learning/behavior) in the section for decreasing unwanted behaviors...they use....wait for it...positive reinforcement applied thought the concepts of DRI, DRO, DRA. if those acronyms don't mean anything to you, then you should NOT be even thinking about a shock collar, let alone using one. When used truly correctly, you do not start with a shock collar, you start with training using positive reinforcement. this gives the dog something to choose to avoid the shock, a critical part of the process. The irony is.... if you do train correctly for using one....you do not need to use one. Please chew on that for a moment. kind of a odd little zen thing going on there. :lol:

as for inexpensive.... I clicked on the link, the cheapest was in the $80 dollar range. I could buy this book https://www.amazon.com/Train-Your-Dog-L ... +donaldson
which is probably the least expensive, clearest, most concise beginning book, based on sounds principles for how to train that you can buy AND A HUGE amount of yummy chicken breast from which to make training treats for which to reinforce the behaviors I want to the point the dog just does them for $80. depending on the size of your dog, that could several months worth of chicken as training treats. making sound positive reinforcement training actually the more cost effective approach. more food for thought.

I will not be choosing or recommending shock collars in order to train a dog. they simply are not needed.

Post Reply