considering new puppy - agression at 9 weeks?

[jbirdsd]

I have been searching for my next love.....thought I found her. Met her yesterday. 9.5 weeks old(chihuahua long coat). spent about 45 min with her....she was mostly just into exploring where we were sitting....she let me pick her up the first couple times w/o issue but not particulary interested in me and into exploring the area instead (ok). about 30 min into our meeting she was about one foot in front of me (i was sitting on floor) and I went to pick her up. and turned her around to face me but holding her about 1 foot from my face. She growled for a good 60 seconds at me....she did not want me picking her up (very clear). Her owner said, "oh, if you hold her while your standing up, she'll know she has no choice...."
It seems wierd to me that a puppy that age is growling......for any reason really.
Mother dog and father dog live there too but owner only brough out moma dog....she was playful and happy for firt couple minutes then changed her mind and began aggressive/barking at me. Owner said "oh, you must have done something to scare her"....we were all just sitting on the floor and I was just playing (I'm a foster with Chihuahua Rescue so I believe I have good enough experience to not be playing with dogs in antagonistic ways). Owner then picked up mother dog and held her (reinforcing her bad behavior), then removed mother dog.

I have put a deposit down on puppy but am now concerned sice I saw growling. All her litter mates are gone so can't describe behavrior relative to them.

anyway, please offer any feedback. I don't want to make a life long bad choice.

Also, I've put $100 deposit and drove great distance to meet her. Her mom and dad dogs papers were online and looked goodd (I checked for inbreeding). Then when I got there, the owner disclosed that when she bought dad-dog, his owner didn't disclose that he'd been inbred until last minute. She admited she might not have purchased him if she'd known. Yet there I was, having traveled and put money down and confused that I didn't get notified that dad was inbred. His parents were related so vet said there shouldn't be health issued for my pup becuase it's far enought back. Anyway, just gave me a funny feeling about breeder and made me mad she wasn't up front before put down non refundable deposit and drove out of town for dog.

anyway, would love to hear your thoughts. Am thinking seriously that even though I've lost money, it may be better not to proceed. Is it strange to you that a 9.5 week puppy would be growling when picked up??????

[Nettle]

Well, how else can the little pup tell you not to pick her up? If you (anyone) doesn't heed the growl, she doesn't have too many more manouevres before she has to bite. Not just this dog - ANY dog.

Lots of people don't realise that dogs hate being picked up until someone else tells them, maybe says how would you feel being lifted off your feet in the trunk of a woolly mammoth? and then they get the lightbulb moment

So - you scared the pup and she growled to let you know. Nothing abnormal at all.

Inbreeding - depends on the degree and how far back. So who was bred to whom?

Momma dog may have been barking for many reasons - but you aren't buying Momma dog. Most Momma dogs are none to keen on strangers touching their pups. That's nature. Moms - all Moms - are programmed to be super protective of their young.


Stay with us and ask more questions because we'd love to help you have a lovely relationship with your chi puppy, but despite your work in rescue I think you might need to find out more about puppies in order to understand her better.

[emmabeth]

The growling isnt strange - dog's dont like being picked up and you are a stranger, have done it twice already and the third time shes saying 'I don't like this, quit it'.

There are however, very few breeders who own the ideal stud dog for their b itches - the fact that a breeder owns both dogs to me shouts 'puppy farmer', in most cases (there are examples where this does not hold true of course!). That two dogs are the same breed and opposite genders does NOT mean they are the ideal match to breed from and whilst it may not matter hugely to you if you are not showing, do you really want to give your money to someone who has potentially put profit above the interests of the puppies they produce or the people they go to live with?

The fact that the b itch also has a nervous/anxious temperament and was shouting at you also suggests she was not the ideal animal to breed from and the biggest red flag here is, if the breeder owns the dog... why on EARTH couldn't you meet him????

I have bought three dogs - one of those the b itch and dog were owned by the same people (the ***** having been bought in specifically to breed to that dog!), the other two had used outside stud dogs on b itches they already owned. In the first case I was introduced to the mother, father and cousins of my pup (on several visits, with tea and cake thrown in too!!), the other two I was shown extensive photos of the fathers, working record and details of my lurchers sire, (not a registered or recognised breed but I saw his pedigree as well), all the health test results from the recognised breeds father etc etc.

So I would be wary - have the parent dogs had OFA Cardiac, OFA Patella and CERF eye tests done? If not, personally I would walk away - regardless of whether you want a show dog or a pet dog or both, anyone breeding from untested animals is only interested in lining their own pockets and nothing more.

[ladybug1802]

As has been said already, picking her up several times is something she clearly didnt like, and tried to tell you the first time, but yet you continued. Also holding her 1 foot in front of your face....very confrontational and will make her feel very uncomfortable. If a stranger got their face that close to my dogs face they woulkd have a definite bitten nose. You are 'lucky' that this little puppy is small! It isnt strange that such a young puppy growled...that is the only way they have of communicating, and it is, I'm afraid, down to you (or other humans) putting the puppy in a situation it feels uncomfortable. Sadly, too often, thishappens, then the puppy or dog gets punished for growling (communicating), which will make the behaviour worse and worse.

[jbirdsd]

Just wanted to follow up. thanks for the response. I wanted to let you all know how it went.....a sad endign sort of

I called the breeeder back and asked if she could clarify the inbreeding questions and tell me specifically how far back and who with who. I also asked her if we could meet again, if i could meet the daddy dog or if I could at least have a second meeting with the puppy. I thought maybe we could talk more in person and clarify but that I wanted to be sure it all felt right....life commitment and all.
She then started to get not only defensive but put we into a no win ultimatum. I was availabe to meet her again any time but she said she could only meet Sun. She then said, if I changed my mind and decided not to take the dog 'right now'....while we were on the phone, she'd refund my deposit but that if I wanted to wait until Sun (the only day she would allow me to meet the dog) she would not refund the deposit.
I told her I felt that wasn't entirely a successful set of options. That's I'd driven 9 hrs for the dog and had been very excited and gone to great lengths to get to her. That I thought it reasonable to have more then the 30 minutes she'd alloted me to visit with her and that a pressured ultimatum really created a bind for me. It was a lot of pressure and they always say, good breeder don't pressure buyers because ultimately they want a happy fit/home for puppy,
I asked if the puppy growled at her ever and she said yes, fairly regurlay,.....that she was very 'strong willed' but I could fix that and that meeting the puppy again really wouldn't show me anything new. (I'm thinking, why is this so difficult? is what I'm asking so unreasonable?? ) A few trainers I'd spoken with told me to go back and gave me some specific 'tests' to try to see what the growling was really about. Now the lady was making another meeting an obstacle and changing her tune.

She then went on to say that she had her own concerns and had to be careful as since I work with rescues and do dog fostering for them, I could spread bad words about her because rescues don't like breeders.
That's when I really lost it!
I drove 9 hours, inconvenienced friends to borrow a car to get to her, worked within her time contraints, met her deposit requirements, bought stuff for puppy for when she gets home, sterilized my house because puppy has only had 1 of her shots.....and she's accusing ME of being a possible risk to her????
Insane!!!
I put good money down, she gave me a 1/2 hour visit which seemed a little 'funny', waited till I traveled before disclosing inbreeding...which caused me to loose some trust. When I wanted to clarify it to be sure it felt ok, she turned the tables on me completely.
It was STUNNING.!!!
And sad....maybe the dog's is fine. She sure was cute. But there was something really NOT RIGHT with the layers of red flags about all of this.
Why would someone with nothing to hide care about what I might say to dog rescue people? why would she not let me meet her other dog? why didn't she disclose the inbreeding sooner? Why did she blame me? why did she give me ultimatums instead of peace of mind?

Ugh. Sigh.
wish I was going home with a happy story but at least I'm not going home with more head aches.

thanks. back to the hunt for my love.....

[ckranz]

Based on your description of this breeder, I would not want any of her puppies regardless of how cute or "well-bred". If this puppy is growling (not play growling) regularly there is something really wrong in what this breeder is doing. If you are looking for a good quality pup from a good breeder, I would suggest going to dog shows...both conformation and sporting shows. Conformation will help you to find breeders and various canine sporting events will help you find people who know good breeders.

I would not look for breeders on line
I would not look for breeders listed in the newspaper
I would not look for breeders in magazines like Dog Fancy or breed magazines

If the choice is between a conformation breeder or performance breeder I would personally choose performance as I like things like agility, flyball, freestyle, etc...Performance breeders are very health oriented and work hard to prevent common breed problem from being so common in their litters. Honestly take your time to find the right dog.

Also check rescue organizations, often times you can find good puppies there...especially with the chi breed.

[emmabeth]

I am so sorry it turned out like this, but, I am SO glad you had the strength and courage to question this woman and realise the truth - so many people don't, but go ahead anyway with nagging doubts and worries and often wind up having a HORRIBLE experience with their puppy who turns out to have behaviour problems, healthproblems etc etc.

Keep looking, the perfect puppy is out there and there ARE good breeders who are not total morons or just out to rip you off.

If you want a purebred, registered pedigree puppy, though I am sure it differs a little in the US this is what I would do to find one.

First of all I would check out the breed club website(s), the ones affiliated with the Kennel Club. From the breed club websites I would work out what health tests the breed needed and see if i could locate a selection of breeders to speak to.
I would also find out the dates/locations of conformation shows and try to attend those with a view to meeting and speaking to breeders/owners of the breed there.
Once I had found a breeder or two or three who I thought were sensible, answered questions honestly and were involved for the good of the breed and not money, then I would start discussing things like 'are you likely to be breeding soon'.
you
By doin this you are also likely to hear of quality pups returned to the breeder by their buyers, who may be available to rehome, and also pups run on by the breeder to show and then not suitable for showing.

All this takes time - the first time i did this it took me six YEARS to find my Deerhound! (It didn't have to take that long but stuff happened alon the way!).
I did the same for the Tibetan terrier and hewas here ina bout six months from when i first started looking.

I did the same....f or an afghan hound, and i did not get an afghan hound in the end, because from talking to people in the breed, I heard about an Afghan x Saluki who needed a home, so she came here instead of a puppy afghan (whcih i truly do not think I would have been ready for anyway!).

So the journey to find a pup can go a number of ways and it can and should, i think, take time - heck you wouldnt marry someone you met five minutes ago and some dogs live longer than alot of marriages these days!!!

[Nettle]

Respect to you for youyr decision, and I'm really glad you have your money back too. It's a shame you had all that inconvenience but that's nothing compared to twelve or so years of the wrong dog.

GOOD breeders let you visit several times and spend as long as you like with the pups. Good breeders do exist, and I hope you will find one nearer to you. Make sure you see the whole litter: it isn't possible always to see the stud dog if he doesn't live there, but it IS possible to see pedigree papers and check the breeding. Good breeders won't mind this at all.


Go easy on the "temperament tests". If they are the ones I think they are which involve manhandling the puppy and seeing how it reacts - don't do them. Any breeder who cares for their pups would show you the door if you tried - it's one of those ideas that seemed good to a scientist in a laboratory but does not translate well to real life.

All the best to you and your "as yet unseen but waiting for you" new dog

[tigerlily46514]

What an unpleasant experience for you, IF you ARE still looking for a new canine love, do take a moment to peruse the awesome dogs and puppies, in desperate need of a human like you, on Petfinder.com.

http://www.petfinder.com/index.html

(not sure what country you are in, but, many if not most countries have a similar pet-adoption website).

GOOD LUCK!!!