I posted once already, really need help urgently. I need a step by step action plan/daily/weekly/advancing the training. I have been sick for about a month/asthma; unable to walk my 90-100 lb rescue Germ Shep/Lab mix 2 yr old, Heidi. No one else in family of 4 will walk her.
About August last year, she got off the 30 foot lead in front of our house (broke it in 3 places) to get to another small dog. She danced around barking and lunging at the dog, and the owner & Dog were terrified.
I felt helpless & awful. Tried to grab her, get her to chase me away, leave it, etc. I finally got her collar.
She has never bitten anyone or other dog as of yet, and we want to avoid this. She also dragged me across the narrow paved dog trail to get to another dog. I had skinned knees through my thick jeans. I am 120 lbs. She was trained in dominance fashion with a local trainer, who had us use a prong collar. My older son (21) also walked Heidi with my husband around this time, and instead of using 2 leashes, he insisted on using the one with the prong collar that comes off. It came off, and she once again danced around another small dog and its elderly owner.
This frightened my son and my husband so much they go now on nightly walks without her.
I took Heidi to training weekly (for many months last year) until a few months ago when these incidents happened, and her behaviors were worsening. I walked her at a local cemetery until Dec 8th when I got sick. The cemetery makes it easy to see in advance & avoid other dogs.
She also reacts to people, particularly men, but both sexes when they approach quickly. She has a strong prey drive.
She constantly fights for domination over our 10 year old standard poodle, no breaking the skin bites, but rough play and jumping on her back which we constantly discourage. She is very well crate trained, and spends all her time inside the house, unless she wants to go out.
We were taught by the same trainer to spray water in her face when she jumps on Bridget our poodle, and other obnoxious things.
We have since returned to the gentle leader, use 2 leashes for insurance, and no longer use the spray bottle, or other dominating methods. I am getting stronger and want to start walking her again soon as I am well.
Needless to say I am furious at my family for refusing to help. My younger son, 17, did go with me to dog reactive classes and puppy classes, but now refuses to walk her after his own experience with her reactive behaviors.
I have a lot of experience with animals, but not as a trainer of dogs. I volunteer at a wildlife hospital and rehabilitate wild birds/raise baby birds at my home.
Heidi is exceptionally intelligent. I believe she is insecure, wants to play with some dogs - sees others as a threat - and some as prey. It's a mixed bag. I took her to two puppy training classes prior to the ongoing dog reactive classes. She did really well til she hit the "teenage" stage, and there was a lapse in the classes/none offered for her age, til she became reactive, and we found the reactive dog class.
The trainer is very nice, and good with dogs, and told the class she was using the new positive enforcement training.
But the training was using the prong collar/jerking the leash using the leave it command, however using a lot of praise when she did things correctly -- and giving treats. She has a lot of experience with shepherds and even did shepherd rescue so we trusted her.
Should I go back to her and see if she's open to strictly positive training? She did a class with obstacles that Heidi could advance to. I need a step by step action plan/daily/weekly/advancing the training. Please help.
Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Hiya,
Firstly I know it is incredibly cheeky of me, but I have edited your post to include paragraphs/line breaks as I and a couple of our other experienced posters really struggle to read big chunks of text on a monitor (not your fault, its just harder to read on a screen than on a page). I do hope you don't mind, as this will help you get more responses.
You are right to discontinue the training classes, for now even if the trainer would entertain using purely positive reward based methods rather than punishment (which is SO confusing for the dog, because one minute they are meant to avoid being punished, the next they are supposed to try out behaviours and seek reward, you can't do the two things at the same time because trying to seek reward means risking getting punished!!), her stress levels are probably too high for you to really get the best work out of her/for her to learn the best she can.
It is exceedingly frustrating when family members who presumably also wanted the dog and are happy when the dog is easy to manage, will not help, but its incredibly common too - your only option is to lead by example. Once they see you making progress, you have a much better chance of getting them to help. Right now if they will not do what you are doing they will only make her worse anyway and so their help wil not be any help at all!
At home - with your older dog, I think you need to seperate them more and supervise them more closely when they are together. Try and make most of the time they are together time spent working with you and someone else in the household (so its one person, one dog, the other person can work with the older easier dog) so they associate time spent together with workin and reward. I say this because your Poodle is getting elderly and because t hey are both bitches there is a high chance that this could turn into fights or the younger one attacking the older. Unfortunately it is very instinctive for a younger ***** to try to oust the older onewhen the older one becomes infirm and frail, and when its bitches they don't do this in a subtle way but in a violent and dangerous way.
I think you are pretty correct that Heidi is insecure, anxious, frustrated and excited on seeing other dogs - you are also right that to continue trying to use dominance/punishment techniques is very unwise. The chances are that will teach her not to trust you, and to associate the triggers for her behaviour with unpleasant things, which will only make things worse.
If you didn't already, chuck the prong collar in the trash. It only 'works' when it hurts and at the same time it will be increasing her frustration when shes pulling - imagine something that tightens around your neck when you are already worked up - you would fight it! Even if you learned not to because it hurt, it would still increase the unpleasant feelings and associatiosn with that particular situation, not decrease them.
Walking in a place where you can spot other dogs and avoid them before she sees them is a REALLY good idea. Other people may try to tell you that you are avoiding the issue but this is not really the case. What you are doing is reducing her stress levels and working inside the 'safe' zone she can cope with. Try to avoid things before she reacts and if she sees but does not react (regardless of whether htat is because you took evasive action or distracted her in some way), reward her really well. IF she wont take rewards/fuss/toys then thats a clue that you are working at too high a level for her to cope, so make it a little easier.
If you keep this up (and its much much easier to do shorter walks, more frequently, than to try to ensure total success on one or two longer walks!), you should find that she comes to trustYOU to deal with these things rather than feeling that shes got to deal wtih them herself. If you are struggling to hold her, I would recommend two leashes, one to a chest attachment harness such as an Easywalk, the other to a flat collar (or if you really must, a double ended one to the chest AND back ring of a harness and a single ended leash to the headcollar). Headcollars can be useful, but be very careful to only use it to redirect her head when you need to, so if she lunges she DOESNT hit the end of the headcollar leash first (or she risks neck damage). Harnesses like the easywalk where you can attach the lead in the centre of the chest are great because the dog will really struggle to pull or lunge you off your feet in them.
As well as avoiding other dogs/people, your focus should be on loose leash walking (check out our thread on this in the articles section of the forum) - the method we prefer puts the onus on the dog to pay attention to you and keep the leash slack. If they step ahead of where you want them tobe, but BEFORE they put any pressure on the leash, you about turn and march the other way, which the dog is surprised by and finds unrewarding. Again this is much more easily stuck to (and consistency is SO important) if you break the exercise time down into 10 minute chunks rather than setting out to achieve an unrealistic goal such as a 1 hour walk, or a specific route.
It does mean you will be walking up and down the same bit of your street for a while, but this is no bad thing (even if your neighbours DO think you are crazy). For one thing, concentrating hard on working WITH you is extremely hard work and thus very tiring for the dog. For another it makes walks a lot less exciting and reduces the stress that way (because there are a lot of walks, but you never really go anywhere!).
For now, stick to loose leash walking, where she is responsible for keeping the lead loose and the harness and headcollar are htere for 'insurance' purposes only, and NOT the reason she walks nicely, and avoiding other animals/people. Have a read through our Success stories area and in particular click on 'jacksdad's name and read through his threads about his journey with Jack, his previously incredibly reactive dog.
Inside the house, try clicker training (we have a thread on that too in the articles section, and also look at www.clickertraining.com) - it doesnt really matter WHAT you teach with this, if you havent done it before I would start out teaching a totally new behaviour shes never done previously, as dogs who have been trained with punishment can be very worried by the idea of trying out new behaviour to see what works, and they may well associate old commands with punishments for non compliance.
Clicker training can work wonders, especially with a dogs confidence in themselves and in you. Think about if you had a teacher who was really supportive but helped you figure things out for yourself. If you were lucky enough to have a teacher like that, you don't ever forget them! Compare that (if you hado ne, I hope you did!) to feelings about teachers who never really helped or rewarded you for being right, but just concentrated on punishing you or making you feel dumb for being wrong. Its a very different set of emotions!
As well as the clicker training (which again should be in small short sessions several times a day, 5 minutes is plenty!), also look at the 'its yer choice' thread (theres a video of the same name on youtube whcih is linked in the thread), which is about teaching self control/impulse control to dogs. This video uses food but once you have seen how it works you will realise you can apply the same method to toys and other things too, such as getting to go out the front door, getting to greet another person or dog.
I would work on these things for at least two weeks, keep us updated as to how you are getting on and of course any questions, worries etc - we LIKE questions, we NEVER want people to stop asking questions! Once you have done the above for a while you will learn quite a lot about your dog, and about yourself and then we can help you with how to progress onto the next stage which will be desensitizing her to other dogs/people.
Firstly I know it is incredibly cheeky of me, but I have edited your post to include paragraphs/line breaks as I and a couple of our other experienced posters really struggle to read big chunks of text on a monitor (not your fault, its just harder to read on a screen than on a page). I do hope you don't mind, as this will help you get more responses.
You are right to discontinue the training classes, for now even if the trainer would entertain using purely positive reward based methods rather than punishment (which is SO confusing for the dog, because one minute they are meant to avoid being punished, the next they are supposed to try out behaviours and seek reward, you can't do the two things at the same time because trying to seek reward means risking getting punished!!), her stress levels are probably too high for you to really get the best work out of her/for her to learn the best she can.
It is exceedingly frustrating when family members who presumably also wanted the dog and are happy when the dog is easy to manage, will not help, but its incredibly common too - your only option is to lead by example. Once they see you making progress, you have a much better chance of getting them to help. Right now if they will not do what you are doing they will only make her worse anyway and so their help wil not be any help at all!
At home - with your older dog, I think you need to seperate them more and supervise them more closely when they are together. Try and make most of the time they are together time spent working with you and someone else in the household (so its one person, one dog, the other person can work with the older easier dog) so they associate time spent together with workin and reward. I say this because your Poodle is getting elderly and because t hey are both bitches there is a high chance that this could turn into fights or the younger one attacking the older. Unfortunately it is very instinctive for a younger ***** to try to oust the older onewhen the older one becomes infirm and frail, and when its bitches they don't do this in a subtle way but in a violent and dangerous way.
I think you are pretty correct that Heidi is insecure, anxious, frustrated and excited on seeing other dogs - you are also right that to continue trying to use dominance/punishment techniques is very unwise. The chances are that will teach her not to trust you, and to associate the triggers for her behaviour with unpleasant things, which will only make things worse.
If you didn't already, chuck the prong collar in the trash. It only 'works' when it hurts and at the same time it will be increasing her frustration when shes pulling - imagine something that tightens around your neck when you are already worked up - you would fight it! Even if you learned not to because it hurt, it would still increase the unpleasant feelings and associatiosn with that particular situation, not decrease them.
Walking in a place where you can spot other dogs and avoid them before she sees them is a REALLY good idea. Other people may try to tell you that you are avoiding the issue but this is not really the case. What you are doing is reducing her stress levels and working inside the 'safe' zone she can cope with. Try to avoid things before she reacts and if she sees but does not react (regardless of whether htat is because you took evasive action or distracted her in some way), reward her really well. IF she wont take rewards/fuss/toys then thats a clue that you are working at too high a level for her to cope, so make it a little easier.
If you keep this up (and its much much easier to do shorter walks, more frequently, than to try to ensure total success on one or two longer walks!), you should find that she comes to trustYOU to deal with these things rather than feeling that shes got to deal wtih them herself. If you are struggling to hold her, I would recommend two leashes, one to a chest attachment harness such as an Easywalk, the other to a flat collar (or if you really must, a double ended one to the chest AND back ring of a harness and a single ended leash to the headcollar). Headcollars can be useful, but be very careful to only use it to redirect her head when you need to, so if she lunges she DOESNT hit the end of the headcollar leash first (or she risks neck damage). Harnesses like the easywalk where you can attach the lead in the centre of the chest are great because the dog will really struggle to pull or lunge you off your feet in them.
As well as avoiding other dogs/people, your focus should be on loose leash walking (check out our thread on this in the articles section of the forum) - the method we prefer puts the onus on the dog to pay attention to you and keep the leash slack. If they step ahead of where you want them tobe, but BEFORE they put any pressure on the leash, you about turn and march the other way, which the dog is surprised by and finds unrewarding. Again this is much more easily stuck to (and consistency is SO important) if you break the exercise time down into 10 minute chunks rather than setting out to achieve an unrealistic goal such as a 1 hour walk, or a specific route.
It does mean you will be walking up and down the same bit of your street for a while, but this is no bad thing (even if your neighbours DO think you are crazy). For one thing, concentrating hard on working WITH you is extremely hard work and thus very tiring for the dog. For another it makes walks a lot less exciting and reduces the stress that way (because there are a lot of walks, but you never really go anywhere!).
For now, stick to loose leash walking, where she is responsible for keeping the lead loose and the harness and headcollar are htere for 'insurance' purposes only, and NOT the reason she walks nicely, and avoiding other animals/people. Have a read through our Success stories area and in particular click on 'jacksdad's name and read through his threads about his journey with Jack, his previously incredibly reactive dog.
Inside the house, try clicker training (we have a thread on that too in the articles section, and also look at www.clickertraining.com) - it doesnt really matter WHAT you teach with this, if you havent done it before I would start out teaching a totally new behaviour shes never done previously, as dogs who have been trained with punishment can be very worried by the idea of trying out new behaviour to see what works, and they may well associate old commands with punishments for non compliance.
Clicker training can work wonders, especially with a dogs confidence in themselves and in you. Think about if you had a teacher who was really supportive but helped you figure things out for yourself. If you were lucky enough to have a teacher like that, you don't ever forget them! Compare that (if you hado ne, I hope you did!) to feelings about teachers who never really helped or rewarded you for being right, but just concentrated on punishing you or making you feel dumb for being wrong. Its a very different set of emotions!
As well as the clicker training (which again should be in small short sessions several times a day, 5 minutes is plenty!), also look at the 'its yer choice' thread (theres a video of the same name on youtube whcih is linked in the thread), which is about teaching self control/impulse control to dogs. This video uses food but once you have seen how it works you will realise you can apply the same method to toys and other things too, such as getting to go out the front door, getting to greet another person or dog.
I would work on these things for at least two weeks, keep us updated as to how you are getting on and of course any questions, worries etc - we LIKE questions, we NEVER want people to stop asking questions! Once you have done the above for a while you will learn quite a lot about your dog, and about yourself and then we can help you with how to progress onto the next stage which will be desensitizing her to other dogs/people.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Welcome, Lisa and know your not alone. Starting out it's easy to feel that way and to be overwhelmed. hang in there it does get better.
Emma gives some great get starting advice, and I think it's important to emphasize the get starting point. people often thing this starting point is how it will be forever, it's not.
there are several of us here with reactive dogs, so we know, we get it. So don't hesitate to ask questions, vent frustration etc. it's what this board is for.
Emma gives some great get starting advice, and I think it's important to emphasize the get starting point. people often thing this starting point is how it will be forever, it's not.
there are several of us here with reactive dogs, so we know, we get it. So don't hesitate to ask questions, vent frustration etc. it's what this board is for.
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Dear Emmabeth & Jacksdad,
I have written some articles for Examiner.com on birds so I should know to keep the format reader-friendly! Thanks for reformatting it, Emmabeth. Here's one of my articles:
http://www.examiner.com/bird-in-san-fra ... ion-season
WOW, I feel like it's my birthday reading your post, Emmabeth. You gave me excellent instructions, and that is what I was looking for. I have the patience it takes, and the determination to follow through so I have hope things will turn around. I will never give up on an animal. Thank you so much for taking the time to so thoroughly explain everything in detail.
Since I am not 100% the 10 minute walks will work wonderfully. We can build up to the hour long walks later on. She has tremendous energy, and it would be fantastic if I could in the future take her on bike rides safely.
We have a gate up allowing the dogs to roam in half the house, a large 400 square foot family room and adjacent large pantry. We let Bridget hang out with our cat in the other half the house, and now that you suggest this, we will separate them (and train both) regularly. Heidi plays the roughest when she is outside. We have Bridget go out by herself and have Heidi wait in her crate while Bridget uses the outdoor area. We should monitor their behavior when they are outside together more often. They typically only go out to go potty, but also to fetch, and they have a long probably over 50 foot dog run with a sand box for potty. We have 1/3rd acre, big for Calif standards (lol), so I could setup an obstacle course for Heidi, outside the dog run. She was doing some jumps and moving through an obstacle course in the reactive dog class.
I look forward to reading the articles you suggested by jacksdad. Sounds like great info. Thank you, Jacksdad, for posting your articles, and for responding and giving me encouragement. I appreciate it.
I am going to printout your article, and do these things step by step, first getting the appropriate harness, making more of my liver treats, and begin the training.
Have a great day! Lisa Hillier
I have written some articles for Examiner.com on birds so I should know to keep the format reader-friendly! Thanks for reformatting it, Emmabeth. Here's one of my articles:
http://www.examiner.com/bird-in-san-fra ... ion-season
WOW, I feel like it's my birthday reading your post, Emmabeth. You gave me excellent instructions, and that is what I was looking for. I have the patience it takes, and the determination to follow through so I have hope things will turn around. I will never give up on an animal. Thank you so much for taking the time to so thoroughly explain everything in detail.
Since I am not 100% the 10 minute walks will work wonderfully. We can build up to the hour long walks later on. She has tremendous energy, and it would be fantastic if I could in the future take her on bike rides safely.
We have a gate up allowing the dogs to roam in half the house, a large 400 square foot family room and adjacent large pantry. We let Bridget hang out with our cat in the other half the house, and now that you suggest this, we will separate them (and train both) regularly. Heidi plays the roughest when she is outside. We have Bridget go out by herself and have Heidi wait in her crate while Bridget uses the outdoor area. We should monitor their behavior when they are outside together more often. They typically only go out to go potty, but also to fetch, and they have a long probably over 50 foot dog run with a sand box for potty. We have 1/3rd acre, big for Calif standards (lol), so I could setup an obstacle course for Heidi, outside the dog run. She was doing some jumps and moving through an obstacle course in the reactive dog class.
I look forward to reading the articles you suggested by jacksdad. Sounds like great info. Thank you, Jacksdad, for posting your articles, and for responding and giving me encouragement. I appreciate it.
I am going to printout your article, and do these things step by step, first getting the appropriate harness, making more of my liver treats, and begin the training.
Have a great day! Lisa Hillier
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Hi there, few questions. I have been online all day, ugh. 
Ordered Easywalk, clickers, and new toy, read jacksdog posts, checked out clickertraining.com, and checked walkeez harnesses.
Walkeez harnesses look fantastic. Very expensive, $50 aprox with shipping, but well worth it if they fit. Heidi is 36 inches in her chest. Big gal. I will try sewing soft socks to the underside of the easywalk if it rubs on her. I saw online the easywalks run large, so I ordered a large -- hopefully that will work, but it wasn't costly to buy a size larger if not. My order will come probably within a week. I may get a walkeez in the future.
Am I correct in waiting for the harness, and clickers before beginning training?
Should I introduce the clicker first, treating to make the positive association, before going on walks with the harness also? Maybe introduce the clicker for 2 days, then begin with clicker and walks?
Heidi knows the following real well: "leave it" (even leaving a treat on her paw until we say "take it,)" "sit," "sit, stay," "down & down,stay," "come," "stand," and "stand/stay," "wait," "heel," "watch me," "kisses," "off," "gentle," "drop it," "go get it," "calm." These were all trained with positive rewards: treats, good girl, and love pats. She did not learn "roll over" or "shake" although we tried. She gets into a "finish" position by my side really well. I am wondering which behavior I should work on with the clicker. Should I maybe start with the nose "touch" that Victoria demonstrates?
I could develop a plan to walk her in the morning 1-2 times, lunchtime 1-2 times, and evening 1-2 times for the 10 minute walks. Is it important to try to stick to a routine, I know animals do best with routines? Let me know if this is too much. I would be training her in 5 min intervals in the same time blocks, but spaced out to give her a break.
Should I let her run around the backyard fetching and get some energy out before walks?
I live in a housing development, close to an elementary school on a very busy street. Lots of dogs and people walking at various times. There is no place in my area that's close and empty. The cemetery is about a 15 minute drive, so that's not realistic. I don't think I have a choice but to walk her in my neighborhood, if I am going to do it several times per day, and only for 10 minutes. I have some fears based on when she got free off the 30 foot lead in front of our house. We now have a horse lead that is 20-30 feet instead, and I haven't used it yet.
Thanks so much for all your help.
Lisa and Miss Heidi
Ordered Easywalk, clickers, and new toy, read jacksdog posts, checked out clickertraining.com, and checked walkeez harnesses. Walkeez harnesses look fantastic. Very expensive, $50 aprox with shipping, but well worth it if they fit. Heidi is 36 inches in her chest. Big gal. I will try sewing soft socks to the underside of the easywalk if it rubs on her. I saw online the easywalks run large, so I ordered a large -- hopefully that will work, but it wasn't costly to buy a size larger if not. My order will come probably within a week. I may get a walkeez in the future.
Am I correct in waiting for the harness, and clickers before beginning training?
Should I introduce the clicker first, treating to make the positive association, before going on walks with the harness also? Maybe introduce the clicker for 2 days, then begin with clicker and walks?
Heidi knows the following real well: "leave it" (even leaving a treat on her paw until we say "take it,)" "sit," "sit, stay," "down & down,stay," "come," "stand," and "stand/stay," "wait," "heel," "watch me," "kisses," "off," "gentle," "drop it," "go get it," "calm." These were all trained with positive rewards: treats, good girl, and love pats. She did not learn "roll over" or "shake" although we tried. She gets into a "finish" position by my side really well. I am wondering which behavior I should work on with the clicker. Should I maybe start with the nose "touch" that Victoria demonstrates?
I could develop a plan to walk her in the morning 1-2 times, lunchtime 1-2 times, and evening 1-2 times for the 10 minute walks. Is it important to try to stick to a routine, I know animals do best with routines? Let me know if this is too much. I would be training her in 5 min intervals in the same time blocks, but spaced out to give her a break.
Should I let her run around the backyard fetching and get some energy out before walks?
I live in a housing development, close to an elementary school on a very busy street. Lots of dogs and people walking at various times. There is no place in my area that's close and empty. The cemetery is about a 15 minute drive, so that's not realistic. I don't think I have a choice but to walk her in my neighborhood, if I am going to do it several times per day, and only for 10 minutes. I have some fears based on when she got free off the 30 foot lead in front of our house. We now have a horse lead that is 20-30 feet instead, and I haven't used it yet.
Thanks so much for all your help.
Lisa and Miss Heidi
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
I would introduce the harness and the clicker on the same day, but in different sessions.
It doesn't really matter which one you do first, the clicker is probably going to take a few days of conditioning her that click = 'treat is coming' so if you start that straight away hopefully in a few days you can be training actual 'stuff' with it.
The harness, I would set out to have her be happy around it, sniffing it, wearing it and walking around the house and yard wearing it on and off leash for the first couple of days before you head out on a walk with it on.
Reward her well for wearing it so she associates this with really positive, good stuff. Use as rewards whatever she REALLY loves best - theres no point using mediocre treats here! Onces shes got the idea that theres treats involved you can vary the value of them (so have a pocket of mixed treats, some boring kibble, some medium value stuff, some really high value stuff, so that you are a fruit machine, not a vending machine... sometimes you pay out small, sometimes she hits the jackpot either with quality/value, or quantity).
The clicker training you might REALLY struggle with and it may help you to write down your goals before a session and then keep a record of what actually happened in the session - its hard anyway but since you are coming to this from previous experience of using a method that tends to rely on telling the dog the command first, and then punishment when they get it wrong it REALLY messes with your head at first, having the dog do the behaviour first, and only adding the cue or command word when the dog KNOWs what behaviour is wanted.
One of the best things you can do in a clicker session... is Shut The Heck Up. We humans talk FAR too much, yatter yatter yatter, all the time. Dogs dont. Keep the chat to a minimum. YOu may need to encourage quietly and softly so she knows shes on the right track, (although really if she needs that, you should be clicking more frequently for smaller criteria!), you may need to use a slightly sad disappointed tone 'Too bad' when she heads off on the wrong idea (though ideally you find a way to set her up to do what you want to do without going wrong), because you may find shes so used to these things, without them she is a bit lost.
Once she clearly understand that theclick means you are gonna give her a treat, then you can pick, either 'paw' or 'touch' (target the hand with the nose) are good starting points.
Touch is easy because most dogs are going to sniff your hand if it is offered to them, even if its for a split second. Paw is easier done with a treat inside the hand to start off with but if your dog doesnt cope with frustration all that well I would not use this one (as you would only click for her lifting or touching with her paw, and so there is potential for her to fail by tryin it with her nose, and most dogs will try with the nose first!), because not getting it right almost immediately might really upset her.
Take things slow - be sensitive to the fact that changing the rules and doing things a new way, even if it is a much better, nicer way, is still hard and confusing for a dog at firt (just look how PEOPLE behave when you change something about their working habits or home environment for the better... they whinge and moan like you would not believe!).
Routine is a funny thing - some aspects of routine and consistancy are REALLY really good for animals (and people). Some aspects of routine can create huge problems.
For example, set up a rigid routine for potty breaks for a dog - and then break that routine for some unavoidable reason - the result is likely one very distressed dog.
Keep consistancy around certain things though, for instance 'walk ALWAYS means not pulling' and 'greeting human ALWAYS means park butt on floor' - those are good things to be routine and consistant about.
I would not stick to a hard and fast 'training times' routine, because there is a high chance you wont be able to stick to those times every single day, and it can be upsetting for the dog when you dont. I would aim to achieve two or three sessions a day though because obviously being consistent in providing brain-exercise each day is a really good thing.
DO let her run arond and get her energy out before walks - but try to end the 'whizzing about' session on something a bit more calming so that you have a satisfied but not over-tired dog to work with, not one who is either bouncing out of her skin having done nothing all day, and not one frazzled from actin totally wired and geed up for the last half hour either.
Do set yourself up to succeed - making it EASY to get things RIGHT is not cheating. We do the same with kids in pre-school, make it easy, make it fun, make it rewarding, and you find that success breeds more success. On the other hand make it too hard, not that rewarding and not much fun.... will create failure which doesnt make you OR the dog feel good about anything.
It doesn't really matter which one you do first, the clicker is probably going to take a few days of conditioning her that click = 'treat is coming' so if you start that straight away hopefully in a few days you can be training actual 'stuff' with it.
The harness, I would set out to have her be happy around it, sniffing it, wearing it and walking around the house and yard wearing it on and off leash for the first couple of days before you head out on a walk with it on.
Reward her well for wearing it so she associates this with really positive, good stuff. Use as rewards whatever she REALLY loves best - theres no point using mediocre treats here! Onces shes got the idea that theres treats involved you can vary the value of them (so have a pocket of mixed treats, some boring kibble, some medium value stuff, some really high value stuff, so that you are a fruit machine, not a vending machine... sometimes you pay out small, sometimes she hits the jackpot either with quality/value, or quantity).
The clicker training you might REALLY struggle with and it may help you to write down your goals before a session and then keep a record of what actually happened in the session - its hard anyway but since you are coming to this from previous experience of using a method that tends to rely on telling the dog the command first, and then punishment when they get it wrong it REALLY messes with your head at first, having the dog do the behaviour first, and only adding the cue or command word when the dog KNOWs what behaviour is wanted.
One of the best things you can do in a clicker session... is Shut The Heck Up. We humans talk FAR too much, yatter yatter yatter, all the time. Dogs dont. Keep the chat to a minimum. YOu may need to encourage quietly and softly so she knows shes on the right track, (although really if she needs that, you should be clicking more frequently for smaller criteria!), you may need to use a slightly sad disappointed tone 'Too bad' when she heads off on the wrong idea (though ideally you find a way to set her up to do what you want to do without going wrong), because you may find shes so used to these things, without them she is a bit lost.
Once she clearly understand that theclick means you are gonna give her a treat, then you can pick, either 'paw' or 'touch' (target the hand with the nose) are good starting points.
Touch is easy because most dogs are going to sniff your hand if it is offered to them, even if its for a split second. Paw is easier done with a treat inside the hand to start off with but if your dog doesnt cope with frustration all that well I would not use this one (as you would only click for her lifting or touching with her paw, and so there is potential for her to fail by tryin it with her nose, and most dogs will try with the nose first!), because not getting it right almost immediately might really upset her.
Take things slow - be sensitive to the fact that changing the rules and doing things a new way, even if it is a much better, nicer way, is still hard and confusing for a dog at firt (just look how PEOPLE behave when you change something about their working habits or home environment for the better... they whinge and moan like you would not believe!).
Routine is a funny thing - some aspects of routine and consistancy are REALLY really good for animals (and people). Some aspects of routine can create huge problems.
For example, set up a rigid routine for potty breaks for a dog - and then break that routine for some unavoidable reason - the result is likely one very distressed dog.
Keep consistancy around certain things though, for instance 'walk ALWAYS means not pulling' and 'greeting human ALWAYS means park butt on floor' - those are good things to be routine and consistant about.
I would not stick to a hard and fast 'training times' routine, because there is a high chance you wont be able to stick to those times every single day, and it can be upsetting for the dog when you dont. I would aim to achieve two or three sessions a day though because obviously being consistent in providing brain-exercise each day is a really good thing.
DO let her run arond and get her energy out before walks - but try to end the 'whizzing about' session on something a bit more calming so that you have a satisfied but not over-tired dog to work with, not one who is either bouncing out of her skin having done nothing all day, and not one frazzled from actin totally wired and geed up for the last half hour either.
Do set yourself up to succeed - making it EASY to get things RIGHT is not cheating. We do the same with kids in pre-school, make it easy, make it fun, make it rewarding, and you find that success breeds more success. On the other hand make it too hard, not that rewarding and not much fun.... will create failure which doesnt make you OR the dog feel good about anything.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Here are two sources for the walkeez harness
http://www.oregonpetsupply.com/x_harnesses.php
http://www.allpetnaturals.com/60-walkee ... rness.html
both should get to you for well under $50. I ordered mine back in july from allpetnaturals, total to my door $38.00. oregonpetsupply can beat that by $3.
is your 1/3 archer fenced. if so, I am never talking to you again...*stomps off jealous*.....just kidding. I also live in California so I know how lucky you are to have that space.
http://www.oregonpetsupply.com/x_harnesses.php
http://www.allpetnaturals.com/60-walkee ... rness.html
both should get to you for well under $50. I ordered mine back in july from allpetnaturals, total to my door $38.00. oregonpetsupply can beat that by $3.
is your 1/3 archer fenced. if so, I am never talking to you again...*stomps off jealous*.....just kidding. I also live in California so I know how lucky you are to have that space.
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Hello and thank you for the replies, again.
Yes our yard is fenced, and so is the dog run, because Heidi desecrated my raised beds! But half our yard is in the front unfenced
Thank you for the info on the halters. I have been to those sites. Heidi needs size 7. With shipping it's $49.95. She's a big girl. Everything is expensive, you should see our dog food bills
I still think they are worth the price, and will probably buy one in the future. They're really well made.
While I wait for my order I can bone up on the clickertraining on the website you provided. I DVR IMOTD, and I have seen Victoria show owners how to use the training. I can watch those again & again too.
I can't figure out how to downsize a pic to upload it here, and I assume if this is not appropriate someone will delete the link below, although there is no inappropriate content. here are some photos of Heidi (the GS -including her as a young pup), Bridget the poodle, Pizza Puff the calico cat, R2D2 the Meyer's Parrot (hanging off the bed w/the cat), a few of the birds I raised and/or rehabbed, my youngest son, my mom & me, husband and me, etc. We got all our mammals when they were babes, but the parrot was a rescue at age 4. She plucks so she looks like a baby bird.
The wild birds in the photo are crows (they have blue eyes when babies), and a Savannah sparrow on my finger. All wild birds were released when ready/healthy.
http://s1001.photobucket.com/home/QuittyCat/index
Lisa
Yes our yard is fenced, and so is the dog run, because Heidi desecrated my raised beds! But half our yard is in the front unfenced
Thank you for the info on the halters. I have been to those sites. Heidi needs size 7. With shipping it's $49.95. She's a big girl. Everything is expensive, you should see our dog food bills
I still think they are worth the price, and will probably buy one in the future. They're really well made. While I wait for my order I can bone up on the clickertraining on the website you provided. I DVR IMOTD, and I have seen Victoria show owners how to use the training. I can watch those again & again too.
I can't figure out how to downsize a pic to upload it here, and I assume if this is not appropriate someone will delete the link below, although there is no inappropriate content. here are some photos of Heidi (the GS -including her as a young pup), Bridget the poodle, Pizza Puff the calico cat, R2D2 the Meyer's Parrot (hanging off the bed w/the cat), a few of the birds I raised and/or rehabbed, my youngest son, my mom & me, husband and me, etc. We got all our mammals when they were babes, but the parrot was a rescue at age 4. She plucks so she looks like a baby bird.
The wild birds in the photo are crows (they have blue eyes when babies), and a Savannah sparrow on my finger. All wild birds were released when ready/healthy.
http://s1001.photobucket.com/home/QuittyCat/index
Lisa
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Thank you for your suggestions, encouragement & advice. Today the package came with the harness, clickers, and toy. It was a day early so I was excited.
I started the clicker training with Heidi. Bridget joined in. I can understand why you suggested having another family member train Bridget while I work with Heidi. It was challenging; however both girls did well learning "touch." I must say, Bridget did better. Standard poodles use their noses a lot to get your attention, and Bridget does this often, so she was a natural. If my sons continue to refuse to help train Bridget while I work with Heidi, I can put Bridget in her crate or work with Heidi outside. Both dogs love being in their crates. I got a book from the library on clicker training, which had Karen Pryor's name on the front cover, "Clicking with Your Dog" by Peggy Tillman. It was easy to read and follow.
Later tonight, I will bring the clicker out again for another training session and hopefully get someone to give Bridget attention. And put the harness on Heidi again. I attached the clicker to a curly cord I got in Tahoe for holding a player's card. I like it because it stretches easily and is really lightweight.
I put the harness on Heidi, it is the Easy Walk Harness. The large fits her well, with adjustments to the front straps, even though measuring her suggested she fit into an extra large, I did a lot of reading before ordering and they run larger. She enjoyed having it on. I kept it on her for about 10-15 minutes, then took it off with the buckles. I was surprised the ring for the leash is in the front, not on her back. I don't remember this being the case seeing Victoria using harnesses on her show, but I will give it a try. I will give Heidi a few days with the harness on til she gets used to it before attempting to walk her.
Lisa
I started the clicker training with Heidi. Bridget joined in. I can understand why you suggested having another family member train Bridget while I work with Heidi. It was challenging; however both girls did well learning "touch." I must say, Bridget did better. Standard poodles use their noses a lot to get your attention, and Bridget does this often, so she was a natural. If my sons continue to refuse to help train Bridget while I work with Heidi, I can put Bridget in her crate or work with Heidi outside. Both dogs love being in their crates. I got a book from the library on clicker training, which had Karen Pryor's name on the front cover, "Clicking with Your Dog" by Peggy Tillman. It was easy to read and follow.
Later tonight, I will bring the clicker out again for another training session and hopefully get someone to give Bridget attention. And put the harness on Heidi again. I attached the clicker to a curly cord I got in Tahoe for holding a player's card. I like it because it stretches easily and is really lightweight.
I put the harness on Heidi, it is the Easy Walk Harness. The large fits her well, with adjustments to the front straps, even though measuring her suggested she fit into an extra large, I did a lot of reading before ordering and they run larger. She enjoyed having it on. I kept it on her for about 10-15 minutes, then took it off with the buckles. I was surprised the ring for the leash is in the front, not on her back. I don't remember this being the case seeing Victoria using harnesses on her show, but I will give it a try. I will give Heidi a few days with the harness on til she gets used to it before attempting to walk her.
Lisa
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
I have been very sick since Dec 8th, and am finally getting my strength back. The clicker training is going very well. I am having her touch my palm high up in the air, at her level, down low, and on different objects like her leash. She loves it. I also click when she gets the commands she knows correct. I am now ready to start the loose leash training. There are other dogs on and off leash being walked, or sitting in front yards in our neighborhood at all hours. My husband was badly bitten by one a few years back, and we've been chased by others. Lots of negligent owners, or those who think they can control their dogs. Emmabeth, you suggested we avoid other dogs to start the training in a stress free environment. The only place I have good site vision of other dogs is the cemetery. It is a 15 minute drive. Honestly I am terrified of Heidi knocking me off balance & dragging me again towards another dog. I am willing to do anything to train her and help her overcome her fears. Should I drive for 15 min to this safe location for only 10 min of training, or perhaps train for 10, play on the long 30' horse lead, and train for another 10? Any ideas are welcome.
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
If it is quite dog free, then yes I would go there - do 5 minutes of one thing, five minutes of another, and so on, have breaks and sit back in the car and give her a Kong toy or somethingto chew on whilst you read a magazine, and then go and do another five or ten minutes of something.
Break up the 'somethings' so say you might play ball, or train, or walk about on a long loose leash letting her sniff the smells, or clicker train...
I wouldnt do one thing, break, then go back to that same thing again, because that could be too intense, but if you drove over there twice a day for 3/4 of an hour, and did 10 minutes of something. Sat and rested for 20, and then another ten minutes of something different.. that would be awesome I think!
Break up the 'somethings' so say you might play ball, or train, or walk about on a long loose leash letting her sniff the smells, or clicker train...
I wouldnt do one thing, break, then go back to that same thing again, because that could be too intense, but if you drove over there twice a day for 3/4 of an hour, and did 10 minutes of something. Sat and rested for 20, and then another ten minutes of something different.. that would be awesome I think!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
I went today, b4 you posted, still not thinking clearly myself so I forgot the clicker. But it went well, and I only stayed for 10 min. Tomorrow I'll try what you suggested, much better idea. I'll bring her kong, and some other toys. She loves fetch, and she does real well with drop it. There is more chicken I can cutup. Miss Heidi Ho did very well today. Thank you Emmabeth! 
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
even after all Jacks progress, I will still drive to a quite place for him were the odds are it will be just him and I for 30 min to an hour. It isn't always the easiest to think of places you can drive to that dogs are allowed and there be no dogs, but it gets easier. and I feel it's worth ever minute of the work to do so.
good job on a successful day.
good job on a successful day.
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Thank you Jacksdad for the encouragement, and for your candid remarks about keeping Jack in calm places, even now, after all the work you've done with him. I just tried going out the door with Heidi when a woman walking 2 small terriers walked by in the street. Heidi went ballistic with barking and lunging; all the while I had her leash. I am so glad I hadn't opened the door yet. I think she could have crashed through our metal security gate with her strength so I held the leashes and closed the door. The woman walked onto our front yard with her dogs, talking on her cell phone. Fully illustrates why I need to continue going away from this busy area. Heidi did not calm down. I brought her back to the family room and she continued to display signs of being overly excited so I am forgoing the walk for at least a while. I will walk her in our backyard instead today; if she calms down. Earlier today we did clicker training and that is going marvelously. However, when people walk even 100 feet away at the cemetery, she becomes excited and tries to continuously sneak looking at them, and I am continuously trying to re-gain her focus before she "locks in" with that stare. She never did this until sometime after a year old. The behaviors snowballed.
Re: Serious dog reactive behavior need step by step action plan
Despite that setback I actually think you are making good progress - now you are looking for it you can see just how stressful somethings are for her and how long that stress takes to fade away again, knowing that sort of thing is key to fixing it!
When you are at the cemetery, if you get a situation like that again, get as much distance as you can and just work on her seeing the thing and getting a reward for looking back to you. So 'whats that' - reward - 'look at me' - reward etc etc, instead of fighting a losing battle trying to redirect her onto something not AS interesting as other people.
Keep up the good work
When you are at the cemetery, if you get a situation like that again, get as much distance as you can and just work on her seeing the thing and getting a reward for looking back to you. So 'whats that' - reward - 'look at me' - reward etc etc, instead of fighting a losing battle trying to redirect her onto something not AS interesting as other people.
Keep up the good work
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
